brassfit

Hello - I really hope you can help me figure out what's wrong with my 2002 7th gen Civic sedan.
I bought it last summer and I've almost had it for a year. During that time, I've replaced the front control arms, ball joints, front wheel bearings, struts, strut bearings, and associated bushings.

The vehicle is ->refusing<- to self center after I have turned a corner and it's nearly impossible to figure out why. I have gotten it aligned before, and I have also replaced the steering rack. The steering rack is an electric one where you connect two sockets into it, and there's an electric motor on top of the rack itself to power it. So this is not a hydraulic system like some people are used to. Still not working.

When the vehicle is turned off, battery measures 12.5 volts or so, and therefore I don't think it's an electric error. But I'm desperate to get this fixed. I think I sometimes notice it's more willing to return in right turns, but in general I can literally let go of the steering wheel and allow the car to continue in the turn, there's hardly any signs of it wanting to return to center if I'm in the middle of a tight corner and letting go of the steering wheel.

The reason I stress about this is because I live in Norway and we have inspections every 2 years here, and the car is due for its inspection soon and I did a pre-inspection a while back and the Civic failed due to this problem, with this case being the only thing I haven't repaired yet. To make it even worse, I'm entering the Air Force in April and if I don't get the car to pass by then, I most likely have to just remove its registration - and that's going to make it even harder to get it registered / inspected later.

I beg you for help, this has been bothering me for months now, and I have no idea how to fix it. I brought the car to a Honda dealer / repair garage 2 hours away for this exact issue and they recommended I change the rack - so I did. It didn't help and I'm running out of hope.

Any help is much appreciated.

ezone

I'm in North America. Up to 2002 EPS was only offered to our market in the Insight, S2000, and the Civic SI which was a hatchback with the K20 engine. Regular coupe and sedan Civics used hydraulic steering here.

First thought.....Disable all electrical operations of the electric steering, then drive the car. If it continues to steer poorly, this should tell you the problem is physical/mechanical, not electronic.


*sips coffee, adjusts thinking cap*


Did you get a printout of the alignment numbers, can you post that?

You got a USED rack I assume? Could it have come from a crashed car? That might explain your troubles. A bent (warped, tweaked) rack gear is certain to bind more to one side than the other

Rack itself, does the steering feel heavy in both directions? Prior to installation, I might have clipped some locking pliers to the pinion shaft and move the steering gear throughout the full range of travel by hand while noting how much pressure is required to turn the pinion (not scientifically accurate, but if the rack binds in one direction as you describe, I'd expect to be able to feel it this way)

Otherwise, maybe gearbox adjustments such as the rack guide need checked and adjusted?



Steering column: Steering wheel and shaft and swivel joints must be able to rotate freely without unusual drag. The steering shaft is mounted in bearings, to drag is expected to be negligible of course. If there is any drag or bind, the EPS torque sensor could interpret that as a steering wheel input and cause the EPS to continue assisting in the direction the torque sensor believes you are holding the steering wheel

I'm not sure this applies to the car you have, but this is available in much newer EPS systems: After rack was replaced, did you erase and relearn torque sensor values? (EPS capable scanner is needed)


I've experienced binding after trying to lower a subframe (just 1/2 cm or so), the collapsible splined steering shaft extended but did not retract when the subframe was reinstalled, and that caused binding and difficult steering, and it was solved by loosening the swivel joints so the column shaft could 'relax'....

Struts, while disconnected from the steering tie rods, need to be able to swivel freely upon just the ball joint and upper bearing.

brassfit

Your reply is much, much appreciated! I hope we can maybe establish a dialogue here, because you seem very knowledgeable and like the person I need right now.

I did think about disconnecting the power supply / wires leading to the electrical motor / rack itself, but it's only now when you mention it as a step to find the fault that I figured it'd be a good idea. I'm going to do it tomorrow when it's daylight (time is 19:21 here at the moment) and I promise to report back here.
When it comes to the alignment, I forgot about the papers when I was there, and when I called back later to ask for them, they had thrown them away- the guy on the phone did reassure me the caster was correct, though.

