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Old 12-10-2012   #1
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How much clearance do I need

between the strut and the lip of the rim?


Here's the deal:
Scored a set of 5 spoke 18x8 wheels from a 2011 Accord 2 door V6 today.
Like these




I want to stick them on my 12 Civic. They will bolt on.
I got the tire size figured out, that ain't the issue.

I stuck the bare wheels on, I have about 3mm clearance between the rim and the strut.

Is 3mm enough room, or will I need spacers?



Thanks.
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Old 12-11-2012   #2
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Pretty sure you'll be fine without spacers.
Remember, when you lower the car back to the ground, the whole wheel moves up.

I was freaking out with a 17x7.5 because the rear lip of the rim was so close to the wheel well when no tire was on.

But I got the tires installed and put it on, lowered the car back down, there was plenty of room.
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Old 12-11-2012   #3
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennykid2002 View Post
Remember, when you lower the car back to the ground, the whole wheel moves up.
This is just MacPherson strut, not upper and lower control arms.
So the gap between the rim and the strut will be constant, no matter the suspension height.




I'm worried about how much flex there could possibly be during normal driving (dynamic), that is the only thing that will change the 3mm gap (static) I now have.

If there is enough flex or movement under sideways loads, I'm worried the lip of the rim can contact the strut.

Spirited driving?
Track abuse? (I don't do that, but I sometimes corner hard.)
I kinda figured someone that abuses a car on the track might have some idea of how much movement/flex (deflection in the hub and bearing? IDK if I'm using the correct terms) might happen.

SO....How much movement can there possibly be?
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Old 12-11-2012   #4
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Ah, you're talking about the strut itself.
I was talking about the wheel well wall.

I have no idea.
Only option is to find out is find someone who runs an 8" or 9" wide rim on the 2012.
Or throw em on to find out yourself.

I'm not sure how much play there is when driving, perhaps asking someone who autocrosses often, like sdaidoji.

From my best guess, there shouldn't be any play at all. Since the rim is secured to the hub, it should move as a unit.
But then again, I could be completely wrong.
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Old 12-11-2012   #5
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Kenny, yer forgetting the bearings play

Ezone,

most of the flex is on the surface contact part, it should unload on the upper portion. (I have seem a video of a NSX test, with camera on the side pointing the rear wheels, the rims had a lot more flex than i ever tought would be... wow)
concerning the suspension flex itself,as long as the bearings don't have much play it *should* be safe (not sure, i run only 7" in the 02)
8" is actually quite wide...

also, consider that the condition that the suspension will make the wheel come closer to strut is in the inside wheel of corner, it will have less load on that side.
3mm would start worrying me, though... if you prefer to feel safer, try spacer, but you might start having rubbing issues on the fender

g'luck!
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Old 12-11-2012   #6
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdaidoji View Post
Kenny, yer forgetting the bearings play

Ezone,

most of the flex is on the surface contact part, it should unload on the upper portion. (I have seem a video of a NSX test, with camera on the side pointing the rear wheels, the rims had a lot more flex than i ever tought would be... wow)
I think I have seen something similar, now that you mention it. Amazing how something that appears solid and rigid can move so much when force is applied.


Quote:
concerning the suspension flex itself,as long as the bearings don't have much play it *should* be safe (not sure, i run only 7" in the 02)
8" is actually quite wide...
Yeah, these wheels look freekin HUGE compared to the steelies. I actually installed one of the rims with the Accord size tire (235-45-18) still mounted on it, and it actually bolted on. It didn't have enough tire clearance to actually drive it though, I was aware of how much tires can move around while driving and they weren't my tires to use.



I plan on a 225/40/18 tire.



Honda sells 18x7 with 215/40/18 in the accessory section for 12 Si.
These didn't seem that much bigger-- on paper.
Quote:


also, consider that the condition that the suspension will make the wheel come closer to strut is in the inside wheel of corner, it will have less load on that side.
I understand the huge difference in the lateral loads placed on inner and outer tires/wheels while cornering and which direction those forces will push the tops of the rims, but I still assumed the inside tire would still contribute some amount of grip, therefore causing some amount of flex while doing so.
Just had no idea how much would be likely or possible.

Quote:
3mm would start worrying me, though... if you prefer to feel safer, try spacer, but you might start having rubbing issues on the fender
I was really hoping to avoid spacers, I didn't want to screw with the geometry of the front suspension. These rims are perfect as long as tire diameter remains the same, overall geometry will remain as original.
(I went through a bit of that when I put the lowrider together and started messing with tire diameters and finding out how they affected the feel while driving.)

Think flat washers slipped over the studs sounds safe? LOL. (I'm only half serious.)

