Getting back at that NA build, BUILD ON HOLD - Honda Civic Forum


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Old 11-12-2008   #1  
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Getting back at that NA build, BUILD ON HOLD

Here is a PM I sent to boonecivic, I decided to make this into a thread because we started getting it popping and thoguht I'd share it with everyone:

My message:
I saw your mod list. Its fairly close to what I was thinking of doing. Why did you decide to pnp the head, and what gains did you see. Also running catless with the race header, is it ridiculously loud?

Boonecivic's Reply:
Well, i blew a few motors in the past and was on e bay looking for motors ( which was a bad bad idea) and came across a motor that had pnp head. So i went ahead and got it. I want to say that i got 20-30 hp around the powerband. But it has to be tuned good. And i really really advise that you invest in the kpro before you get the cams. The vafc does nothing to tune it. I can barley keep it idling. And being catless, it is very loud. And also due to the fact that i have the skunk 2 exhaust. It seems to make it that much louder. But it has a nice deep sound to it. I see your name all over the forums talking about N/A motors lol but if you have any other questions, i might be able to help.

My reply:
Haha, ALL around the forum? Yeah I guess.. I'm around the house like sidewalks. Ha.

I was into going NA hardcore for a long time there but ran outta money and hadnt jumped back on it. I'm graduating college at the end of the term in mid december and I dont have a job lined up. I'm majoring in accounting and am looking to become a CPA so I'll be making bank, just now cash is a little strapped working seasonaly and holding down car insuance and ****.

Anyways, I got an lx, but was/am going to do the head swap to ex... but I thoguht, hell, why not build it first. Well I got a crower stage 2 cam, valve springs and retainers, as well as new valve guides. I need to pick up some new valves as well- kuz I didnt remember where I pulled them from, and I guess that causes problems later down the line if you dont put them back out of where you pulled them from because of how they wear the valve guides. I'll Probably go with larger valves, or at at least that was the thinking. I also have a vafc to help with the headswap, but wasnt really planning on tuning with it. Of course Kpro is the way to go- I've been staring at it ever since it came out and blew AEM's EMS out the water.

But other then that I was looking at getting the revs up faster- so a lightened flywheel (dont need a clutch yet, but prob should replace it while have the tranny cracked open.. not sure which one to get, if any tho- I've read the break down on all of them and what they are good for just havent given it any serious thought as to yet), and a the race header which gives the most gains out of any headers on the market for our car, which is also another good choice. So whats left...

high compression pistons (slightly larger??), valves, crower maxi-lite rods, pnp/angle job, lightening the crank- shaving the balncers down to points and micropolishing, and then lighter wheels.

Thats my ideas for an NA build. Your pretty well on your way. I'd like to see you tune with Kpro (did you pick it up yet and just not update your profile?), and then get the maxilight rods by crower and high compression pistons and then see how much your throwing down. My orig goal was 160 bhp, hopefully with torque somewhere near there (the lightened flywheel, lightened crank, and lighter wheels should all help that significantly).

Everyones going turbo n ****, so threre isnt a lot of research done on NA builds- so naturally when I see someone with an NA build my eyes light up.

Last edited by TRIZ; 11-18-2008 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 11-14-2008   #2  
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Re: Suggest A tune Shop

Wow, sounds like you have it pretty much figured out bro. When you get all your motor work done, i am positive you will hit that 160 make. And i think you will pass it. I do not have the kpro yet. The damn thing cost way to much. like you i ran out of money with going to school. I'm going to school to be a radiology Technologist then ultrasound tech. Am very far from being done in december unlike you. I envy that your almost done lol but with school and other bills, i have been on a hold with my car.

So ya, i dont think i have anything else to add to your list of N/a. You are basicly doing everything i want to do. And as soon as i get the kpro, i will most defiantly show you my tune. Man i should start saving for that now. You made me want to get that going lol

So have you put the cams in yet? or are you waiting till you have everything and just put it all in at once?

Last edited by TRIZ; 11-18-2008 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 11-18-2008   #3  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

I encourage you, you should get it going again man!!

I havent put the cam in yet. I started before I came to school by taking the head apart. I never finished putting it back together because I found out I needed to put the valves back in the same place they came from- which is why I picked up the new valve guides. I had to come back to college and my dad boxed all my **** back up and stacked it on the side of the garage- so I need to hop on that. I figured I'd get the head work done before I put the cam and valves back in. Just wasnt sure what exactly to get done to the head- I hop on http://d-series.org/ and start some hardcore research.
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Old 11-18-2008   #4  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Uhoh, you're contaminating d-series now too?

