Scout1

Hi everybody,

Almost exactly two years ago I asked for help with losing coolant. Ended up being the head gasket. I had the heads re done at one of the best shops in town and used quality parts. Checked the block surface a million times and checked good. Took my time and did the job by the book and torqued everything to specs. Everything has been good up til now. Now I am seeing the same original symptoms. The coolant overflow fills up and is not going back into the radiator when it cools down. I tried another radiator cap and no help. I am going to try and test it this weekend to confirm my suspicions.

The car has never over heated and runs good. My question is what would have made the gasket go bad again? There must be some kind of defect for so many of us to have this problem. I had a neighbor down the street have his go bad too. Car runs really good so I guess I will be doing the job over this Christmas.

PMI

Thermostat, Fan Switch, etc?

Not every coolant circulation/engine overheating problem starts with the headgasket, but most do end up there.

Most thermostats fail open (causing the engine to run too cold while driving on cold days). But not all. When installed with the breather hole down, or some other less obvious issue, or clogged, or just not working and staying closed will cause all kinds of hard to pin down overheating from poor coolant circulation, localized heat buildup and uneven expansion... and guess what, headgasket is the next to go...

I would remove the thermostat and test it first, or just get a new one from a good aftermarket brand, or just the Honda dealer part. Then fan switch etc... or maybe reverse order, if replaced the thermostat recently (?)

Scout1

Like I said, this car has never overheated since we have owned it and it runs fine now. Two years ago I changed the thermostat, water pump and timing belt when I did the head gasket. I have noticed that even after the car has cooled down, when you take off the radiator cap you hear a PFFFT sound. No other car I have had does this. I cant tell yet if it is pressure or vacuum being released. I hope it is vacuum. Then it would still point to the cap. I have another civic so I may swap caps one more time.

Ed

PMI

If the coolant does not circulate properly, you will not see it overheating on the gauge.

In order for the engine to be cooled evenly, AND the gauge to show the correct temps, there has to be coolant flow. If the hot coolant does not reach the temp sensor, the gauge will not show the correct temperature.

The coolant is not returning to the engine and not reaching the proper level for some reason. My guess may not be correct, but there will be a reason for this.

thisguy357

try this... relieve the pressure from the cap with the car cold, then start it for 3-4 seconds(NOT long enough to warm up the coolant and create pressure in your cooling system) after the 3-4 seconds turn the car off and see if there is pressure in your radiator. mine built up pressure immediately

also did you change out the "water passage" gasket when u did the head gasket? there is an EGR port right next to a water passage


i edited post cuz i haz turrible grammar :P

Mad Dog Tannen

Feel the radiator when hot and running (unplug the fan so you don't get sliced). Feel for cool or cold spots. Feel lower radiator hose to see if it is cool or cold. Fell the upper to see if it is all hot (tip to tip). rev the engine to abut 3k and feel upper hoes for pressure build up (it will become hard and pressurized).

It could be a clogged radiator, like I just had.

Scout1

OK I will try and verify this too. I was just wondering why so many Civics have this problem. Has anyone figured out what Honda did. Did they not torque properly or use defective gaskets? Still wouldn't explain why my problem came back.

Ed

Scout1

Could you explain this "water passage gasket"? Not sure I know what this is.

Scout1

Getting ahead of myself right now. If I determine that the head gasket is the issue, should I get new head bolts? I just don't understand why the repair only lasted two years.

Ed

thisguy357

not sure what motor u have but the d17a1 and d17a2 do NOT use stretch bolts, they should be fine... did you clean the bolt holes out really well and put engine oil on the head bolts before assembly...if not you may have picked up debris when torqing the head, when that happens the bolt locks down prematurely and never completely crushes the head gasket.

http://www.stockwiseauto.com/product...pe8aAtxn8P8HAQ

its the place your upper rad hose goes to on the block...it has the EGR mounted to the top of it. exhaust gas from cylinder 4 passes through the middle small hole then is metered by the EGR and goes to the intake manifold via the other small hole and coolant flows through the 3rd (bigger)hole. so the coolant port and the cylnder 4 exhaust port are only spaced apart by the with of that gasket(less than a 1/4")....get what im saying ?

also what brand H/G did you use

Scout1

I used a Fel Pro head gasket set. I am old and that was two years ago LOL. I will look at a bunch of pictures that I took when I get home. I do remember blowing out the bolt holes with my compressor and I did put engine oil on the bolts. I will look at it when I get home. The gasket set had a bunch of gaskets in it and I tried to replace all that were disturbed. I know on a couple of places on the block there is not much gasket between the combustion and water ports. That may be part of a design issue. I believe it is the D17A2.

ezone

This and this.

The finish on the surface of the head after machining is very important too. It should be machined almost glass smooth, never rough like a belt sander hit it.