I am actually considering chucking the wheels on the brake lathe and trimming the inside lips down a couple mm. just to avoid having to use spacers.


They didn't APPEAR like they would interfere with the fender lips, but I haven't checked with tires on it yet.
I'm still hesitating on committing to a $grand$ worth of tires or more.
If I get a set of tires that only cost $500, I know damn good and well I will get exactly what I paid for.
Quote:

g'luck!
These are the sort of answers I was hoping for. Thanks!
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Old 12-11-2012   #7
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Re: How much clearance do I need

just to comment on the washers... they will have a lot less contact surface to the hub compared to specifically designed spacers (not many spacers thin enough for your case, though...), but i guess you are one that i do not need to say that

used tires just to test car out would be a cheap azz way to ensure it is not going to cause troubles, but i quess main issue is if wheel would hit strut...

again, just to make sure, the top of the wheels (where interference with strut might play a role) are unloaded so not flexing during cornering
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Old 12-11-2012   #8
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdaidoji View Post
just to comment on the washers... they will have a lot less contact surface to the hub compared to specifically designed spacers (not many spacers thin enough for your case, though...), but i guess you are one that i do not need to say that
I know, I know.
It's not safe, it's dangerous, bla bla bla.



New dilemma:
Been staring at tire choices....

Do all of the higher performance low profile tires have a huge lip that hangs over the bead of the rim? This could take my 3mm clearance down to nuthin in a hurry.
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Old 12-11-2012   #9
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Re: How much clearance do I need

as a rule, all tires below 45 have the rim guards... too many drivers hitting the curbs when parking.... Sorry to say...

50 aspect ratio are a mix, all below it will have them, exception to race tires, but they not DOT legal...
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Old 12-11-2012   #10
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Dang.
Ok, I'll have to work with that.


Any opinion on these? I'm used to Michelins already and kinda scared of everything else LOL. These looked like probably a good all around choice. (I really drive like a grandma most of the time.)
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....omCompare1=yes


Don't know if that link works

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSe...tpackage=false

Pilot Sport A/S Plus(Ultra High Performance All-Season)

Last edited by ezone; 12-11-2012 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012   #11
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Re: How much clearance do I need

all-seasons?

I personally I'd get summer/winter tires. You'd have a wider range of performance tire options.

I picked up a brand new set of Toyo Observe on rims from the wrecker last year for $350 out the door. It will handle better and be grippier in the cold weather (not necessarily snow).
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Old 12-11-2012   #12
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Man, 3 sets of new tires might last me the rest of my life. LOL

Yes, all seasons and I expect them to last a dang lifetime for the price....
Like I said, I drive like a granny most of the time. Also low miles yearly, and I have other modes of transportation.
FWIW I dislike directional tires but it seems I'm not going to be able to avoid them.
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Old 12-12-2012   #13
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Re: How much clearance do I need

I guess I'm committed now. Just ordered a set of tires.
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Old 12-13-2012   #14
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Like I said, Sandro's a lot more experienced in this field.
Good luck. Hope everything works out.
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Old 12-13-2012   #15
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Tires arrived this AM. New TPMS sensors too.
Bossman rolled one out and was marveling at how wide they look just laying on the floor.

Tires are mounted on the rims. Lip/bead overhang appears to be 1mm or less.
Still not on the car yet. (Lunch break is about over already.)



Did a post get pulled? Spam or something?
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Old 12-13-2012   #16
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Re: How much clearance do I need

OK they are on the car.

18x8 Accord Coupe wheelz
225-40-ZR 18 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus tires
No spacers
No rub







I know the car is dirty.
Now it needs lowered.

Found out I can't rewrite the TPMS low pressure warning threshold without a special code that comes with a set of factory approved accessory tires. Gotta look into that next.
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Old 12-13-2012   #17
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Do the 2012's still have rear drums???
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Old 12-13-2012   #18
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Looks good
How's the clearance looking like?
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Old 12-13-2012   #19
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjones7755 View Post
Do the 2012's still have rear drums???
Mine does. It's an LX. I'm a cheap bastard.
EX and Si get disc.



Looks kinda naked without a caliper back there.
Looks like I have enough room to stuff in some bigazz Brembos off of an Acura TL S Type. LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennykid2002 View Post
Looks good
How's the clearance looking like?
Thanks.
Still have about 3mm between the strut and rim with the car on the ground (actually checked on a drive-on alignment lift).
Sidewall of the tire is still only as wide as the overall rim width, so it doesn't hit anything.
Rim is actually about 9 inches wide when measured between the outside edges of the bead lips.

Full range of turning, no contact.
Drove around the block and drove it home now, no rub noticed so far.

The car is not lowered, but it looks like there would probably be no issues with fender lip clearance if I ever do lower it. I probably wouldn't drop far enough to tuck anyway.