In ref to the wear on the guides, I wouldn't worry about that at all. Just re-seat the valves with a hand lapper and compound and toss them back in. Job done.
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Old 11-18-2008   #5  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

about damn time you got back on it. lol. i was thinking id be done with my n/a build before you were. lmao
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Old 11-18-2008   #6  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

I'm glad your picking this up. Has anybody actually changed d17 pistons out to up the compression ration before? I don't recall it being done so I'm eagerly waiting the results.
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Old 11-18-2008   #7  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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Originally Posted by speedfoos View Post
Uhoh, you're contaminating d-series now too?

In ref to the wear on the guides, I wouldn't worry about that at all. Just re-seat the valves with a hand lapper and compound and toss them back in. Job done.
Haha, its all good man. BTW, I've been following your build thread lately- its coming along really nicely and I'm impressed with all the work you've been doing on your own- especially yaking that rad support all on your own. You aughta complain at the UPS guy, that was BS. About the guides- shoot, I already got the guides, and will most likely be changing up the valves to some oversized ones- still need to research about air velocity and the science behind what will yield the most power in the cylinder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordhelmet View Post
I'm glad your picking this up. Has anybody actually changed d17 pistons out to up the compression ration before? I don't recall it being done so I'm eagerly waiting the results.
I've see ppl change pistons to lower the compression, but I still have yet to come across a build where someone changes the pistons and rods (to most likely crower maxi light rods). If anyone knows anyone who has done this, please post about it here!

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about damn time you got back on it. lol. i was thinking id be done with my n/a build before you were. lmao
Whats the stats with yours... did you give up?
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Old 11-18-2008   #8  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Kind of off topic but did you ever change your suede headliner?
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Old 11-18-2008   #9  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

i dont know if you've considered it or not, but there was an ancient thread floating around here somewhere about doing an individual throttle body setup on a d17 and N/A build stuff. it would be sick if you could pioneer the way for that. does anyone even make high comp. pistons yet? i thought those were still non-existent. oh and why not go ahead and step up to the stage 3 cam.
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Old 11-18-2008   #10  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

The stage 3 cam is for the real aggresive racers. It's not very street friendly, unless thats what you are going for Triz. If your wanting 160bhp like you said earlier, i wouldnt worry about the stage 3, i think the stage 2 will be plenty will a good tune .
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Old 11-18-2008   #11  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Quote:
Originally Posted by boonecivic View Post
The stage 3 cam is for the real aggresive racers. It's not very street friendly, unless thats what you are going for Triz. If your wanting 160bhp like you said earlier, i wouldnt worry about the stage 3, i think the stage 2 will be plenty will a good tune .
Uhhh NO the I have the stage 3 cam in my car I used to have the stage 2 the stage 2 was way more aggressive and rough. My stage 3 the car idles like butter and runs like stock. Everyone thinks that the stage 3 since it is a higher stage means it is going to be very un-streetable and hard to handle but it actually runs a lot smoother and has a bigger powerband than the stage 2, Jeff(jeff evans tuning), Andy and I all believe it is due to the lobe separation.
Also the stage 2 makes power to 8000 rpm but as soon as you hit 8100 it hits the wall and completely drops off feels like the motor is just free wheeling. the stage 3 keeps pulling though at 8100 rpm.



On the subject of High compression pistons I have manage to dig up a little more research. wiseco will make piston for our motor any compression from something like 8.1 to 14.1 so if you wanted to go all out you could go 14.1 but you would have to run race fuel. No one has really wanted to leak out the wait of the maxi light rods to me but from everything I have found they seem to be 25 grams heavier than the stock rods. Talked to jeff evans about high compression he seems to think that it is possible to run 12.5 compression which would be the gx piston on 93 octane but you are going to have to dump more fuel and you can't get too crazy with the ignition timing unless your running race gas. Also the GX rods are not the same as the stock rods they have a different part # I think there shot peened but there is no proof what so ever to back that one up.
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Old 11-19-2008   #12  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

^^ True @ pistons. **** @ rods. I think I might have heard that before as well, I'll have to research what the deal is. There is a guy over on d-series.org, bigtuna, that has a CRX D16 that is running custom bisimoto pistons with a compression of 14.7:1!! But he is using E85 Ethanol for fuel, which isnt pump gas With more time on that site I'm sure i'll find a good combo of rods and pistons to throw some power out with.