The rack is used, yep - a new one from Honda would've been $2000, I got a used one from a wrecker that set me back $320, it came with inner and outer tie rods. The car I got it from had been in a crash that affected the front end, but the rack did not appear damaged and the symptoms with this new rack are identical to the old rack. It had been checked by the wrecker, and they said I could return it if it didn't fit.

When it comes to my own testing of the rack - I'm very fresh when it comes to steering systems and it's only with this (bad?) purchase of mine that I have started working on cars more beyond changing oil and basic maintenance that I performed on my previous vehicles. I guess locking pliers on the pinion shaft would basically mean that I should try to twist the end the steering wheel connects to, to see if the rack moves? I didn't do that on the new (used) rack, but I have the old rack available right here, and I could try to do this on the old rack.

Should I be able to move the rack when it's detached from the vehicle by twisting the end that should come through the firewall to the steering wheel? I'm actually going to try that right now, on the old one.

When it comes to the steering wheel, - when I removed the rack then I made sure to not move the steering wheel to either side as I read there would be cables that I could risk twisting off if I didn't put the steering wheel on the way (/orientation) it came off. But I did turn it left and right to get a feel for how easy it was to turn, and it was super easy - like a well greased bearing.
I'm considering if I should apply WD-40 or similar to the joint that connects the steering rack unit to the steering wheel shaft, but I'm afraid it'll dry out or otherwise impact the grease that's on there from before.

I didn't touch the subframe fortunately - I managed to pull the steering rack out from above by removing the air resonator box and relocating some hoses and lines. Barely got it out the top without damaging anything. I do wonder if the subframe is affected somehow, but I see no signs from a collision or similar.

When I disconnect the tie rod ends from the struts, they move around relatively free. I need to use both hands to move them, but it's not too difficult. It would naturally be easier with the wheels on, to get more momentum. The Honda garage with what I assume are experienced mechanics (so I hope!) said they believed the rack was the problem as things became stiff and tough to handle when the rack was connected. Reading over this, it sounds like it's super difficult to move the struts but it's really not- you can't do it with your little finger, but a whole hand of force should be able to move the assembly itself (with the rack disconnected) and if you use both hands then you can easily move it, basically.

You're giving me more hope with your insight in this, I was just about to give up because this is really, really bothering me!

ezone

Doh!


I understand not all countries have identical cars even in the same years with the same names, so.....
Is your car like our NA 7th gens, the rack is located up high on the firewall and tie rods both attach at the center of the rack?

Hybrid Civic used EPS in 2003, I think it's roughly the same as the SI a year prior

Our Civic Hybrid EPS rack in NA (pic):




Your EPS electric motor is like the pic above, attached to the steering rack, not the column in the dash? (we have cars here that use both configurations now)

How or when did your symptoms begin with the original rack? Can you associate it with any other event, such as mechanic work or damage?


On other rack designs (tie rods attach to outer ends instead of the center) I've encountered cars that suffered internal damage to the steering gear (bent rack, chipped gear teeth) after an accident, without obvious external damage

Sure.
For the one already in the car, you could disconnect the tie rods and use the steering wheel.....assuming you've already made sure the column and joints portion of the steering system is not dragging or binding in any way

Sure. I'm not sure how to describe the feeling though...you have to consider you will also be causing the electric motor to spin whenever you move the unit manually, so that will add some feeling of initial resistance, so take that into account.
Once you start movement it should feel pretty even from one end to the other, until you stop moving.
Ya, the clockspring (Hondas name=cable reel) circuits for the air bag are delicate


Good

Hey, ummmm, the orientation of that swivel joint is important too!

If you didn't get the joint and shaft clocked correctly, it may steer weird because a universal joint does not move both shafts equally while it's at an angle (but I doubt that would make it bind up)


Shop manual download link (here) (66.5mb) for several world market Civic models, steering is section 17 is about in the middle of the PDF
Page 17-10 describes joint and shaft orientation for correct assembly (image seemed just a little fuzzy to me but readable)
Page 17-13 describes rack guide adjustment
Plus lots of other handy info
I doubt that will help but I don't think it will really hurt either, though it may attract lint/dust/dirt

I was only trying to relate a binding situation I encountered (caused) while doing other work on a completely different car.

