Rep Power: 0

I am having problems with my 96 civic ex. It will not start when cold. I have tried everything I can think of:

it has spark
it has compression
can hear fuel pump
battery is good
changed distrubator
new starter
new intake air temp sensor
new spark plugs/ wires

I can not think of anything else. I am in need of help solving this problem. If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.

 
Rep Power: 243

Does it crank over and eventually start?

Only has problem when its cold, does it happen to be after it sits overnight? Fuel pump could be weak and not holding a prime.

 
Rep Power: 0

If it sits more than like 3 hours. It will not start at all. I can sometimes get it to start if I get it in a garage with a heater. When you loosen the bolt at the fuel rail and turn the key on fuel sprays everywhere.

 
Rep Power: 518

It looks like you fired the parts cannon, but I don't see a coolant temp sensor on your list. Nor do I see a PCM.


Handy pic of a parts cannon here:




If you want to actually figure out and solve the problem, it will take a lot more diligence on your part.

There are a ton of possible reasons why an engine might not start, but in most cases there is only one correct answer.

HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

I have a whole second engine that is disassembled, so I have spares of most things. My dad is a diesel mechanic. So knows about engines, just not as much a about Hondas. So I have tried swaps with parts I already have.

 
Rep Power: 518

So....swap the coolant temp sensor *for the computer* out of the old head, see what happens.



If you had a scanner with datalist capabilities, this would be simpler to evaluate.

 
Rep Power: 0

I will try that. Thank you.

 
Rep Power: 518

It's a 2 wire sensor under the distributor. I think the connector is sorta round.


The single wire sensor is for the temp gauge on the dash.

 
Rep Power: 0

This engine started out w/a blown head gasket. We had a problem with the head, when I torqued the cam caps the cam would lock up. Bought another engine cheaper than I could buy just the head for. Put the new head on, new water pump, timing belt and tensioner. I rechecked the timing it is in time. I left the temp sensor that came W/ the new head in it. After getting it together we started having this problem, I put the original temp sensor from the old head in it, didn't help it. replaced the cap and rotor, it had carbon tracks and appeared to be cracked, didn't help. We had no problem before the head gasket problem. Is it possible the camshaft may be the wrong one. They are both D16Y8s. I'm not a Honda mech. but I do work for Detroit Diesel have been there for the last 25 years, so I do know a little bit about an internal combustion eng. If any of you guys can help I would appreciate it. If you haven't figured it out by now, I'm this girls father, The parts pitcher. I'd also like to add that I removed the intake manifold and there was gas? in it, also wondering about possible bad injectors.

 
Rep Power: 518

You're the dad then?


Is it starved or flooding when it won't start?

Will it start easier with a whiff of carb spray? (I'd hate to hear that you blew the starter off by using ether)


Got codes?
Got a scanner that can give a datalist?

Another poster here didn't mention anything about his CEL, it could have sped things up a lot if he had.

 
Rep Power: 0

when it finally started after the head replacement, it had an intake air temp code, we erased the code it never came back but the fuel mileage was terrible, that's why we changed the sensor, it didn't help. I think it's flooding when we try to start it, after a couple seconds of cranking you can smell gas pretty strong. It seems like it wants to start but never does. It was this afternoon that I pulled the intake man. My son in law was trying to clean the idle air whatever it is and broke one of the screws. That's when I found all the gas in the manifold. I'm also wondering about the injectors maybe not atomizing the gas, just dribbling the gas into the manifold. I tried ether, no start.

 
Rep Power: 0

I don't have the scanner that will read the data, I do but don't have the software for a Honda. I'm working on borrowing one from a coworker.

 
Rep Power: 518

Ether no help, smells fuel, sounds like flooding to me. Plugs wet at that time?

Got that scanner? What does it say the coolant temp is? If the coolant temp is inaccurate reading far too low, that could certainly make it flood.
(ECT and IAT should be within just a couple degrees of each other when stone cold)

So could pissing injectors. They need to spray and atomize the fuel, not dribble and **** it.

