Rep Power: 388

^ you *****, lol.

Update, Bought stage 2 cam and valve springs the other week, got them last week. Ripping the head apart as we speak- cant figure out how to replace the springs though... I think I know how to do it, but just dont want to have to do it. Dyno'd yesterday... dun dun dun, editing the video tomorrow, so updates coming soon

 
Rep Power: 297

valve srping compressor is your best friend... if you taking apart you might as well change the valve seals too

 
Rep Power: 388

Yeah, I thought about it... but if they seem fine, I'll just wait on it till the valve get changed as well.

 
Rep Power: 291

Whats going on with the build Triz? I really hope its still happening.

 
Rep Power: 237

after reading this thread, i was wondering...who makes high compression pistons for d17 anyways? I know there are pistons that lower compression, but haven't heard of any aftermarket company that makes high comp ones for n/a. I do know however, that the stock pistons that are in the GX civic give 12.5 comp ratio, which is a lot higher than ex/dx/lx.

 
Rep Power: 388

It is still happening. But in slow motion. Gotta wait on thoes checks to come through- but thats life.

I ordered valve guides yesterday from majestic. Saved 60 bucks by not getting them at the dealership.

I need valves now. Not sure what I wanna do there- oversized on both sides, coated, stainless, stock or aftermarket. Choices and more choices. Doing research.

 
Rep Power: 291

Haha... yeah I understand about money. I've been watching Speedfoos build up this amazing turbo setup and was wondering what happened to the NA man. I'm glad this project isn't falling through like most NA builds. Good to hear.

 
Rep Power: 424

How high are you planning on winding that thing? I'd say you probably dont need new valves. Just an FYI... a couple honda challenge guys were working on a motor they dubbed the "Super D". It was a D17 rotating assembly in a D16 block (effectively a stroker) with a Z6 head, and a huge cam. They used GX slugs. It made crazy power (since the compression was something like 14:1) but the rods do not like high RPMs (they're the weak link, since they're like toothpicks). If you're going to rev the **** out of this thing.... build the bottom end, and wind it all the way until the cam dies.... then get a bigger cam.

Wiseco

 
Rep Power: 257

wow good thread subscribed. cant wait for the finished product and numbers triz

 
Rep Power: 388

Werds boiler...

The bottom end will probably come next summer. I'm planning on getting it together before I have to go back to school... (starts 24th) but that is coming a little too fast so might have to push swapping the head till the winter... or just wait and drop the whole built motor in at once next summer- which would be painfull to wait that long, but that is probably best. Plus, if I wait, I can have a nice p&p done- which would free up some power.

There are pistons and rods availb.. but I'd like to see a nice crankshaft come out before I build the bottom end. The D16's have build kits out, but our D17 is moving slow once again. I know I need to read up more on the bottom end. From what I remember, the D16 crankshaft wont work. I also need to figure out what kind of compression would work best with what components... custom possibly (spendy). I'm not sure if I'd have to sleeve it. Gotta read up.



Got a link to that build your talking about?

 
Rep Power: 424

No I dont, it was word of mouth last weekend at the track. You dont need a new crank, honda cranks are virtually indestructable. If I were you, I'd call darton, or benson or someone who does sleeving, and find out just how big you can bore those suckers if you re-sleeve it. Then call Race Engineering in Florida and see how big of a slug they can get you (they get customs from Wiseco. If you can get that thing out to 77 or 78mm, well.... any displacement will help you.

 
Rep Power: 266

i already talked to darton about sleeves and they said their sleeves can be bored to 77mm max. the email is in my suggestions thread thats in my sig. and triz those blocks where aluminum so it should be fine. i hope you get this thing running triz it should be fun

 
Rep Power: 388

Yet expensive... I got the valve guides coming in sometime this week or next.

Word on the valves?

 
Rep Power: 275

There is an article on the Super D motor build in the August issue of Honda Tuning. And at one point Crower did do a crank for are car's but if I remember correctly it was really pricey $$$$$ and it was a stock D17 crank that they just ground down and balanced.

 
Rep Power: 424

Stock redline, no
Higher redline, yes. And if you go to stainless valves you may want bronze exhaust guides, they're a little "slicker" than the stock ones.

 
Rep Power: 388

^ well ****, order is already in fed'ex's hands... Could always return majestics parts to honda and get some extra money, ha.

Okay... so maybe you can shed light on this valve dilema boiler...

I'm trying to figure out what to run... NA of course... I talked to my machine shop guy who has built every kind of motor out there since before we were born... He suggested bigger valves on the exhaust side.. but didnt say anything about the intake side. Now... It would make sence that I'd want bigger valves, get the air in quicker... esp helpfull if I build the bottom end and increase the piston size... right? Or is bigger on the intake side going to be counter productive to a good NA compression (a compression that yeilds high power power, yet safe to run as a daily driver as well)? Now... I'm told +1mm is going to be too big for the cylinder head- even more will need to be shaved away to make the valves fit... now with building the bottom end vs not building the bottom end... which am I going to want to do- I'm thinking if I dont build the bottom then +.5mm will be good... but if I build it then +1mm will allow room for better performance?

A little more about valve sizes.... same on exhaust and intake... on side larger- what?

What about coatings vs non coated and stainless? I havent found much of anything about this.

And I know the design of the head of the valve plays a role... (this may be getting too technical for anyone on this forum) but do I want it flater or curved for a non built bottom end, vs overbored and built with out D17? I dont think anyone has researched this... flow testing anyone?


