Any one else notice the STS rules changes....
Thread Starter
Autocross Junky
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,211
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Rep Power: 380 










Any one else notice the STS rules changes....
In the latest issue of Fasttrack???
I'll cover the more interesting and Stupid new rules changes..
#1 (Stupid) Effective 1/1/2005, move all AWD vehicles to STX
Whats up with that? AWD has proven its self to be as much a liability as it is a bonus (Due to AWD cars being substantually heavyer then there comperable 2wd cars).
#2 (Interesting) "Original Equipemnt ABS braking systems may be electically disable, but not removed or altered in any other way."
Does this mean that its legal to pull the fuses on our ABS system?? Thats effectively disabling it electrically....
#3 (Interesting) The Pirelli P Zero Corsa has the honor of being the first tire explicitly excluded from STS... "Per STAC recommendation, the Pirelli P Zero Corsa is added to the ST tire exclusion List."
I all ways thought it was funny that only one size of the P Zero Corsa was listed as having a tread wear of 140 (the 215/45-17 ) where all the others are listed as having a tread wear of 60....
#4 (Interesting) On arm-and-strut (MacPhearson/Chapman) Suspensions, the lower arms may be modified/replaced or other methods of camber adjustment as allowed by paragraphs 14.8 B.,C.,or D may be used, but not both..
Does this mean we can use those Type R aluminum lower control arms??? Even if they are not for adjusting camber??
I'll cover the more interesting and Stupid new rules changes..
#1 (Stupid) Effective 1/1/2005, move all AWD vehicles to STX
Whats up with that? AWD has proven its self to be as much a liability as it is a bonus (Due to AWD cars being substantually heavyer then there comperable 2wd cars).
#2 (Interesting) "Original Equipemnt ABS braking systems may be electically disable, but not removed or altered in any other way."
Does this mean that its legal to pull the fuses on our ABS system?? Thats effectively disabling it electrically....
#3 (Interesting) The Pirelli P Zero Corsa has the honor of being the first tire explicitly excluded from STS... "Per STAC recommendation, the Pirelli P Zero Corsa is added to the ST tire exclusion List."
I all ways thought it was funny that only one size of the P Zero Corsa was listed as having a tread wear of 140 (the 215/45-17 ) where all the others are listed as having a tread wear of 60....
#4 (Interesting) On arm-and-strut (MacPhearson/Chapman) Suspensions, the lower arms may be modified/replaced or other methods of camber adjustment as allowed by paragraphs 14.8 B.,C.,or D may be used, but not both..
Does this mean we can use those Type R aluminum lower control arms??? Even if they are not for adjusting camber??
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,151
Likes: 3
From: Washington DC
Rep Power: 423 










# 2 sounds to me like we can kill the ABS with the fuse.
# 4 sounds like ITR control arms are now legal... but do they fit?
I thought there was something different about them because of the brembos.
# 4 sounds like ITR control arms are now legal... but do they fit?
I thought there was something different about them because of the brembos.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,857
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
Rep Power: 412 










Hmm. So should I pull the fuse on the next race? What fuse is it?
ITR aluminum control arm bars should fit. You mean the ones you can get at Kingmotorsports? The front ones? Those have to weigh at least half of what the stock ones do.
ITR aluminum control arm bars should fit. You mean the ones you can get at Kingmotorsports? The front ones? Those have to weigh at least half of what the stock ones do.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,056
Likes: 1
Rep Power: 343 


Originally Posted by robbclark1
Hmm. So should I pull the fuse on the next race? What fuse is it?
ITR aluminum control arm bars should fit. You mean the ones you can get at Kingmotorsports? The front ones? Those have to weigh at least half of what the stock ones do.
ITR aluminum control arm bars should fit. You mean the ones you can get at Kingmotorsports? The front ones? Those have to weigh at least half of what the stock ones do.
#1 I believe they are trying to get awd vehicles in their own class rather than race 2wd cars.
#2 Sounds legal to me to pull the fuse. I think its under the hood like hawk said. I think they mean they dont want us to upgrade/modify the existing abs system for improved braking.
#4 Arn't the lower control arms slightly larger than ours? They may have to be slightly modified, I dont think they will bolt straight up.
#2 Sounds legal to me to pull the fuse. I think its under the hood like hawk said. I think they mean they dont want us to upgrade/modify the existing abs system for improved braking.
#4 Arn't the lower control arms slightly larger than ours? They may have to be slightly modified, I dont think they will bolt straight up.
Thread Starter
Autocross Junky
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,211
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Rep Power: 380 










The thing with #1 is that AWD has never dominated in STS, a little 89 SI has... so why move a car (2.5 RS) that does pretty good but is not an overdog, in to STX, where it will have no chance in Hell to ever beat the WRX's and M3s ect that play in STX? Its like the board is reacting to a preceved traction advantage, rather then the cars actual performance.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,857
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
Rep Power: 412 










