Wankenstein

1998 Civic EX (D16Y8) stock, A/T, 148K miles.

While replacing a head gasket: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/2...cylinders.html
I decided to slip the timing belt off, keep tension on it (zip tied), and slip it back on after head gasket install. Before I slipped it off I used white out on the cam gear and timing belt to mark reposition after machine shop. I set the cam at TDC and timing marks on the crankshaft pulley were spot on.
I took it to the machine shop and told the machinist how I marked the cam and timing belt. The machinist said he set the cylinder head valves and cam with "UP' mark in the exact same position as I gave it to him.

After I slipped the timing belt back on (matched mark on timing belt and cam) I turned the crankshaft counter-clockwise manually to set valve clearance and noticed after a few revolutions it jumped about three teeth. I rotated the crankshaft a few more times to get to TDC and held my thumb in the spark plug hole of the first cylinder and the belt jumped more teeth. I noticed on the down-stroke there was plenty of suction however on the upstroke I couldn't feel much air (compression) with my thumb. Used a long screwdriver to get it back to TDC.
From the beginning (all spark plugs removed) during the valve lash the engine turned (manually) with little resistance and I didn't hear anything abnormal. I just can't figure out why when first slipped the timing belt on it seemed to have very good tension but, after a few rotations it started to slip and jump teeth. Very concerned at this point.

ezone

IDK what happened, but here's the stuff that popped into mind:

If you rotated the crankshaft the wrong way, it can jump time.

If you spun the tensioner pulley with the spring attached, you can overstretch the spring.

If you removed the spring and forgot to reinstall it, it can skip teeth and jump time.

Wankenstein

I rotated crankshaft in the counter- clockwise direction : http://s639.photobucket.com/user/Ron..._3576.jpg.html
I followed this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts-AbU4RvTQ
I didn't replace any timing or tensioning parts and didn't remove camshaft bolt/harmonic balancer..

Should I now move forward and do what I should have done in the first and replace with a timing belt kit OR just pull crankshaft bolt/harmonikc balancer, realign timing marks, retension and hope for the best,
Does skipping several teethl always equal bent valves?
This read gives me some hope: http://honda-tech.com/honda-crx-ef-c...amage-2501158/

Wankenstein

I haven't removed the lower timing belt cover yet but at this point my best guess (and your thought Ezone too) is the belt was too tight when I slipped it back on and it broke either the tensioner or tensioner spring. I feel like an idiot for not taking proper steps.

mikey1

are you saying you removed the timing belt from the camshaft without taking the tension off the belt first?



my guess is after you removed the belt the crank might have turned slightly, did you check the CRANK marks before and after you re-installed the belt?

Wankenstein

Unfortunately, yes as it was shown in the video (not mine) that I posted earlier.
I' ve read other posts of people doing it that way too. I did check the crank pulley marks (not the timing gear behind the pulley) and the the cam was in the UP position at TDC before and after I slipped the belt back on. I then checked for belt tension by twisting the belt and it seemed okay. I know the belt has more tension on it's downward rotation past TDC (up mark on cam gear). Very stupid of me not to check the tensioner and spring after I slipped the belt on.
Even after the belt jumped teeth the cam gear's UP mark is still at TDC and crankshaft pulley marks are still lining up.

mikey1

if this is indeed true, then you should be fine,

go by the timing marks, ignore the mark you made on the belt,

i would suggest rotating the engine a good 10-20 times by hand before starting it and keep checking the marks,

Wankenstein

I forgot to say that before I slipped the belt off for the head gasket replacement I marked the top and side of timing belt with white out at the the TDC/ UP mark location (as shown in video) and that's how I know it has jumped teeth. Also, why I suspect tensioner or spring failure.

