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the ELD is USDM only. they don't have them on JDM cars. so there has to be a way to remove it. if not, what about connecting amp wires after it inside the fuse box so the amp loads are detected? also, i don't see how the ELD would limit a HO alternator to 70A. all it does is tell the ECU to increase or decrease the field strength of the alternator based on detected load/voltage. so if you've got 100A of load detected, the ELD should continue to tell the ECU to increase field strength until the desired voltage is maintained. if this was done, and due to the fluctuations of a stereo system, i think a CAP would help to stabilize things so the ELD and alt don't get burned out.

christmaspie, have you physically/electrically verified that the ELD is not capable of requesting output over 70A? if so, how did you do it? what method?

 
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u talkin about my reply??? I meant over stock. I have a 3 FARD cap and it assisted my battery in lasting 3 years. Still had headlight drainage problems when turned up. How about an alt. and voltage regulator combo?

 
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i'm at 6 years and 97k miles on the original stock battery. 3 years isn't too good if you needed a 3F cap to do it.

 
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no i just got the 3 fard just for gp cause it cant hurt anything. Makes the Audiobahn 12" hit harder check out my pic on that thread https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4291650

 
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except your wallet!

 
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Unfortunately I don’t have access to any JDM wiring as I do for US spec. So I can’t shed any light on the differences between the two setups.


Well I’ve taken a hard look at this. There are two issues, the first is the 80A fuse right before the ELD and the second is physically integrating power wires after the ELD (in the fusebox).

I’m sure we are all aware of the rules about replacing fuses with a larger value. This is for a number of reasons. One of the biggest concerns is current handling capability of the next component(s) down the line. So here we have an exact example of a situation where we don’t know what will happen if the fuse is replaced with a larger value.

We have to admit we have no idea how the ELD will actually respond with a load larger than 80A. It is possible it was engineered to be able to handle current to a much larger value. However, we just don’t know for sure. If we could get a Honda engineer in here we might get a better idea.

As far as wiring after the ELD, I pulled all the bolts holding the fuse box of my car in so I could get the best access to it. After studying it, my feeling was there wasn’t a safe way to add two 4AWG wires (my minimum requirement) to the post that comes out of the ELD. This isn’t to say it couldn’t be done some way. But I didn’t feel very good about it without some serious modifications.


Well, the main issue with the ELD is that it measures current. So we know (by looking @ the previous wire diagrams) the current from the aftermarket stereo doesn’t go thru the ELD. So, the ELD can’t see 100A of load (as it is currently setup). The concern is the power being drawn off the battery (for aftermarket amplifiers, etc.) bypasses the ELD.

So we know most the ELD can see is the 80A that passes thru it right before the fuse would blow. (Again, we don’t know for sure how the ELD will function pass 80A w/o further testing.)

Now it is possible that when the aftermarket alternator is designed some of these issues are taken into account. For example, one implementation that comes close to “fixing” the issue would be a table like this:

Signal to factory alternator----Current output of aftermarket alternator
----------10A--------------------------------20A
----------50A-------------------------------100A
----------75A-------------------------------150A

Here we are just talking about a 2 to 1 ratio. So when the signal to the factory alternator would be to output 75A, the HO alt actually sends out its full 150A. Now I don’t want anyone to think this is how aftermarket alternators for our civic are designed. I can’t confirm that. However, it would be one way of getting more power out of the alt keeping in mind the ELD. This method would not be ideal at all however.

The ideal setup would be some way to measure the current that bypasses the ELD (using an electromagnetic pickup of some sort) for your aftermarket equipment and have a way for that current to be produced IN ADDDITION to the existing vehicle demands (that the ELD takes care of).


Nope. My concerns are all theoretical. I guess I don’t want to be the guy who fries my ELD if it can’t handle that extra current.

But, until I can find an alternator manufacturer who can be more detailed about these concerns I’m hesitant to think a HO alt will be all that useful.

I realize this **** is way complex and probably doesn't make any sense. This isn't meant to be an "I am right and no one else is" tirade but I just can't see a good way to get the current neglected by the ELD into the picture. At least it's interesting stuff to think about.

 
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well, we could debate this all day, but in your own words, you have not verified that your statements are valid. they are all theoretical. i understand your concerns, but until any of this is tested and verifed, i think it incorrect to tell people that a HO alternator is a waste of money and won't do any better than a stock alternator when there's several members here that have HO alts on 7th gens and say they fixed their voltage issues. and no, this stuff is not too technical and it all makes perfect sense to me. if you know anything about my background, you'd understand that i understand it all perfectly.

 
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First of all, never did I say "waste of money". After looking back thru this thread the only person who said anything along those lines was you in reference to capacitors (remember that wallet comment you made). You even put in that little laugh face because you were laughing at the guy (I imagine, in your mind, because you thought his comments were trite.) Please don't attribute comments you've made to other people, that's unprofessional.

Here's a good sum up of what I've said:
"My point is if you go the route of upgrading your alternator to (for example) a high output Alterstart, you will not see the benefit w/o some other modifications."

I'd love to see some information of someone with a 7th gen civic, aftermarket electrical equipment, and an HO alt that takes the current from the aftermarket setup into account.

Perhaps you can answer this question DEFINITIVELY: How does an aftermarket HO alt charge the battery completely to reflect the current drawn off the battery which has bypassed the ELD in a 7th gen vic?