Maybe I need to stick 800 lbs on the front bumper to see what clearance is like?


The tires are a lot louder, but the ride is actually pretty comparable to the stock high efficiency Firestones (fuel fighter tires?) so far (only rolled like 8 miles though).
I can tell these tires have a lot of rolling resistance. I bet I'm going to lose some gas mileage because of this.
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Old 12-13-2012   #20
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Re: How much clearance do I need

That's a huge *** rim lol.
Well, only thing you can do is monitor it now.

If you do lower it, the max i'd go is 1.5~2.0" max.
I think those rims would look slightly weird slammed.

But damn, almost $200 per tire for loud tires and high rolling resistance?
I know you said you're biased to Michelin, but did you not consider the Potenza RE970AS's?
They have slightly better numbers, and they a tad cheaper. (Treadwear is higher by a full point too)
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Old 12-13-2012   #21
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennykid2002 View Post

But damn, almost $200 per tire for loud tires and high rolling resistance?
Don't forget shipping and tax. I got a tiny discount through work, but after adding the other stuff on it still added up to nearly the advertised total.



Quote:
I know you said you're biased to Michelin, but did you not consider the Potenza RE970AS's?
They have slightly better numbers, and they a tad cheaper. (Treadwear is higher by a full point too)
Man, I must have spent 4 hours reading on the Tire Rack website.

I did look at Bridgestones, because I had some good luck with them in the past....

Reviews on that B/S Potenza:http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....+Pole+Position


I saw these, and I passed on them.

7,000 Miles on Tires December 11, 2012
First snow of the season was this week. These tires are totally unsafe to drive on even over light, packed snow or over icy patches. Almost could not make it up my driveway or up a minor hill. Traction control went wild! Car slid side to side as it crawled to the garage.

Cannot imagine how TireRack surveys can rate these tires as excellent in ice and snow. They should never be used in the winter! Tomorrow they come off the car until next spring.


Next review:

50 Miles on Tires
December 10, 2012
Do not drive this tire in snow or ice conditions. It is positively deadly. I have only 50 miles on the tread, and we just had our first snow of the year. I live in the city so the roads were plowed, leaving a 1/2" of hard pack / ice on the road. No amount of feathering the brakes or gas could get the car to stop or start with anything approaching reasonable safety. I had to very carefully plan my route home from the local Caribou Coffee so that I would avoid any sort of incline, because I knew I would get stuck.

We get winter here sometimes. The tread on these Pilots looks pretty aggressive for a low pro tire.
I have the originals ready to go back on if need be. I just have to make it to work to do so.




They actually sound like they pick gravel up off of the road and sling them at the bottom of the car. On purpose. LOL
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Old 12-13-2012   #22
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Re: How much clearance do I need

They are all seasons after all.

Maybe you could keep your stock rims, and put winter tires on them.
If you kept them that is.

I know for a fact that if it was here in Cali, I would have picked the Bridgestones downright.
We never get any snow around here, so when I was searching for tires, I didn't even bother to look at the snow/ice ratings.
Rain I still look at, but other than that, it was noise, comfort, and tread as priority.
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Old 03-27-2013   #23
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Re: How much clearance do I need

Dang! This looks good! How did I miss it?
Really dig those rims on there. Looks natural, yet sooo dirty at the same time
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Old 03-27-2013   #24
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Re: How much clearance do I need

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Dang! This looks good! How did I miss it?
Really dig those rims on there. Looks natural, yet sooo dirty at the same time
LOL Thanks!
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Old 04-25-2013   #25
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Re: How much clearance do I need

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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
Don't forget shipping and tax. I got a tiny discount through work, but after adding the other stuff on it still added up to nearly the advertised total.




Man, I must have spent 4 hours reading on the Tire Rack website.

I did look at Bridgestones, because I had some good luck with them in the past....

Reviews on that B/S Potenza:http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....+Pole+Position
Man, I wish I noticed this post sooner, sorry!

I have the RE970AS PP on my car an I do a LOT of winter driving. Compared to my first two sets of tires (Riken Raptor and some Michelen AS I can't remember...) these have been extremely good on snow and ice.

In years previous, I couldn't even get my car started up a small incline, but with the Potenzas I've never had that issue. They tend to be a bit fishy on ice (mostly due to my camber adjustments) but they have a ton of grip and work very well under controlled braking. Either those reviewers don't know how to drive properly in winter conditions, or those tires are not a good match for their vehicle.

Take it from my experience that the Potenza RE970AS is a great tire on the Civic, and I'm very confident in its winter driving capabilities.
I actually think these tires do better on ice/snow than they do in heavy rain, which is the only situation where they aren't amazing.
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