After the amount spent on the DIY head gasket repair for machine shop (resurface, lapp, pressure test,cleaning) $200, gasket set + thermostat $150 and additional tools $80 (helicoil for headbolt thread in block + socket) I wanted to reuse timing belt for a short while just to make sure the head gasket is sealing correctly and not overheating.
So, now I plan to buy a timing belt kit like i should have done in the first place.

mikey1

after all this work you did and all the money you spent, why not just replace the timing belt also? its only like another $25 bucks?

take the extra time and do it right, take the crank pulley off and lower timing cover, check the marks and replace the belt,

i would never trust a timing belt again after what you just did to it,

Wankenstein

Try a minimum of $125 because in my case I don't have records of when the timing belt, water pump, tensioner, ac belt, steering pump belt, alternator belt, crankshaft gasket were last changed. To do it right while replacing the timing belt I'll need to do and pay for all of those using as many OEM parts as possible (affordable).

mikey1

you dont nessessarily need all those other items, but i would definitely replace the timing belt, its quality right now is in question after what you did, its cheap, and it will let you verify/check the timing marks on the timing belt crank pulley while you are replacing it

Wankenstein

I will at minimum replace the tensioner, timing belt and waterpump.I don't want to go through all the mess again just to have the water pump possibly fail and cause overheating and possible head gasket breach,

ezone

OMFG I did not realize you were using this as your reference.

ALWAYS use the timing marks the factory gave you. They are there for a reason.

Wankenstein

I followed the video I linked. Why it worked for him and not me I don't know why. I didn't use the mark I made on the timing belt as a reference, it showed me that it had jumped teeth from where it should have stayed = the "UP" spoke of the cam gear.
The white line on the outside and side of the belt was put back on at the same position it was taken off of, as I marked the spot on the cam gear in white out as well.

When I get a chance I will remove the harmonic balancer pulley and line it all up correctly with a new timing belt kit: http://www.amazon.com/Evergreen-TBK2...ype=automotive

mikey1

how are you so sure it jumped teeth?

that reference mark you made on the belt and on the cam may not line up every time you rotate the engine, but that doesn't mean it jumped teeth

ezone

The two timing gears run at exactly 2:1 ratio, but the belt drive does not factor the same way.
It might require 276 crank revolutions before any markings on the timing belt return to their original starting points on the timing gears.
This is why you always use the markings provided by the factory.


The TDC timing mark on the harmonic balancer is the same as the TDC mark on the crank gear.

EDIT: If the head was machined, the belt would be looser because the pulleys are now closer together, thus necessitating readjustment of t-belt tension.

Only $80? Were those parts knitted from an old sock?

Wankenstein

I assumed that the white mark on the belt would always land on the same spot on the cam during each cam revolution. Glad you guys cleared that up for me. So, it makes sense now that the cam's TDC "UP" mark and crankshaft pulley marks are still lining up.

"The TDC timing mark on the harmonic balancer is the same as the TDC mark on the crank gear."
Does that mean I will not need to pull off the crankshaft pulley to view the timing gear for a readjustment of the t-belt tension?

The head was resurfaced however, it is possible that the OEM Nippon (leakless) head gasket is thicker than the prior. I've read one way to gauge tension is to twist the timing belt (downward rotation/front side) with thumbs and fingers and it should twist no more than 180 degrees.

Set tension like this?:
http://s199.photobucket.com/user/Cle...nsion.jpg.html

http://s199.photobucket.com/user/Cle...moval.jpg.html

http://s199.photobucket.com/user/Cle...moval.jpg.html

This way? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=651ocCMBZaA

As far as the timing kit... Amazon is taking over the world..lol.

ezone

TDC is TDC is TDC no matter which gear or mark you want to stare at.

The marks are provided on the timing gear and oil pump so one doesn't have to put the black cover and balancer back on to find the marks.
Redundant sets of TDC marks.

Hell, I can stare at the keyway and see it straight up and know it's damn near TDC.

If you want to pull a spark plug and verify #1 piston is at the top of its travel at the same time the marks are lined up, it's still TDC.

TDC is only for #1 piston (and its companion on the crank, in the case of most 4 cylinder engines it's #4).

#1 piston reaches TDC twice in each 4 stroke cycle.

Crank:cam drive ratio is always 2:1

Cam could be on either #4 or #1 when your crank is at TDC marks, thus the word UP in stamped into the cam gear so everyone knows when it's on #1 firing position, generally known as TDC.
Unless it was specifically identified as a thicker gasket, don't assume it is.