 
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you should take your own advice, because you took my comment out of context. my comment was in refernce to buying a 3F cap. i don't care who you are, that's going to take a chunk out of your wallet. no where in that context did i say that caps were a waste. i know what caps do and i know they have a place. if you want to fix visual dimming of headlights at night, a cap is probably your ticket. if you want to fix the problem that our car's charging system is weak, then no, a cap won't do it. you need a bigger alt as many people have bought.

i really don't care to prove it definitively. that's not my job. that's the manufacturer's job. i'm sure if you took the electrical equipment to the people's houses that have them, they'd be happy to help out.


i rest my case. how do you know you need modifications when you have no first hand experience by you own words?

 
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I know modifications are needed (ex. outboard voltage regulator possibly) because I understand how the factory equipment works. In many cars the alternator is regulated by battery voltage. Not true in our and many Hondas. So it’s a real issue.

People get an HO alt because they added a bunch of accessories. The current that powers these accessories doesn’t go thru the ELD. The ECM doesn’t tell the alternator to work any harder than it tells the factory. Now it’s possible for the aftermarket alt to use some conversion table (possibly in conjunction with different pulley size, etc.) to affect these concerns but no manufacturer I’ve found states that. So the only way to get from that point to a place where the alternator works ideally is to assume that it “just works”. I’m not that kind of person. I am interested in understanding this definitively.

In specific regard to your questions on my tests with the ELD - no manufacturers out there (at least that I'm aware of) state you must integrate your aftermarket equipment into the fusebox, thru the ELD. So the ability of the ELD to handle 150A isn't really all that relevant. It's just an interesting sidebar. Plus I'm obviously not going to start bypassing fuse values to test a theory that would have to be implemented outside the manufacturer anyway.

 
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This ELD talk is making my head spin. Can someone tell me what I need to do in order to figure out how to fix my electrical issues? I need to take the strain off the battery and make sure enough power is readily available for the stereo and air ride compressor. Do I need to check something with the stock alternator system? Is it something I can ask Honda? Or should I make a post asking people who actually have upgraded their alternators?

 
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If you're getting an HO alt, try to find something that uses it's own voltage regulator (either outboard or internal to the alt). Unfortunately I haven't found one like that yet.

 
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This guy is the ****^

Im MECP certified too, got it when I left BBY and started my own company with a friend.
-you know they changed the rating, and there is no First Class anymore?


Seriously guys, how come no one ever asked what his specs are on the radio he is running?

He could be running 600watts (MAX) worth of amps, that's under 700watts (MAX).

People run that stock without a problem, so u get a 1-3 Farad cap, and upgrade your ground wires,

...maybe..maybe..get a battery, you'll eventually need one in the long run, they don't last forever, so u mine-as well upgrade when u need to buy one.

And if someone says capacitors don't do anything I will slap them. LOL

 
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It's a computer with the speakers running off a 4 channel 120 watt amp and the subwoofer running from a 325 watt bridged 2 channel amp. Then there's the compressor for the air ride and all the OEM stuff.

You recommend using a capacitor but that simply provides constant power to my electrical items......that's fine but what about the strain on my alternator and battery? It hasn't changed. Using a capacitor is like taking pain medication for a sore back. You still tear up your back doing normal activities, you just can't feel the effects right away.

 
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you need to find a 80-100 amp alt and upgrade the ground with 4ga. from batt. - chassie - and trans. Then run 4ga from alt directly to batt. with a in-line 100 amp fuse. AND GET A DEEP CYCLE DRY CELL BATT.

 
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Normally I'd say a starting battery for the CCA's but since you have a computer that will probly be on for quite some time.

What HP is the compressor?
I really missed the air ride part of this post, IDK man, Id say get both, you'll probly need the alt if you pull up to a highschool and see some cheerleaders walk out ull turn up the music, start rockin the car w/air, and have the computer playin as you play CS in the car. -LOL

I say go for a 120HO alt and deepcycle battery. The cap would only really help the subs during a brief peak, everything you have would be on for too long for a cap to help, but a cheap 1 farad wouldn't hurt...think of it as fancy voltage regulator.

 
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Haha, yes I do know that. But when I passed it four years ago that's what they called it. Anyway, I just passed my Master last week so no more worries about Silver/Advanced/First Class and all that.

 
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Okay........so I'm going to start with a battery this weekend and I have a few questions.

1. Which battery should I go with? I heard here the Optoma yellow top but the guy at Pep Boys was going on about the red top being better, I can't remember why. Something about deep cycle maybe.

2. Will it fit? Our cars have a pretty skinny battery so I was wondering which modifications I should do to keep it in place.

3. I'll worry about the alternator in a few weeks for a separate upgrade. That's fine right?

 
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I guess that answers one of my questions. Are one of the Optomas dry cell?

 
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yellow top = deep cycle
red top = starter battery

I think a deep cycle is just fine with our cars, they only have a little starter motor which won't need much juice to crank. There is some talk of the group 51 (our size) yellow top draining over time. I haven't had that issue though.

 
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Wait, the yellow top comes in different sizes?

 
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Yeah I think they make 7 different sizes. http://www.optimabatteries.com/optim...cs.php#yellow1

 
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Well it's been over a year since I started this post but now I've got cash in hand and I'm ready to start buying. Where's the best place in Canada to order an alternator from? Brand? Output? I read 80-100 as a good output, someone else said 120.

And for the battery I'm reading a group 51 Optima Yellow Top, then upgrade all the wiring to/from each to 4 gauge.

I'm looking forward to being able to simultaneously being able to run heat/headlights/computer again.

 
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stock output is 70A. i'd say 120 minimum if you're wanting an upgrade.