TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

So in an effort to cut costs...

Is a AEM FIC going to be enough or do I need the AEM standalone / Hondata?

The build: LX to EX head swap... stage 2 cam, valves and valve train, pistons and rods.. possible pnp.

I know there are a number of ppl that say "oh yeah its going to work, its what Im getting, you should get it." If I remember correctly, I thought dezod said it wasnt going to be enough? So.... what the hell is the answer?

ronaldo9

iTrader: (6)

Triz, it will work as its superior to a VAFC 2 and emanage. As long as you have O2 skewing you can tune it better for closed loop driving than when I had my emanage. You wont be able to fix the erratic idle and can't bump up the rev limiter, that would be the only drawback.

dezod

iTrader: (74)

What are you doing? All motor I presume Triz?

02BLKCIVIC

iTrader: (8)

yah its great for closed loop tuning, no relearing like with the VAFC 2's.

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

Fo sho.. all this turbo talk has me wanting to be different

I got the stage 2 cam from you over the summer, along with the springs and retainers, remember??

Well ****, if it cant change the rev limiter and my idle is still messed up then forget the FIC.

Somebody should be carrying hondata!! *nudge*

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

if you pnp the head, whatever you do make sure they dont mill the head any. just port the exhaust side (and header to match) and dont touch the intake side. and get angled valve job. vafc is a joke, stay clear of that lol. you may need a cam gear too if you switch the cam. would give you more opportunity to tune it properly.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

IMO triz go K-pro my stage 2 idles so nicely with just a base dyno tune that I am now seriously contemplating a stage 3 for the street and raising that rev limit another 1200 or so rpm makes a difference with that cam you will alway feel held back until you can raise the rev limit.

with the other parts you plan to do in the future your are going to have to rev all the way up and then some to get all the power out of it.

So IMHO save a little more money get the k-pro and you will be a lot happier in the long run

02BLKCIVIC

iTrader: (8)

k pro if you can afford it is the way to go

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

Okay... I am new to machine work on motors- please explain the concepts behind these suggestions if you could.


I have a vafc2, lol... havent installed it, yet I do have it. My orig idea was to just swap the head and just grab a stage1, but then I was like lets go big and grab stage 2 and the valve train upgrade.... and now its like lets just build the hell outta the whole head.

I wouldnt mind building the block, but I honestly dont know how much that might help anything. Any ideas?

If I go kpro, I'm covered with the cam gear since its included.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

vafcii hardly does anything, few hp on the dyno and it just gets adjusted back to stock by the ecu. you can feel it the first day and thats it.

for porting NA head, you do not want to mill/shave the mating surface to raise compression bc your gasket will just blow out. usually its best not to port the intake side for a few reasons. one, you want the rough grooved surface that the stock head has to make the air turbulent (so it mixes with fuel and burns better). for turbo, it doesnt matter since you have so much more flow anyway. two, the intake mani ports are already matched to the head so increasing the size wont help things, and port matching a plastic manifold could get tricky.

for the exhaust side, you want them to be a bit bigger (dont go nuts tho, its still not turboed) and also they should be smooth to promote faster exhaust flow. naturally, you need to find or port a header that will match the head ports. that will make more difference. then you could also have the valves done, to increase airflow a bit (may as well since you will be swapping new valvetrain anyway and have it all apart). a well ported head can give you upto 15whp.

another good mod is the maxbore.com ported TB, but you will need to know how to adjust the TPS properly, or you will get an engine light for high voltage. its good because the IM is slightly larger than the stock TB and porting it will match them up perfectly and provide more airflow. also if you have a spare, try grey's knife edging diy of the throttle plate and also at least do the countersinking of the screws to gain a bit more flow.

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

I bought a 5 Speed CRV ECU for $115 shipped, then I paid Joe at Locash $940 to Kpro it and get me the Hondata Cam Gear. Buying from a yard at least gets you a warranty unlike eGay.

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

I'll have to check out the throttle body boring, I had always wondered why ppl bothered with it.

Countersinking? Uhh, whats that?? Newb 2 engine building, I will admit that.

Damn Rufus, Thats pretty cheap for kpro from what I've seen. Link to this "Locash" place would be helpful. The place sounds like a good match kuz I'm low on cash, lol.

Rufus

iTrader: (17)

www.locashracing.com

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

look up grey's old diy. countersink is just to redo the screws on the plate so they sit flush instead of sticking out and blocking airflow.

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

Well I do have an extra throttle body... an extra ex header, and even an extra intake manifold. I guess I got some things to play with on my hands.

I dont see Kpro anywhere, just the s100 and s300?

familycar

iTrader: (4)

you do know your in for a $3500 cost for this build, to make 150whp right?? the d17 is expensive to build and responds much better to boost.
i am not trying to start anything, but i was on this trip for a while too. until i bought a few things and started to realize what it was going to cost in the end

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

Yeah yeah....

