Getting back at that NA build, BUILD ON HOLD - Page 4 - Honda Civic Forum


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Old 12-03-2008   #91  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Would doing a NA build have any effect on the reliability of the engine over the long term?
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Old 12-03-2008   #92  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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Would doing a NA build have any effect on the reliability of the engine over the long term?
Its anyones guess. But if you do it correctly and safely and dont be stupid about it like deciding to see what happens with say 15:1 compression, then it will last just as long as any other stock motor. If you cut corners and decide not to replace things that should be replaced when having the motor apart, if your dealing with internals that is, then you can screw up your ride. This all depends on how far you want to go with the build of course. The easiest NA build I can think of would be dropping in a stage 1 cam from crower and calling it good. Will it affect the life of your engine? Not really... there is the posability that you can mess **** up on the install and ruin your motor, but take your time and be sure you know what your doing, and if you dont- take it to someone who does, and you should be good and have your motor run just as long, if not longer, than any stock motor.

....basically this is a long winded reply that breaks down into this: Do it right and your motor will be fine, try and do an NA build when you dont know what your doing or doing it half assed and you'll screw it up.

This is the same for anything on a car. Its just like a brake job- its not very difficult to chang pads, but you do run the risk of crashing if you do it wrong- ex accidently cutting the brake hose line.
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Old 12-16-2008   #93  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

well just to throw another pickle in your ongoing dilemma.... are you going to use the A1 tranny and its longer gear ratios?
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Old 12-16-2008   #94  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Long gear ratios would be bad for NA because engine should stay in the power band. I don't think the stock gear ratios between an A1 and A2 would make too much of a difference though. I think Trix is running an A1 trans.
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Old 12-16-2008   #95  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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Long gear ratios would be bad for NA because engine should stay in the power band. I don't think the stock gear ratios between an A1 and A2 would make too much of a difference though. I think Trix is running an A1 trans.
I have an A1 transmission. The taller gears don't make that much of a difference. It's more of a gear spacing issue between first and second gear. It just bogs into second if you don't have enough revvs. Not an issue in day to day driving of course. Increased rev limit helps quite alot though. Overall however, ratios are a relatively short in both cases and if you're making enough power and have a big enough rev band, I think the final drive from the A1 will be more advantageous.

D17A2 5M Gear Ratio

First 3.143
Second 1.870
Third 1.241
Fourth 0.970
Fifth 0.757
Reverse 3.231
Final Drive Axle Ratio 4.412

D17A1 5M Gear Ratio

First 3.462
Second 1.870
Third 1.241
Fourth 0.970
Fifth 0.711
Reverse 3.231
Final Drive Axle Ratio 4.111
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Old 12-17-2008   #96  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

The different trans gear ratio do make a difference I had to run andy old trans which was from a dx and the gears were just to long for the power I now finally have my old ex gear set back in the trans and my acceleration is a lot better in I have also ran the HX gear set which is also too long. the only one that I have not run is the LX.
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Old 12-19-2008   #97  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

DX and LX gear ratios are the same, arent they??

I'm dumb with trannys... can someone break down what the gear ratios really mean... 4.3333.... hows that any different from 1.333? I have NO idea.
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Old 01-07-2009   #98  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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wow this thread has gotten rolling nice

K series are fine but like I said before they don't just cost $150 like a d17 and motors do just blow up thats why at any time of day there is always some one broken down on I-495 capital beltway I have seen motors blown from being driven hard I have seen the blow from bad wrenching, seen them go from just an accidental mistake, and I have seen them go for no reason at all. it happens. But you see if mine goes i am left with the self satisfaction that "I don't care! I get another one tomorrow for $150" not **** that was my k-series i have to start searching so maybe I can find one for under 3 grand in a week.

Also Alot of people don't know this including many k owners but there is one fatal flaw in the desing of the K-series.

The timing chain tensioner. it is operated by oil pressure wich is nice unless you stick it on the track and you get into a hard turn and the revs are already spinning high. the oil sloshes away from the pick up(and it that baffle can only do so much) loose pressure tensioner eases off the chain hopps there goes your motor. so 6000 rpm good suspension hard turn and bam! I have only found one company that has actually addressed this issue and that is TODA. not too hard to blow a K.