Leaking injectors, you could probably see that on a fuel pressure gauge after shutoff...or pull the rail and injectors up and watch if they dribble (not sure if there is enough space and hose to do this).

BUT finding gas in the manifold could have simply been from disassembly if an injector popped out of the rail. Keep that in mind.

I see you said you rechecked the timing, but which did you check? Cam timing or ignition timing?

Valve adjustment?

 
Rep Power: 0

I didn't pull injectors from man. I pulled it in one piece. I checked the static timing, made sure the cam, crank and distributor all line up. I didn't get the scanner, I guess I'll know more when I do get it. Yes the plugs were wet, I had another new set that I put in before I pulled the man. didn't help. I have another set of Injectors that came with the other eng., I was going to swap the whole manifold but the connector on the IAV-, whatever it is, was different. So I drilled out the broken screw, chased the threads and put a new screw in it, cleaned it out too. Put the manifold back on, but didn't finish assembly. my feet were getting pretty cold.

 
Rep Power: 518

Idle Air Control Valve?
2 wire vs 3 wire? Might be for different transmission, one version for AT other version for MT.

Static?
What about a timing light for the ignition? (and jump the SCS connector to put it in base timing mode for setting)

You mentioned a head swap, I have read other instances where a slightly different camshaft caused an issue with setting ignition timing. I have no way of telling you what cam differences are though.


Wrong timing can make them a real bitch to start, and retarded timing could sure make the plugs wet.
If the dist slots are long enough you can even cover up a tooth off on the timing belt, but still be low on compression and power, hard to start.

Just a thought.


How does the engine run, other than the cold start issue?

I guess wait for more data with a scanner datalist.

 
Rep Power: 0

I never could get a timing light on it. my light was broken. But it was starting, it was warm out, then it started getting cold and the trouble started. I'm thinking I may try the old cam in the new head, on the old head it would lock up when I torqued the caps/ rocker shafts. I know on our diesel engs. they use a lot of different cams, I assumed they both being the D16Y8 the cam would be the same, but I guess possibly one being an AT and the other being the MT they may have different cams. I understand the ECUs won't swap, So I guess I'll try the old cam also. That's about the only thing that really changed. They're both VTECs. Will the VTEC controller have anything to do with it? That was changed also, came on new head.

 
Rep Power: 518

I wouldn't swap cams without a better reason, that's a lot of work that's likely to be totally unnecessary.

Just get the timing set properly and see what happens with that part of it.

USA Parts catalog has only one cam for 96 EX (AT and MT use the same) (only checked 96 and 2000 years), and a couple other cams for DX LX HX and GX





VTEC shouldn't have anything to do with it. That just changes valvetrain modes at higher RPM.


What about ground wires? On the thermostat housing, that's an awfully important item there, almost all computer grounds are attached to that. No broken wires?
EDIT: Clean connections, no corrosion?

Still waiting for a scanner. Knowing what the computer sees should be helpful.

 
Rep Power: 0

That's good to know about the cam, but I was looking at how the vtec works, I'll have to look at the rockers, If the rockers are stuck engaged to the vtec rockers couldn't
that cause a problem. The only things that changed was the head, I put the old coolant temp sensor back in it. The cam and valve train and vtec solenoid. I put the old intake/injectors on the new head. Used the old distributor. before that the engine started and ran just fine. The eng was overheated and blew the head gasket. My experience tells me it has to be one of those new pieces, but you've eliminated the cam for me. I still have the gas in the intake to consider.

 
Rep Power: 518

Maybe....or maybe not. I can't see it.
If it were me and I really needed to know if it works, I'd run the engine at 3k and operate the VTEC solenoid manually with a jumper wire, listen for the engine to change sounds. That would at least confirm hi/lo operational change, but wouldn't rule out an individual item stuck.

However, even if it were stuck in either mode, that shouldn't make it hard to start or flood.