Scout1

When I got it back from the machine shop it was like new and the mating surface was like you said.

mikey1

yup!

this should be enough proof......

thisguy357

yeah but if u had blown your head gasket i would assume u would notice the loss of power, cuz u would be loosing compression. (mine was a slouch with a bad h/g) But u said it "runs really good". the water passage feeds off the exhaust side of the head(not inside the combustion chamber) so the only way u might notice it is IF it ended up fouling your 02 sensor(coolant leaking into the exhaust when the motor is off). it would not effect the driving much, if at all. Also it wouldn’t be detectable with a compression test or leak down test, but u would still detect carbon in the coolant.(the back pressure in your exhaust manifold would create a high pressure in your cooling system, pushing fluid into the overflow)

Think about it, im talking about a 5-10$ part that should be changed anyway, that only takes 10-20 minutes to change out while the head is on the car.....or $110+ H/G set and hours of work

ive never had a felpro H/G go out that quick not even on my 2000 Bonneville SSEI (supercharged stock) or "the 67" (its a hodgepodge high hp N/A camaro...it runs mid 11's and pops wheelies )

thisguy357

not sure why my quote didnt work (im new here)

mikey1

nope.....not with this engine

mikey1

now it makes sense, i missed this part,

should have went OEM

yup, definitely your HG

thisguy357

my '05 deff had power loss from the H/G.... u cant tell me he shouldnt replace the water passage gasket first, since he has to do it anyway. its 1/10th the price and 1/10th the time.

lol if u have a CAI it literally takes 10 min to change (+coolant burp)

mikey1

maybe in your case, not in all cases,

you know what happens when we assume things, you assumed wrong

loss of power is very rare with a blown HG on these engines

in most cases you will not notice any loss of engine performance whatsoever




this is enough evidence to conclude a blown HG.....

thisguy357

"this is enough evidence to conclude a blown HG....."

lol not for an actual mechanic, we troubleshoot everything even if we "know" whats wrong. the only thing coolant coming out of the over flow means is that compressed air is entering the cooling system from somewhere...
.
....u tell me not to assume stuff, and then u assume it's a head gasket without helping him troubleshoot his issue. u want him to get these parts correct?

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...arts-list.html

12251-PLC-004 Head Gasket
17055-PLD-004 Intake Mani (injector base) Gasket (17055-PLC-004 for non-VTEC)
18115-PLC-J01 Exhaust Mani Gasket
12210-PZ1-004 Valve Seal A (x8)
12211-PZ1-004 Valve Seal B (x8) (They lumped all 16 seals in the same bag, and they were all visually the same, so I'm sure the seal a's are the same as the seal b's. From the drawings, it looks like "a" is for the intake side, and "b" is for the exhaust side valves. Regardless, you get 16 total valve stem seals)
12342-P2A-005 Spark Plug Tube Seals (x4)
91213-P2F-A01 Camshaft Oil Seal
90442-PLC-000 Rubber grommet-washers for the (x5)
12341-PLC-000 Valve Cover Gasket
19411-PLC-003 Water Passage Gasket

^^ of course if he gets this set recommended by this forum it will fix his issue, do u see the name of that last gasket???

PMI

Quote:The coolant overflow fills up and is not going back into the radiator when it cools down.

No saying you are wrong, but can you please explain?

In my (limited) experience, the coolant would still go back as the pressure levels off. Are you assuming that exhaust gas is now displacing the coolant in the radiator? If so, then this would be easy to diagnose, the radiator would be at positive pressure even when cold, right??

mikey1

agreed.....

so if the compressed air is not coming from the combustion chamber, then tell me another way compressed air can enter the cooling system

thisguy357

Read MY second post

Attachment below shows how close the egr and coolant ports are together

thisguy357

PmI read my first post...after sitting all night I could start the car for a few seconds.NOT long enough to expand liquid..then turn off car and the radiator already had pressure...for the second part of that yes the coolant is SPRAYED all over my plastic intake plenum...oh and my head was within .0015" (father in law is a machinist and he was astonished because my car was "overheating" for 9 months of Texas summer ) I'm thinkin te exhaust bubbles at idle, after warm, are what makes the temp rise because u have hot exhaust gas trapped by your temp sensor...then one u take off the coolant circulates and the sensor cools down..

That's why I think he needs to replace the easy cheap part first

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

when you deleted part of his post, you deleted the "]" - that deactivated the "quote" system - I added the missing "]" and it's right now

You said it yourself You had loss of compression/power because the gasket was really bad
Mine was a small leak at the point i did change it - was loosing coolant slowly but surely

PMI, unsure of the mechanics for the coolant not going back into the radiator. The gases inside not enough vacuum to pull it back? Rad usually have pressure after cooling down (quite a lot of pressure leaking from the engine compression to the lower coolant pressure - typical of these engines for some reason. Also, some slow seeping cooling back - if you leave car for a week without firing the engine, the start is harder, some coolant spills. but if a day only, you won't see the problem. So i guess the radiator still have pressure left after cooling down, thus the coolant does not go back to it.

Edit: jeesus, why the forum automatically puts hyperlinks in the word radiator?!?

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

Scout1, try the pressure test first to make sure.

thisguy357

sdaidoji I had clogged egr passages and egr...the carbon build up was wet and slimy. I had the same issue after the head gasket along with a rough idle...soaking my egr fixed that...it was making me run lean at WOT. forgot to mention that.

thisguy357

If I start car now my radiator doesn't pressurize till the the car heats up like it's supposed to (lol just realized I forgot to get a new thermostat)

Edited...damn auto correct

PMI

Yes, I agree about the water passage gasket, and replacing the cheap part or parts first.