Edit: and yes... higher redline... somewhere around the 8k range

 
Rep Power: 303

increasing the size of the intake valves allows a larger volume of air to be pulled through, but at a lower velocity. with a N/a build velocity needs to be maintained. its not like a forced induction motor where your actually forcing air in through the valves. most hondas being built for anything short of a full race car wont need much if any intake valve size increase. that is another reason why you will see most builds to have increased redline to make more power. make sure the cam as well as the rods and pistons you use will be able to take the rev limit you decide. but you will also never be able to change the rev limiter unless you go with EMS.

 
Rep Power: 266

Good thread...how much can I get from the following

ex headswap
stage 2 cam
valvetrain upgrade (springs, retainers)
race header
test pipe
2.25 piping
e-manage blue
tune
intake

all combined

Dont wana do boost..cost and reliability and gains dont pan out for me. I HAVE the intake and exhaust if I can get everything else done for ~1500 and have ~150whp im happy!

 
Rep Power: 303

you may get around 125whp, you will need EMS to raise the rev limiter or k-pro. otherwise a stage 2 cam is a waste of money, you will get the same gains from a stg1 because you cant raise the rev limiter for the stg 2 cam. with a stg 2 and EMS you should be able to pull off about 150whp, but you will also spend about 3-4k on a build like that and have 100whp less than with boost.
i am not trying to talk you in to boost just making the harsh truth more apparent

 
Rep Power: 266

for a good stage 2 build the cost is around 2 grand including valvetrain and ems if you look around and such and the highest was at 146 hp on a dynapack dyno with k-pro. for the 3-4k you can get a better build with head porting and start into the bottom end. look at the threads in my signature for a lot more info and a price list of NA components.

 
Rep Power: 303

i dont know where you are comming up with $2k. Ems and Kpro are both almost $1500 complete.Then cam and Valves, and springs/retainers. Head studs, head gasket, Port N polish, and hopefully you would do some sort of intake manifold and t/b mods as well because it cause a huge bottle neck not to.
So once again IDK where you get $2k from. This is just top end still and I even forgot to include injectors...

 
Rep Power: 266

boost it is

 
Rep Power: 303

look in your own thread too man, you yourself even have the physical parts listed just for the head and it came to $2095 for vtec and $2595 for vtec conversion, then add tunning. i am telling you , you are way off with the whole $2k thing. I too was on this gig for a while. once i started collecting parts and pricing to finish up i got over it real quick for the hp-$$ ratio. boost is much cheaper

 
Rep Power: 266

i never said with the port and polish and other stuff was 2 grand.... i said for the 3-4 k you could have the higher end build with the other goodies that were mentioned. basically you can get the valvetrain and camshaft from 600-700 and sometimes better if you get one of the ones floating around the forsale section. that plus you 1500 engine management you get like 2100 for parts which is what i was talking about with the 2 grand comment. then another 500 for tuning depending on the shop and such so its more of a 2600 all said and done. that is more of a 3 grand. the head studs would not be overly necessary and yes im aware that the stock arent made to be removed but people do it with turbo setups and dont have problems so why would the stock compression hurt them? has anyone ever needed different injectors for a stage 2 build? and the head gasket another 60 -80 dollars? i never said the the Hp to cost ratio was better than a turbo i was just saying that its not as super expensive as every says it is and even if you do buy the new head studs and gasket and stuff it just makes the setup more reliable with less things to go wrong in comparison to the turbo setups. and as a disclaimer these are the off hand prices from my memory and i didnt go and look up every part cause i have to go to class. im not trying to cause a huge argument i just dont want everyone to be pushed away from NA builds when there have been very few to do them. yes so of it is because the engine isnt the best platform but that never stopped the earlier d-series guys from doing it. alright im going to be late i have to go later.

 
Rep Power: 303

i am not trying to argue either, but it would be a waste of money to install a stage 2 cam with out headwork. that adds about $1k to the mix. and you still only at 150whp. with out the pNp your going to be around 120whp. now is it worth it to put $2600 in to a set up for a 30hp gain(90whp-120whp). That is expensive, really expensive. on top of that you DO need a good exhaust and header as well as intake. Not to mention to take advantage of the $3600 you just spent you should also need a better intake manifold and throttlebody, and injectors.
i understand what your trying to do, but in reality your leaving a lot of stuff to be desired. what your talking about is just to have a stage 2 cam installed not building a n/a car. you wont get 150whp with out a i/m & t/b, and headwork. and again if you dont already have a header and complete exhaust you will also need that. I am not trying to kill anyones buzz but make sure you know what it would take to get the car to the 150whp level n/a. remember i was once on this bandwagon as well, then i found out how truely expensive it would be to build and what i would end up with. i since bought a dc_2 and swapped in a b20. much better platform for a n/a build

 
Rep Power: 323

I agree completely with this statement. Don't even bother purchasing a stage 2 cam until you have had some portwork done. The head is the biggest choke point on a d17 IMO Also don't even worry about the intake manifold until you have done everything else.... kpro,stg 2 cam, portwork, race header, bored throttle body, built bottom end. after all that, then you will see some gains from a different intake mani.
I still would like to see what a fully built d17 is capable of NA.

 
Rep Power: 266

djmota was your head with or without P&P ? im curious because i thought i was without. i would definitely say that a P&P is a good investment with the cam but not to say there isnt a gain at all with just the cam. doing it piece by piece would definitely still be fun if you couldnt drop the money all at once. then you could still upgrade things as money allowed.

back to the subject of if you would see 150 whp from your 1500 dollars then i would definately say no. also i would look at the Aem FIC VS emanage article that dezod wrote. definately made me not ever want the emanage.