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Kind of off topic but did you ever change your suede headliner?
I had the red suede up there for a while, but with the heat it started sagging so I ripped it off one hot summer day- basically shaved the headliner and put it back up till I can come back at it. I was going to do it carbon fiber actually, but I'm a little worried about how its going to reflect sound. Havent given it much thought beyond that though. I actually have this guy over at an upholstry shop who has 30 yrs experience doing automotive interiors offering to spray the glue for my headliner for me. Basically I just need to bring my headliner in now that its all cleaned up and the material and it'll be done. I might take him up on it. I dunno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baron340 View Post
i dont know if you've considered it or not, but there was an ancient thread floating around here somewhere about doing an individual throttle body setup on a d17 and N/A build stuff. it would be sick if you could pioneer the way for that. does anyone even make high comp. pistons yet? i thought those were still non-existent. oh and why not go ahead and step up to the stage 3 cam.
Yeah they are out there. Its not really made and marketed for D17's but if the dimentions are correct they will work. As for ITB's... I was looking into it before, that would def be sick. There is a lot of science behind tuning them properly and building them with the correct runner length and horn size. I question if running itb's on a streetable car is even a good idea, even if filters were slapped on the end of each of them.
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Old 11-19-2008   #13  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Good luck on the build, Triz!
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Old 11-19-2008   #14  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Might be cheaper to just get the stock rods shot peened then. Same light weight, stronger because of the shot peening process. That leaves wrist pin size on whatever pistons you run to account for, but it's an option.

Get on Google Triz. There are probably a bunch of gas stations near you that sell E85, plus it's cheaper than 93 octane.
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Old 11-19-2008   #15  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

I didn't know that NA builds produce so much power. What kinda cost are you looking at to get everything you want TRIZ? This sounds much better than going turbo to me.
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Old 11-19-2008   #16  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Better is a relative statement. It costs a ton more to build a powerful NA 4-cylinder motor than it does a powerful F/I motor.
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Old 11-19-2008   #17  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

i say swap a K in there and you'll start off with more power than what you'll get out of an NA build.
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Old 11-19-2008   #18  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRIZ View Post



Whats the stats with yours... did you give up?
no mine is still on. just have to wait till tax time to get my bike before i can get it all in there. also i have to do a tranny swap before i get my kpro.
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Old 11-19-2008   #19  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

my car is faster than a stock K-series.

and here is the problem with the k series you buy one you stick it in you blow it up it's going to cost at least $3000 if not $5000 to get another motor

I blow up my d17 I pick another one up for $150

hmmmm $5000 vs. $150 lol

but clint is right the way to go is turbo if money is the problem. I might do it someday but I have to finish My NA build

and like clint said getting the stock rods shot peened is a pretty sweet idea. I think its some were between 15-25 dollars a rod at my local machine shop. but the stock rods are pretty strong I managed to destroy the whole bottom end of my engine did not bend warp or flex a single rod.
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Old 11-19-2008   #20  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

I checked out the E85 stations around my area- there really arent any. The closest one is about 40 mins on the highway away if I have no traffic, which is super unlikely. So I'm outta luck if I wanted to run strictly E85 unless some stations pop up on my side of town. I need to check more out on rods and pistons, the shot peening is a good idea. If the maxilight rods are infact lighter than stock, then shot peening them sounds like a winning combo for rods. Need to research more tonight- full day of classes.
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Old 11-19-2008   #21  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

wow this is some crazy stuff. im thinkin all those people who doubted the d17 as being a strong engine were wrong. Ive been really considering doing something for more power and na may be it. Although kswaps are getting cheaper. I can pick one up for around 3 here thats complete and they're only gettin cheaper. BUT thats still a lot compared to being able to buy a d17 with 50xxxkms (about 30xxxmiles) for like $400 with a tranny
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Old 11-19-2008   #22  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

i hope you guys finish this and slap everyone in the face for saying its worthless to build a d17 ive wanted to tackle this type of build for a while but everyone says go boost or kswap. as much as k swaps have gone down in price lets say you do find a k swap for 3gs or even 2500. add another g for mounts thats 3500 then another 1000 for k-pro thats back to 4500 buks. thats if you get the axles with the swap. plus custom exhaust. so you end up paying 5gs lets say into a swap. you can dump that money into a na build and probly have some left over. we wouldnt need custom mounts that cost 1g. so thats saves money right there. we would need kpro so theres no getting around that. thats 4gs left to buy all other stuff for an na build and i dont think your gonna use all that much but i could be wrong. i mean dont get me wrong i want a k someday but its way to expensive. the only expensive things i see in building a d127 would be is the kpro and custom pistons. other than that idk maybe the crower cam to but not so much. some one will correct me im sure and put me on blast for my comment but oh well its all good just stating my feelings. but i cant wait to see numbers on this na build keep up the good work
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Old 11-19-2008   #23  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

im still hoping to see a 200whp N/a d17. if there isnt one out there already, im sure there will be.
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Old 11-19-2008   #24  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