I'm not bashing on k's just the ease and cheapness of the d17 has it's advantages. also I have seen a k in a 7thgen before now I know I have never tried to pull one before but to me from the looks of it unless you had a lift and could drop it from the bottom it looks like it could take some time to pull. Mine takes 90 mins to get out from the time the hood pops and the jack slides under untill the the engine is on the ground next to the car.

and it didn't take much to beat a k
150 for crower stage 2 cam
150 for crower valve springs and retainers
900 for k-pro

beat an ep3 and run nose to nose with a type s. tempest racing claimed 144 with matching torque to the wheels that was after I blew out my exhaust gaskets on the way to the tuner and they did a shitty job. I have alot more done to the car now should be above 160 hoping for 170. I think the torque is going to be high but not the hp cause I'll be honest I hit a wall at like 100 miles an hour but I will accelerate like a bat out of hell all the way up to there.

There are k's out there that will beat me and I have driven k series cars and swaped k-series cars but still IMO I have not found a K-series car that is any where near as fun to drive as my car. My car is so much ****ing fun drive, that I get sad if I don't drive it everyday. It's awesome!!!
id like to find some cams and springs for that price ne idea where i can??
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Old 01-08-2009   #99  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Used. Although Paul's estimates are a little low. I picked up a new Crower cam for $250 and had sold my extra set of springs and retainers for $200.
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Old 01-08-2009   #100  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

It took a lot of time and searching but that is what I paid for everything you just have to keep your eye out. And when a deal like that comes around especially for the k-pro you have to grab it. It might mean your eating rammen noodles for the next couple of months but its worth it.

If you are looking for new parts at least for the cam the cheapest I have been able to find is directly from crower.
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Old 01-08-2009   #101  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

I'm brownbagging it for the next few weeks after buying Andy's kpro!
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Old 01-08-2009   #102  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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I'm brownbagging it for the next few weeks after buying Andy's kpro!
LOL! So worth it though!

Oh any update on said firewall?
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Old 01-09-2009   #103  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

oh isee well thats a real tuner right there. i guess ima do both builds. i have a d17a1 and a d17a2 block and bottom end. i think ima build the a1 all motor and add the vtec head and cam and springs to see how far i can get. and since i got a friend whos gonna build a d16y8 for boost ill be building my a2 for boost aswell. but very slowly
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Old 01-09-2009   #104  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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Oh any update on said firewall?
I emailed Levi again. We'll see what he comes back with.
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Old 01-09-2009   #105  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

i already have and i/h/e and clutch and lightend flywheel and i was thinking about the crower stage 2 but unfortunatley i cant afford everything that you have to buy with it ie. valve springs and retainers, kpro. so say i get the crower stage 1 i know you dont need to upgrade the valves springs but would you still need something to tune it with and if so whats the best other than kpro for the stage 1?
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Old 01-09-2009   #106  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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Originally Posted by speedfoos View Post
I emailed Levi again. We'll see what he comes back with.
cool!

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i already have and i/h/e and clutch and lightend flywheel and i was thinking about the crower stage 2 but unfortunatley i cant afford everything that you have to buy with it ie. valve springs and retainers, kpro. so say i get the crower stage 1 i know you dont need to upgrade the valves springs but would you still need something to tune it with and if so whats the best other than kpro for the stage 1?
No the stage one is designed to be a straight drop in hot street cam you don't need to tune it at all the stock ecu already throws so much fuel at the engine that it doesn't matter. All the cam is doing is opening up the valves a bit more for more air, the car will probably balance out real nicely and be a nice upgrade maybe even run smoother i wouldn't even bother with a piggy back.
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Old 01-09-2009   #107  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

i got a quick question is it easy to get into the 14s with out going "K" i have a cuzin who talks alot of crap cuz he has a 92 civic hatch with a k20a2 and i wanna just show him you dont need a k to be fast. my brother and i are building are cars to beat him or be just as fast with out a k. my bro has a 96 hatch and hes building a h23/h22 motor and im not sure what i need to do. i wanted to go k but like others have said b4 its not that easy just to slap a k on there. my cuzin dont know how to drive that well. his fastest time was a 13.5 and it was on slicks he should be a lil faster right????!
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Old 01-10-2009   #108  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

depends on what your cousin has on his k seriies. what is done to it exactly?

he should be a lot faster than that though.