That's not a real accurate way to judge IMO but it's usable.

Tensioning of the timing belt is only expected to be done once in its life, during initial setup.
Setting tension the factory way on a used belt is considered iffy because the belt has already been "run-in" and some of its expected stretch has already occurred.
It could end up too tight.

That looks like pages from a book, and I can't read so I sure hope you can!

Oh hell no. Don't even try that.
You (seem to) have a book. Use it.
Caveat Emptor.



HTH

mikey1

HELL NO!

the teeth on the belt have no relation to the rotation of the cam and crank TDC positions,

Wankenstein

Before I pulled the head I put my thumb over #1 spark plug hole and felt for air pushing up while turning the crank manually and eying the cam gear. As soon as I felt air (not suction) I inserted a long flat head screw driver and stopped it when the piston reached it's highest point and the cam gear's up mark at 12 o'clock position. When I pulled the head off pistons 1 & 4 where at their peaks just below the top of the cylinder walls. I didn't rotate the crank until the head and timing belt were put back on.
The machinist said he put everything on the head back to the same way I handed it to him: with the up mark at 12 o'clock. I didn't rotate the cam from the time I set the engine at TDC before breakdown until I put the head and timing belt back on.

Here's the conundrum that I've been faced with from the start: I want to make sure the engine is running after doing what I hope is a solid head gasket replacement before I dump more money into with a new timing belt kit. I figured if it cranks over and everything works properly the way it is set up now, then I'd run it for a week or two (do a couple oil changes and an additional coolant flush) and put a new timing belt kit on it when I'm confident the head gasket repair is holding up. after those one or two weeks.
If it isn't running correctly then I have bigger decisions to make.

Is there anywhere in the manual or elsewhere that states an exact tension?
It states to rotate the crank six times counter clockwise and if cam gear and crank pulley marks align each time then timing should be good to go. I've spun mine that many times and they keep aligning correctly. I fully understand what you and mikey1 are saying about the timing belt possibly being stretched and they height differences after the head was milled. In it's present state it seems the tension is good based on the twisting/180 degree method. If I post a video of cam gear, crank pulley marks during rotation, as well as twisting the belt 180 would that help?

My most poignant question is: if it looks okay to you guys on video could I use that way for very short time at low speeds to ensure the head gasket repair is not leaking coolant or running poorly? I hope I am making sense if not, just tell me please.

ezone

Seems reasonable IMO.
As far as some sort of assigned numerical value, none that I'm aware of.
The method printed in the service manual is good enough.

Nope.


------------------------------------------------------------

Since you plan on replacing it:
In the interest of not running it with the belt TOO loose right now, I'd perform the tensioning procedure as outlined in the service manual now.
(Too loose would be worse than too tight right now IMO.)


It probably won't end up feeling much different from how tight it feels right now, but at least we can be assured it would not be TOO loose.

IIRC you shouldn't even need to pull the lower timing cover off, there should be an access hole with a cap over it to get to the bolt holding down the tensioner pulley.

ezone

Tensioner bolt access hole cap, item #2

Wankenstein

Thank you for the reply and diagram Ezone. I will have time to work on it Wednesday.
After I tension the timing belt down and finish up the valve adjustment I plan to manually crank it over about 20 more times as mikey1 suggested to watch alignment marks. If all is well I will put valve cover and other parts necessary to button it up.
Any recommendations for a start-up and/or post start-up procedure to monitor the head gasket that the service manual may not list?

ezone

That whole part in the manual about turning the crank 6 times is to allow the belt to find its own center on each pulley before proceeding to the tensioning process.
If it's still in correct time at 6 revolutions and you tension it correctly, it will stay in time.

Meh, I dunno what you've done to this point.

Pull the oil drain plug just slide it to the side but not all the way out, see if any antifreeze or water comes out. Let it out if it does. If not, then it will have to get mixed with the oil before it comes out.

I try to avoid putting any large load on the engine until after the first hot oil change.

Bolt the distributor in the exact same spot it used to be, using the outlines of the bolts and washers as your guide. I strike a small chisel across both dist and head before removal so I have an exact mark to realign.