^That would be impressive, and it would take quite a bit of work to get close to 200 whp... My B18C1 only made 192whp with 11.6:1 Comp, Crower Stg 3 cams, big header/2.5 Exh. w/ no cat / 3"Intake, 310's, Blox IM, and no p/s. And keep in mind that's revving to 8800. Getting a D17 up to even that point would probably take a VERY high compression that probably wouldn't run on pump gas...

That said, I admire the fact that you guys are tying to set the bar...K-Swaps are awesome, so are turbos, but pulling every last horsepower out of a SOHC takes some real knowledge and planning along with a hefty budget. Good luck with it, I can't wait to see the numbers!
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Old 11-19-2008   #25  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

as of about 2 hours ago i am know scheduled for new dyno tune december 2 so I will hopefully see how much I am now making N/A
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Old 11-19-2008   #26  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Thanks for the support guys.

I'm on a quick break before my next class, I just hit up crower- tryna get the maxi light rod weight.

As for 200hp... that'd be sick, but I'm a realist. 160 seems attainable. I'd be really happy with anything over that. I'm trying to pull out all the stops, and get every part thats going to help the goal, and obviously a lot of what I'm trying to do isnt really the norm for a d17 so there is a lack of info to base stuff off of, which makes it a little more difficult, but much funner then just checking off parts from the common-knowledge ideal shopping list. If not 160hp or more, at least the little bastard will get up to speed a lot faster and maybe even come close to making a record 0-60 time, yet that is wishful thinking. Time for class
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Old 11-19-2008   #27  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

i would love to see one hit 200whp. i would **** myself. lmao
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Old 11-19-2008   #28  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

im subscribing to this one cuz im really extremely interested in seeing the outcome. im not gonna lie the 160 isnt a major hp but to me thats freakin awesome. if i can build my little d17 to beat a b16 or a k20a3 si then id be fine..... i want my car to be just a lil faster or just as quick as some of these guys around my hood. but oh well soon we shall see
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Old 11-19-2008   #29  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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Originally Posted by TRIZ View Post
I checked out the E85 stations around my area- there really arent any. The closest one is about 40 mins on the highway away if I have no traffic, which is super unlikely. So I'm outta luck if I wanted to run strictly E85 unless some stations pop up on my side of town. I need to check more out on rods and pistons, the shot peening is a good idea. If the maxilight rods are infact lighter than stock, then shot peening them sounds like a winning combo for rods. Need to research more tonight- full day of classes.
Are you out in Beaverton? There's one that I pass everyday on McLoughlin to get to work...
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Old 11-20-2008   #30  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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Originally Posted by bomerman19 View Post
my car is faster than a stock K-series.

and here is the problem with the k series you buy one you stick it in you blow it up it's going to cost at least $3000 if not $5000 to get another motor

I blow up my d17 I pick another one up for $150

hmmmm $5000 vs. $150 lol

but clint is right the way to go is turbo if money is the problem. I might do it someday but I have to finish My NA build

and like clint said getting the stock rods shot peened is a pretty sweet idea. I think its some were between 15-25 dollars a rod at my local machine shop. but the stock rods are pretty strong I managed to destroy the whole bottom end of my engine did not bend warp or flex a single rod.
first off, a K motor does not cost 5 grand. They are a lot cheaper now. Second of all, it's the driver's fault for blowing it up in the first place, and who says you had to blow it up??? drive it correctly and it'll be fine. Besides, if you do blow up your motor, you can pick up another motor without the tranny for 2500 or less. I've seen some k20a2 w/o a tranny go for less than 2000 at times.

you blow up your motor, depending on how much damage there is, you can get just another block and swap it in for less. You blow up your D17, swap another D17 back in and you're right back at 100whp if you're lucky.

I'm just saying this, you said you're faster than a stock k series, how much money did you have to spend to beat a stock k series? your potential of the all motor project is limited in the D17.

How much power are you putting down to beat a k series? i'm just curious..
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