I think they are trying to make a lot of adjustments in the ST classes. There can be a lot of mismatches, especially in STS. An modified ITR races in the same class as our modified civic. With the implementation of STU and these rule changes, I think they are trying to parse out the ST classes, but I don't know if theya re doing all that great of a job at it just yet.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,151
Likes: 3
From: Washington DC
Rep Power: 423 










^^^ ITRs run STX because of the LSD.
The DC5 does run STS because of no LSD, and you're looking at a 70+ HP disadvantage in STS trim, but theres nothing we can do about it but out drive them.
If it can be done with 108 HP, it can be done with 130.
The DC5 does run STS because of no LSD, and you're looking at a 70+ HP disadvantage in STS trim, but theres nothing we can do about it but out drive them.
If it can be done with 108 HP, it can be done with 130.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,857
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
Rep Power: 412 










Originally Posted by Boilermaker1
^^^ ITRs run STX because of the LSD.
The DC5 does run STS because of no LSD, and you're looking at a 70+ HP disadvantage in STS trim, but theres nothing we can do about it but out drive them.
If it can be done with 108 HP, it can be done with 130.
The DC5 does run STS because of no LSD, and you're looking at a 70+ HP disadvantage in STS trim, but theres nothing we can do about it but out drive them.
If it can be done with 108 HP, it can be done with 130.
108 hp with about 300 less pounds. Sure it can be done, but say Zzyzx takes out a DC5 and a Civic, equally suspension prepared, the DC5 will perform better and pull a better time and will do it consistently.
Thread Starter
Autocross Junky
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,211
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Rep Power: 380 










Remember that the DC5 weighs a good bit more then our civics. Thats pretty much our only advantage. (Its some where around 300 LBS.) so Bascally an EM2 Vs a DC5, the DC5 has the advantage in power But... an RSX vs a lil' 89 Si.... all that extra HP dont mean squat when your car weights 600 LBS More then the other guy (89s weigh about 2000-2100 lbs)
I guess the quesion is, would you rather run a 7th gen civic in STS or an RSX? well obviously the RSX would be the better of the two... But nationally nither is going to do all that well.
I guess the quesion is, would you rather run a 7th gen civic in STS or an RSX? well obviously the RSX would be the better of the two... But nationally nither is going to do all that well.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 10,857
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
Rep Power: 412 










Autocrossing neither will do well, however the RSX's seem to be doing fairly well on road courses and judging by Justin's runs at the track, the chassis really like road courses.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,151
Likes: 3
From: Washington DC
Rep Power: 423 










Well, its substantially stiffer than the older cars. With a double wishbone set up, I think the newer cars would just pound the older ones into dust, but they had to go and change it.
Thread Starter
Autocross Junky
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,211
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Rep Power: 380 










^^ that would be why SPoon Racing stoped running the RSX in favor of the TSX (Which has Double wishbone suspension all the way around...)
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,056
Likes: 1
Rep Power: 343 


Originally Posted by Zzyzx
^^ that would be why SPoon Racing stoped running the RSX in favor of the TSX (Which has Double wishbone suspension all the way around...)
*starts looking to see how hard it would be to do a conversion*
Thread Starter
Autocross Junky
Hey! Look At Me!! I'm a Supporting Member!!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 7,211
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Rep Power: 380 