I set my valves to the larger (looser) specs.

Fill with coolant and set up ready to top off and burp before initial fire up.
I love the funnel-fill for this. If the stream of bubbles never quits, you may have a problem....but don't be fooled by gurgles that make it look like bubbles and don't be fooled by the air pocket in the top of the radiator that can't escape because of the depth of the adapter in the radiator (I shaved the ends down flush with the rubber gaskets on mine).
I've been known to stretch a rubber glove over the funnel so I can see if there's really any change in volume.
Looks like Autozone has the funnels now?

If need be, I find it's easier to manually burp heater lines when it's cooled off


HTH?

Wankenstein

Okay. Got it.

? , I drained old oil and coolant out before tearing down for head-gasket. I suctioned out block's coolant jacket with a shop vac. After head reinstalled I poured oil in head's drain ports with drain plug out per your suggestion. I reinstalled oil drain plug and filter, poured in about 3 quarts over cam & valve springs just before I did valve adjustment..

Okay. I plan to change oil again after first 30 minutes of run time

Mark chiseled in by previous owner

Is that .009 for intake and .011 for exhaust? After researching I set them two days ago at .007 intake and .009 exhaust

Continuous,larger bubbles led me to believe head gasket breech initially... head gasket (blue to yellow) tester confirmed it. I hope I don't see those again, I expect to see tiny bubbles from air pockets. I will squeeze the heater hoses when cold as you suggest.
I plan to burp the cooling system while the car is on jack stands.

ezone

I forgot. You know how many different threads I stick my nose in here? LOL

I dunno what your specs are but if that's in spec it'll be fine. I'm just telling how I do it in the shop. I set them at the loose spec because so many Hondas tighten up valves instead of getting looser as they wear.

Loose valves just make noise.. Tight valves burn. I know which I prefer.
Set the temperature to hot so the water valve will open all the way.
Leave the heater fan turned off.
This will let water flow through the heater core and hopefully burp that part of the system.
If you have the heater fan running that will delay the thermostat opening and might stop the radiator fan from running

IDK if that will burp out cleanly or not, I guess it will depend on how empty it got while opened. Sometimes the hoses can be manipulated to work the air out, other time I've had to open up a connection to let trapped air out.
Of course I could be blurring so many different cars together in my head too.

Once you think it's got the heater lines burped out, THEN turn the fan on full blast and wait a few minutes, see if the vent temperature stays hot enough to scald or if it cools off a little and blows 'less hot' air.
If you rev it up and get great heat, then let it idle and heater temp goes down noticeably, there's still air trapped in it. (This is really noticeable in the winter)


That's all I can think of. Half of this might not even happen LOL.

Wankenstein

They should rename this section; "The Ezone" sounds cool anyway.


I followed this: http://www.civic-eg.com/causeforalarm/D16Y/index.php
Is it possible there is conflicting information on the internet? LOL
The valve cover is off and although it's a bit tedious I don't like the sound of burnt valves
so which do you suggest I = ,008 & E = .010 or I = .009 & E = .011

My plan is to use boiled water and let it cool to about 180 degrees then add this:
http://www.carid.com/images/prestone...als/as105y.jpg to help flush out any sediments, possible rust and then burp per your suggestion. I bough two bottles: one for initial 20 to 30 minute flush and then repeat a drain and fill with another bottle of this stuff and water for a 3 day flush. After 3 days drain and fill with 50/50 coolant, burp and hope all is good,

Thanks for the vote of confidence.. Lol.

ezone

If set to specs they won't have a problem.

It's the future I think of when doing customer work. I just assume they can eventually tighten up and I want to stave that off as long as reasonably possible so I set to the looser spec.
You just had the head off and probably saw the bottom of the coolant jacket areas of the engine block. DId you see any such rust or sediment?

Wankenstein

Didn't see rust, probably vacuumed out sediment if it was present... being overly cautious I guess.

ezone

I personally don't like to use chemicals to flush a cooling system without a definite purpose. If it looked clean while you had it apart, I wouldn't expect any different in the rest of the system.