Really, that sounds about right.
Even if a strut/spring assembly is removed from the car, the bearing plate on the top of the strut (some call it a strut cap) just about requires using both hands to make it turn while it's under all the pressure of the coil spring

Consider too, the bearings on top of the struts must support the weight of the front end of the car as well when the wheels are on the ground....which is a bit different from having the car raised in the air with the wheels dangling off the ground
I'm half a planet away from you and I can't see the car LOL

brassfit

I'm back with more information! But first - about how the rack looks like, I made a video so I could show you along with the driving characteristics of the car itself. I'll link it further down in this post.
And the symptoms never really "appeared", because I bought the car with the symptoms and I didn't really pay attention to how it was like to drive as I had a limited time to test drive it, and it was in a foreign city where I didn't know where to drive. I do regret not testing it more, that's for sure.

I downloaded the shop manual and I'll give it a good look tonight! I really appreciate the link.

Here's the video, and it's recorded with the two cables going to the steering rack taken of, so no power steering as a way to eliminate if it's electrical:

Any ideas? The feedback is much appreciated, I really want to get this sorted and I promise to update this post as I go.

ezone

Have you driven another identical Civic with EPS to see if it drives/acts similar?


Looks like you tug the wheel to the left and let go, and it will return and wants to continue to go to the right....and when you steer to the right it kinda stays there
You sure this isn't a tire induced pull or alignment pull?

Then at the end you make a left turn and the steering wheel kinda stays there...
Check the 'rack guide adjustment' (preload)?
Maybe a combination of both adjustment and pull?

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

if tires, change them around like front go rear, change corners, etc

ezone

^swap front tires side to side, see if the condition changes, or changes sides

brassfit

I'll look into the tires later on, it's a good idea. We do have winter / summer tires here though, and I notice no difference when I drive with the other set.

When I disconnected the rack to see if this was mechanical or electrical, the EPS lamp remains on even when I plug the rack back in. I'm so tired of this and I'm running out of time and motivation (the EPS lamp being on even when I double check the connection to the rack kills my drive to continue) so I contacted a 'local' (2 hours away, but it's the closest Honda) garage / dealer and I'm hoping they can figure out what's wrong. I wrote them a 2 page document that explains what I have done and the history of the car as I know it, and I also linked to this forum and this post. They are also the same place that helped me source the new (but used) steering rack, so after many free of charge phone calls to get advice, I feel like it might be time to put the car back to them so they can look at it themselves again.

Thank you for your efforts and while I'm now so demotivated that I'm not going to continue to work on this car myself (and I'm running out of time and I have other things to do to prepare for my basic training), I promise I'm going to update this thread with the results after I have delivered the car to them. I'll try to give this thread an update in the ending (and during), and hopefully there's a positive end to it all. If anything, this thread will climb the search results and other people might benefit from it.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

Good lucky!

000111

Did you ever manage to get this fixed?

brassfit

I did not. I ended up bringing my Civic to a Honda dealer / mechanic that also did inspections for the government.
Basically telling them what I had done, (replacing the steering rack and basically everything in front) and they couldn't correct it themselves either. So they approved it and the Civic passed its inspection. But now it's due for an inspection again, and I fear I'll have to fight my way through it again.

The car still isn't steering the way other vehicles do. It's not a problem to drive, it's just not up to the standards set by the EU, which my country was inspired by.

Mikk Ba

Did you figure this out? I have 2004 EU3 civic with exact same problem, super annoyed by that steering.

Harry Brown

Hi, out of curiosity did you manage to sort this I also have this issue and not to clued up on civics as I only got it yesterday cheers

Mikk Ba

no, i never did, just driving like it is.

Memoremix

I recently did the eps conversion in my em2 and it works fine at a stop or when parking, but once I reach certain speed such as 15 mph it feels like the eps turns off. It is such a low speed for it to feel turned off because at 15 mph the steering assist is still needed. I used a 2004 eps rack from a civic hybrid and a 2003 eps module from another civic hybrid. Does anyone know if unmatched parts could be my problem?