Study more about what VTEC does.
Note too, there are several different versions/variations of VTEC that have been used throughout the Honda brand.
(I would have to research which engine has what type, I never bothered to remember all the variations.)

HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

UPDATE....drilled and tapped broken IACV bolt. Put manifold back on, changed injectors, engine started...YAY! Still have idle problems. Does anybody know if the TPS should be reading any % at Idle.. I'm used to working on computer controlled diesel engines where the computer controls the idle, shows 0% at idle. Also read somewhere about the ECM learning the TPS by disconnecting the ground cable with the engine running, I think ???? I know on a Mercedes engine they have to learn the limits on the TPS but it's done through the diag/ programming software.

 
Rep Power: 518

I changed all my scanners to read TPS as voltage, not %. I cannot tell you what or if it should read any % at all.


Bust out a voltmeter and backprobe it?
TPS should be 0.49V at closed throttle.
There is seriously almost zero variation from this throughout the entire car line. 99% of the cars will read 0.49V at closed throttle.


The TPS is adjusted by the factory and is never touched again. The screws holding it in are breakaway/tamper resistant. There are no heads on them.


There is no learning for the TPS.
Holy crap, do not ever do this to a modern car.
The battery acts as a huge capacitor.
You can fry all sorts of electronic stuff on modern cars by disconnecting it with the engine running.

What's it doing?

 
Rep Power: 0

When I took the manifold off I took the cable off at the 2 nuts that adjust it. When I put it back on the idle is high then it drops and tries to die. I understand the IACV tries to maintain idle. I'm seeing about 9% or so at idle. Now you say throttle closed you mean off or on? The TPS works at 0 to 4.9 V ?

 
Rep Power: 518

Make sure there is slack in the cable at rest. It should not be holding the throttle open.

Uhhh....Could be anything. Clean out the throttle body? Clean the bypass passages and screw?


How does this thing run other than the idle problem? Great? Crappy? What?

Base idle set? (Gotta have everything else set and running correctly first)
Done an idle relearn procedure?



You see 9% for what? IAC or TPS?

Throttle closed means just what it says: Throttle blade closed. Completely closed. Shut. At rest. Foot off of the gas pedal. Slack in the cable. Spring loaded to snap shut.

I know most Diesels don't use a throttle body, but I know at least one that does.

No.
Normal range is exactly 0.49v at closed throttle position, to approximately 4.50ish volts at wide open throttle.

HTH

 
Rep Power: 0

Runs great otherwise. The idle is high because the cable is pulling it on. What is the base idle set or idle relearn, maybe that's what I read about, maybe that's what I need to do. I'm thinking because the idle is so high the IACV is trying to compensate and its killing the engine. The 9% is on the TPS, I can loosen the cable and the % and idle goes down. I know now that I screwed it up when I took the cable the way I did.

 
Rep Power: 518

Adjust that out of it. The throttle must completely shut on its own.

See what happens after that.

 
Rep Power: 518

Base idle speed set,

Read this bulletin (PDF)
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&v ed=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.driveaccord.net% 2Fforums%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D2102%26 d%3D1117041514&ei=zP_VUoHsPOi52wWq4IDgDw&usg=AFQjC NE1hnwrPyBKDIjNhGpKTIQG7VAnjQ&sig2=ebASabWQgmm7jho j_NnU4A&bvm=bv.59378465,d.b2I

----------------------------

Idle relearn is simply letting the computer learn a stable idle speed and IAC operation to maintain that speed when warm. But the base idle setting needs done first.

Read that bulletin above.


Disconnect the battery for 10 minutes, reconnect.
Start engine, get warmed up.
Let it idle for 10 minutes in park/neutral with no electrical loads.

 
Rep Power: 518

Hey, someone else here reportedly found their vacuum hose to the PCV valve was full of goo and cleaned it all out.

 
Rep Power: 0

I'll give that a try, and go from there... Thanks for all the help. Rick