14 sec. quarter miles are pretty slow

your N/A D series will not keep up with him.
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Old 01-10-2009   #109  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

i never said n/a d series would keep up. maybe to you a 14 sec car is slow but thats respectable to me. i think 16s are slow. but not everyone has there nice little expensive car that mom and dad bought them.... there very few ppl out there who actually have worked there ***'s off for what they have and i tip my hat off to them but some of us cant just dump 8gs like it was nothing.....
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Old 01-10-2009   #110  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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Originally Posted by bomerman19 View Post

Also Alot of people don't know this including many k owners but there is one fatal flaw in the desing of the K-series.

The timing chain tensioner. it is operated by oil pressure wich is nice unless you stick it on the track and you get into a hard turn and the revs are already spinning high. the oil sloshes away from the pick up(and it that baffle can only do so much) loose pressure tensioner eases off the chain hopps there goes your motor. so 6000 rpm good suspension hard turn and bam! I have only found one company that has actually addressed this issue and that is TODA. not too hard to blow a K.
You are wrong, the issue is with the pickup itself, nothing to do with the timing chain tensioner. Honda fixed the issue for all 04+ K-series, pre 04 guys ususally just swap in the oil pump. The issue was not that big of a deal, and not to evident until it was swapped into cars that could pull more Gs like the Lotus Elise (yes Elise owners find the K20a2 far superior to their engines. Maybe you should fill them in on how much better a built D17 is, they may swap to that). Baffled oil pans are recomended in serious race applications, this goes for most engines, infact for serious race builds a dry sump setup is really the way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bomerman19 View Post
There are k's out there that will beat me and I have driven k series cars and swaped k-series cars but still IMO I have not found a K-series car that is any where near as fun to drive as my car. My car is so much ****ing fun drive, that I get sad if I don't drive it everyday. It's awesome!!!
Most, if not all K series cars out there would SPANK you (you may beat a K20a3 swapped car)! I was making over 200whp (on a mustang dyno=~225whp on a dynojet) with just bolt-ons, Kpro, and a tune with my K20a2 EM2. The most I can see an NA D17 that will run on pump gas and stay together for more than a few thousand miles would be 140-150whp, do the math.

And fun?? How can you even think that the same car with atleast 50 less whp, would be more fun. And did I mention that the K, reved up to 8,300rpms? Want to talk about fun, now blasting around with 200whp @ 8,300 rpms with a close ratio 6spd gear box, now that is fun.

I think the idea of an NA build D17 is a neat idea, if it does not cost more than $1-2K it is an easy way to spice your D17 up. But it in no way would compare to a Kswap. Plus if you really like the idea of an NA build and get tired of the 200whp that the K puts out, you could throw in some IPS cams, maybe even a 2.4 bottom end, tweak the Kpro tune and be rocking out a very reliable 260whp/220+trq, all NA. What do you do when the 140-150whp out of the D17 gets old (trust me it will)?

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Old 01-10-2009   #111  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

No the issues is the fact that honda should have just put a regular timing chain tensioner on like on most cars not an oil driven/dependent tensioner on it. It's not hard a metal block with a pin and a spring and you have a tensioner. It is not the pick up honda has used the same damm pick up on all there motors since at least 92 probably even earlier. There are also some more issues with the k-series motor even the new one for starters the oil pump is not directly driven by the crank shaft it has a stepper gear in there so it spins faster than the actual crank wich is great for a daily driven car but when you raise the rev limit on the car it starts run the oil pump too fast and you run into some serious cavitation. also the oiling in the top of the head is weak at best. They made the oil holes too small which is fine for stock cams but as soon as you switch out to better valve springs and a bigger cam you get aggressive amounts of wear on the valve train and rocker arms. the simple answer would be to bore this out but if you do that since the vtec is tied right in there via the oil channels it ****s with the oil pressure to the vtec switch which then ****s with your vtec engagement. so your screwed unless you do that dyntech kit(i think thats who makes it) also no baffle in the oil pan! at least the d17 has a baffle. And dry sump well those are wonderful but pricey pain in the *** to set up and if you try to enter honda challenge with a dry sump they are going to look at you really funny for a long time and then procceed to laugh at you. (most competitive racing does not allow dry sump unless it originally came with the car)

Like I have stated in the past it is a great motor (aside from the fact that the oil system was desinged by a third grader) and I am not dissing it or anything it is just not for me and IMO still a waste of money and once I am done with building NA all the way I will probably go turbo. but definitely not a K. But you say get bored **** I have so many little and big project with this car that it will be a long time before i get bored.