Is there ANY benefit to building the block- pistons/rods crank work??? I mean, its low HP, so its not like I risk cracking cylinders in half.

civic-driver

iTrader: (4)

well lightening the crank can help you rev faster along with lighter stronger rods.. and if your getting k-pro upping the compression in the pistons is always an option to make so more power with the cam.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

domed pistons for higher compression? and arp headstuds?

wikkaco0

Civic GX pistons, cheap high compression.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

the natural gas car? wow didnt know that.

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

Boiler and I talked about the gx pistons before, even though they are 12.5 to 1 compression ratio pistons when you stick them in the regular d17A2 engine I gather the head is a little differently shaped it causes you to end up with something like 13.1 to 1 compression ratio which is awesome if they carry race gas at you local pump,LOL!

So basicly the sad fact is that you can't run that high of compression on pump gas and if you could that tune would be so conservative that it wouldn't be worth it.

wikkaco0

I was under the impression the GX pistons amounted to about 11.9:1 in a D17A1 or D17A2. This of course using what information I could find on the internet and using a web based compression calculator.

http://zealautowerks.com/dseries.htm
http://heeltoeauto.com/httech/YaBB.p...160787887/0#0l

bomerman19

iTrader: (1)

no Sadly the gx piston alone is a 12.5:1 if it was 11.9:1 they would be sitting in my engine right now. hehe

and with the head boiler was telling me that it would bump the compression even higher, he was playing with the numbers along time ago when there were a couple of extra blocks laying around and he was having a lot of machining done for his closet built monster it all came down to the same conclusion that it just wasn't worth it.

that's why I am N/A cause not too many people do it and I love! my stage 2 cam lol!

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

Hmm, These were the pistons we were talking about the other week. I'll have to look over the numbers on those pistons a little later after I get back... how much do they go for and where at.

What about sleeving the cylinders? Pointless? I guess compression will be higher soo...

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

Sleeving is not necessary for an NA D17 Triz. Hell it's not even necessary for 350whp blown D17. Don't even consider it, especially since sleeving is going to run in excess of $800.

Try to think of your NA build like this. You are trying to get as much air into the engine as possible without forcing it with a turbo or supercharger (i.e. forced induction). Anything you can do to get more air into the engine (PnP head, bigger cam, bored out TB, better IM) and allow the engine to utilize it better (high-comp pistons, k-pro for tuning) will yield you more horsepower.

Maximizing this efficiency by reducing the energy required to turn the crankshaft (lighter flywheel, knife-edged and balanced crankshaft, lighter pulleys) and reducing the parasitic drag on the engine (removed or electric PS, lighter wheels and tires, don't pull AC it's a magnetic clutch and has no drag) will equate to more horsepower put down at the wheels.

All this needs to be balanced with parts that will take the stress of a high compression, high revving engine (Crower maxi-lite rods, ARP head studs).

You may also want to think about weight reduction and improving air flow into the engine bay. I'd dump the full rad for an aluminum half rad with custom mounts, and run a custom ram-air type induction kit in that opened up space.

I admire you for continuing to go down the NA road as only a couple people have done it.

But I still think you should just boost it!

ryox82

iTrader: (4)

good info clint. I am doing the same thing as the subject states, but my car is an auto civic so AEM EMS or Hondata are not even an option. The only difference is I am just going to build the head and cam it, then save up for the turbo :-) I am thinking of trying for 250whp

TRIZ

iTrader: (14)

Haha, Yeah your tight- "got NA?" just doesnt have the same ring as "got boost?"

Anybody got any links to places well known for crank work? I had come across a site before but just havent been able to find it again. Also what kind of pully upgrades are out threre. AEM has some, but they kind of suck and everyone has them. There was another company that made some, once again I cant remember who they were. I'd like to have some unique parts on my car and these are perfect opportunities to get them- but only if they are known to be reliable andd of high quality.

Whats this electric power steering about?

ryox82

iTrader: (4)

like I said in the other thread Triz, crower does make custom crankshafts, they just have a long turn around, you would have to contact them on the pricing.

speedfoos

iTrader: (17)

Yeah Ernie. There aren't many auto trannies that can handle 250-300whp from boost if they aren't designed to from the factory.

There are two ways to run an electric PS conversion. One is to get the whole rack and pump off a Hybrid or an EDM Civic (I think the EP3 has electric steering too) and install that. The other is to just replace the belt-driven pump with an electric one. The new Minis come with an electric pump and I'm sure there have been 1000s of rich high-school girls who have wrapped them around telephone poles that you can find a pump at a junkyard. Just be mindful of the draw the pump has as you may need an uprated alternator.

Most any good, local machine shop should be able to knife edge and balance a crankshaft. I'd call around and ask for prices. Unorthodox makes a lightened crank pulley (different from the underdrive). I would not do a lightened crank pulley unless you do crank and new bearings too. Changing the crank pulley without changing out the bearings will create a different wear pattern and have a greater potential of giving you problems down the road