Its a completely Different chassis, and what do you have to worry about? you've got the K20 with out all the bloat of a RSX.....
Heres an excert from the article explaning why spoon is no longer running DC5s...
Heres an excert from the article explaning why spoon is no longer running DC5s...
... "Just a few interesting annecdotes from my interview on this car. I specifically asked Ichishima why he chose to field the CL7 Accord Euro-R instead of more 'logical choices' (to us enthusiasts, that is) like the DC5 Integra Type-R or the EP3 Civic Type-R. After all, those who have been following the BEST MOTORing/HOT VERSION videos knows that stock-to-stock, the DC5 and the EP3 are very much faster than the CL7 (Accord Euro-R) on the race-track. However, Ichishima's answer took me by surprise. He doesn't think the DC5 is as good a base as the CL7. In fact, he admits to be unimpressed with the DC5 as a base for modifications. 'It's based on a van', he says, 'it's a Stream Coupe !'. Similarly the EP3 to him is a 'Stream hot-hatch'. The CL7 Accord Euro-R to him is the best all-round current generation Type-R model made by Honda.
Controversial though Ichishima's statements are, let us take a closer look at the reasons. In many ways the design profile for the Stream was the base for the DC5. The K20A engine first appeared in the Stream before being tuned for the DC5. Furthermore the biggest discussion point amongst enthusiasts was Honda's decision to discard the double wishbone suspension for the front, replacing it with the MacPershon strut design. However the DC5 was specifically designed from scatch (using the same base as the Stream though) to be an all-out FF performance coupe. Many of the DC5's features are things we enthusiasts holds important : Recaros, 2-pot Brembo calipers, Chrome-Moly flywheel, etc. But Ichishima's response to these is that he feels some of us may have been too enticed by these features. He confess to a fondness for the old DC2 Integra Type-R and that the B-series engine, especially the B18C SpecR is to him still one of the all-time best engines Honda has ever made.
Now, before we go into a debate over Ichishima's statements above, I need to point out the 'difference in culture' factor that I highlighted in my main article. Again here is where I feel a difference in interpretation in language is at play. I had a rather long discussion with Ichishima and my personal opinion is that Ichishima does not mean to say that either the DC5 or the EP3 are bad cars. Indeed I do believe he thinks highly of these models - he parks a 'Spoon DC5' right in front of his Type-One head office. I think what he actually means is that the CL7 has a higher potential for modifications - he was probably able to extract a higher performance level from it than either the DC5 or the EP3 for professional level racing. Indeed in recent HOT VERSION videos, both the DC5 and EP3 were not able to take on a modified Toyota MR-S that had an engine swap from the Celica. And the MR-S took the DC5 and the EP3 due to its much better handling. I think this is not due to the FF configuration rather more that the MacPershon strut may have limitations for all-out modifications for performance. By comparison, the CL7 Accord Euro-R retains the more desirable double wishbone suspensions for both front and rear. Stock-to-stock, the CL7 loses to the DC5 & EP3 mainly due to its inferior power-to-weight ratio (being around 200kg heavier) but of course for competitive endurance racing where cars are stripped bare and minimum weights are enforced, this biggest archilles heel of the CL7 Accord Euro-R is no longer of any significance."
Controversial though Ichishima's statements are, let us take a closer look at the reasons. In many ways the design profile for the Stream was the base for the DC5. The K20A engine first appeared in the Stream before being tuned for the DC5. Furthermore the biggest discussion point amongst enthusiasts was Honda's decision to discard the double wishbone suspension for the front, replacing it with the MacPershon strut design. However the DC5 was specifically designed from scatch (using the same base as the Stream though) to be an all-out FF performance coupe. Many of the DC5's features are things we enthusiasts holds important : Recaros, 2-pot Brembo calipers, Chrome-Moly flywheel, etc. But Ichishima's response to these is that he feels some of us may have been too enticed by these features. He confess to a fondness for the old DC2 Integra Type-R and that the B-series engine, especially the B18C SpecR is to him still one of the all-time best engines Honda has ever made.
Now, before we go into a debate over Ichishima's statements above, I need to point out the 'difference in culture' factor that I highlighted in my main article. Again here is where I feel a difference in interpretation in language is at play. I had a rather long discussion with Ichishima and my personal opinion is that Ichishima does not mean to say that either the DC5 or the EP3 are bad cars. Indeed I do believe he thinks highly of these models - he parks a 'Spoon DC5' right in front of his Type-One head office. I think what he actually means is that the CL7 has a higher potential for modifications - he was probably able to extract a higher performance level from it than either the DC5 or the EP3 for professional level racing. Indeed in recent HOT VERSION videos, both the DC5 and EP3 were not able to take on a modified Toyota MR-S that had an engine swap from the Celica. And the MR-S took the DC5 and the EP3 due to its much better handling. I think this is not due to the FF configuration rather more that the MacPershon strut may have limitations for all-out modifications for performance. By comparison, the CL7 Accord Euro-R retains the more desirable double wishbone suspensions for both front and rear. Stock-to-stock, the CL7 loses to the DC5 & EP3 mainly due to its inferior power-to-weight ratio (being around 200kg heavier) but of course for competitive endurance racing where cars are stripped bare and minimum weights are enforced, this biggest archilles heel of the CL7 Accord Euro-R is no longer of any significance."
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,056
Likes: 1
Rep Power: 343 


Originally Posted by Zzyzx
Its a completely Different chassis, and what do you have to worry about? you've got the K20 with out all the bloat of a RSX.....
Heres an excert from the article explaning why spoon is no longer running DC5s...
Heres an excert from the article explaning why spoon is no longer running DC5s...
By comparison, the CL7 Accord Euro-R retains the more desirable double wishbone suspensions for both front and rear.
It would be that much better of a car (exspecially in the handeling department) with the double wish bones up front. Think the power to weight ratio of a lightened RSX with the handeling possibilitys of a TSX...
There is a guy that auto crosses with a TSX, i'm gonna have to start prying around in that thing
Thread
Thread Starter
Honda Civic Forum
Replies
Last Post
jzhartman
Mechanical Problems/Vehicle Issues and Fix-it Forum
22
Jul 23, 2015 10:42 PM
mistermenphis22
Mechanical Problems/Vehicle Issues and Fix-it Forum
13
Jul 13, 2015 04:43 PM
1khilari
6th Generation Civic 1996 - 2000
12
Jul 9, 2015 08:12 PM
CivicsClass101
1st - 5th Generation Civic 1973 - 1995
0
Jul 9, 2015 11:14 AM