Also the chain tensioner became evident way before the elise guys realized it. It was discovered over in japan by guys like spoon and toda who had the k-series on the track way before any one else. Also you probably don't know this but lotus was the first to put the honda type r motor in not some elise owners it was brought to america and used as a test car there were only about 5 in the us but a california company saw the type r motor in the elise by lotus and made there own kit when they were disappointed to see that lotus went with the toyota motor. with out the lsd, and more weght.

I have built more honda motors than you and know the oiling system better and the inner workings of the K, B, H, F, D series motors better than most of the guys on this forum so save the "your wrong" crap for some one else.

-1 for being just another one of those guys that has to go on! and on! about how the k swap is better than everything thing else, I'm so sick and tired of always listening to that stupid **** all the time
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Old 01-11-2009   #112  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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-1 for being just another one of those guys that has to go on! and on! about how the k swap is better than everything thing else, I'm so sick and tired of always listening to that stupid **** all the time
Oh, No you did not!! You freaking took one away from me. I am not going to argue your rederick above, that is not what this thread is about. I don't think I went on and on about how the Kswap is better than everything else, but as far as making more power in an EM2 civic, you cannot do any better.

I have been around this forum in some shape or form for the past 6 years, and have seen a ton of people go through NA builds for D17s, boosting D17s, Kswaps, boosted Kswaps ect. Bottom line if you have the $ the K is the way to go, you cannot argue it. Granted I have seen some really nice turbo builds and some guys are happy with it. I have also seen a ton of guys selling their turbo setup to go K because it just does not do it for them, or it is not reliable. I have no reason to be bias, look at my sig. I don't even own a K anymore.

As far as trying to build the D17 to be something more than it is NA, is IMO as complete waste of time and $. You would get pretty much the same power from a K20a3 swap, which you could do for the same price, and then boost it to get 250+whp when you get tired of it. As far as boosting your NA build, last I checked good NA builds make bad turbo builds, so looks like you are back to the drawing board before you go from NA to boost.
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Old 01-11-2009   #113  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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I am not going to argue your rederick above, that is not what this thread is about.
Did you mean "rhetoric?"

This is a NA d17 thread so lets keep it on topic for d17s. If you want to discuss flaws (or the lack there of) of K series engines then you should start a separate thread. Some how threads supporting NA D17s always get shot to **** and I don't like that.
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Old 01-11-2009   #114  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

^^^agreed
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Old 01-11-2009   #115  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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Some how threads supporting NA D17s always get shot to **** and I don't like that.
I am not shooting anything to ****, I even said that I thought it was a neat idea. Infact I intend on checking up on this thread to see just what you guys can do NA with these motor, because I am truely intrigued, just glad it is not my money. D-series engines have changed very little over the years, if these things were worth building it would be more of a common thing. The thing is everyone already figured out that the only thing they are good for is throwing some boost at because they make pretty good power with boost, and they are a dime a dozen. For NA power the swap has always been the Honda way.

BTW I am not the one who brought the comparrison of a K-series into this thread. I am just supporting my opinion that it is the best bang for the buck when it comes to making these cars worth while.

Anyway, I think I made my opinion on the issue pretty clear, I am done. I will let members who are debating on how to make their EM2 go fast, research and make their own decisions on what is the best way.

And yes I meant rhetoric, you can follow me around and check my spelling in every thread if you would like, god knows I could use it .
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Old 01-11-2009   #116  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

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Originally Posted by EMK20a2 View Post
I am done. I will let members who are debating on how to make their EM2 go fast, research and make their own decisions on what is the best way.
Cool, Lets leave at that. You too Bomer (with regards to the K motor discussion). Please keep the d17 info flowing though!
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Old 01-11-2009   #117  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

http://bisimoto.net/store/index.php?...roducts_id=254
I don't know if anyone has posted these ITBs yet, I searched and found nothing. It might be possible to re-flange one of these and get it to work.
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Old 03-03-2009   #118  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

Triz, are you ever getting back at that NA build?
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Old 03-03-2009   #119  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build

I just dropped 3 grand on a CPA review course last week... money that was going to go toward the car. So **** me, I'm pretty broke now and its on hold. Son of a bitch...
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Old 03-04-2009   #120  
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Re: Getting back at that NA build, BUILD ON HOLD

Sell your body for the car. I'm sure there are a lot of asian girls looking to play with triz, the stud.
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