jaqdadi

I'm posting this because I looked and didn't see any posts that sounded close, immobilizer info found in other posts is seriously helpful though.


My 26 year old nieces boyfriend is an idiot, numbbrained, well I could go on, but it would not fix the problem. About two weeks ago, they had another fight. He got angry because she wouldn't let him have the key to the car anymore. About a week before, he took the car drunk, picked up his kids and went for an asshat joyride, in Concord, NH. Snow all over the place and a stupid, drunken driver, take a guess! Yep, he did a couple of spinouts. On both he damaged the right front fender and the right rear fender and taillight. A car that was worth $3500 1 1\2 years ago has been reduced to junkyard price by this guy. Ok, after this last incident, she had enough and threw him out. That's when good old uncle Bobby gets the call to come fix what the idiot screwed up, I live 2 hrs away in RI!


Apparently, he was so angry she wouldn't give him the key and didn't lock the damn doors first, he decided to take a screwdriver to the ignition, with hopes of effectively stealing the car. He didn't read the manual and has no technical ability at all, he had no idea there was a system called the immobilizer, that would stop him. Still, he persisted, broke the immobilizer ring in half and screwed up the keyway.


The next day when he sobered up. He attempted to fix it, a guy who doesn't even know the difference between red + and black -! First, he took the immobilizer and tried superglueing the ring back together and couldn't understand why it didn't work, this was after replacing the ignition cylinder, thereby having now different keys, which even if the immobilizer was ok, wouldn't work. After he put it all back together and it didn't work, he found out about the immobilizer and how now he had to have the new keys flashed to the ECU and immobilizer (he went to a junkyard for the parts, they sold him the whole steering column with the ignition intact, with keys).


When the locksmith came out to do the reprogramming, the first thing he noticed was the superglued immobilizer and told him that he needed to replace that first. He had the one from the junkyard steering column, so he swapped it out. Then the locksmith attempted reprogramming. It took, the key light went out, however, when he turned the key off (0 position) and then tried to start the car, the light was back on and the car wouldn't start. They did this several times over several visits while this idiot got a friend with a clue and made sure all the connections were solid and everything should be working. Still, you can reprogram everything, but as soon as you turn the key off and try to start it, bang, light comes on and you can hear the click of the relay.


Now, this is the point at which I enter the frey. He's out of the picture, gone. I get there and take a look, everything looks good, all connections are solid, (Did I mention my AS in electronics and 25+ years as a computer\electronics tech\engineer?). So I call the locksmith and ask him to come back one more time, he only charged them $85 so far and had been there several times with the same result. I told him I certainly didn't expect him to come back for nothing as clearly this wasn't his fault, he agreed to come back and give it a quick shot for $70, so I had him come back and do it. I watched everything, he was in his late 40's and has over 20 years experience and had been doing these reprogramming calls since the inception of chipped keys. Everything took, then we turned the key off and back on, bang, the key light comes on and you can hear that relay click, the light stays on and the engine just turns and turns, no start! He says he's never seen that happen before and is stumped by what might be causing it.


My sister works for a Honda dealer (2+ hrs from where the car is) and I gave her the immobilizer unit, with another part that fits into it with two leads coming off it that terminate in a 2 prong plug, to see if they can tell whether or not it's defective. The original unit didn't have this extra piece on it. I checked the numbers on the immobilizers, they all are identical to the original, except for the serial #. This extra piece has no markings on it, I wish I took a pic before sending it to my sisters dealer. There is no difference in the replacement parts except this extra piece that fits into the immobilizer, then it wraps around the ignition.


Now, one more thing that has come up because of reading some of these posts. I'm not an "official" car mechanic, although I am 52 yrs old, 53 in about 3 weeks, lol. I come from old school mechanics. A lot of the newer electronics are foreign to me, even though I understand how they work after looking into them, I don't have experience in that area, except for the usual radio\entertainment electronics, OBDII diags and standard car stuff. I am a GM man, I have a jimmy and that's where my main knowledge of cars lies, with 4wd trucks, suv's and such. I have never had to deal with this immobilizer before. The car has been jump started or actually, attempted. I understand that's not a good thing to do with these cars and may have something to do with this, although I can't see what.


What would cause the immobilizer, key and ECU to take the programming and as soon as you turn the key off, reject it?


What is that extra piece that wasn't on the original immobilizer and could that have something to do with the programming or lack of it?


Did anyone actually read everything I posted, lol???

mikey1

x 100


x 100

jaqdadi

Yea, put one or two more zero's in there and maybe you'll come close, lol.


The service manager at the dealer my sister and mother works for will give me a brake code for Friday when I go back up there. Once I know the car is running, nothing else wrong with it, there shouldn't be, then I can try something like one of the bypassing methods i've read about. I don't want to try anything, till I see it running first. I have read about a couple ways to bypass the immobilizer, I won't post any of those methods here. If anyone can shed some light on doing something like that, please send me a message about it, don't post it here. I am not into doing anything illegal or posting any info that may help someone do anything illegal. This car is legally owned by my neice.


Money is an issue, the cost thus far is starting to go into $300+ range, that's including my gas for driving there. So that's the only reason i'd do any type of bypassing. I was knocked out of work in 2012 due to health issues and can't afford to spend the money on the dealer, I could squeeze it out if it's absolutely necessary, i'll be going back to work in a couple weeks, after the Doc sees me and signs off on it, but right now she just needs the car running, later we can budget a more permanent fix. The car is worth fixing, the body damage is relatively minor and the interior just needs a supreme cleaning. The engine and tranny run very good, at least they did before the idiot screwed up the ignition. So once I see it running, then doing anything else won't be an issue.


I've attached 3 pics. One is the original immobilizer (you can see the hack job trying to glue the ring back on), the other immobilizer pic is the replacement, they have all the same numbers. The last pic is a piece that came with the replacement, that wasn't on the original. Can anyone tell me what that is and why it wasn't on the original and could this piece interfere with reprogramming?

jaqdadi

One more thing that may be a serious part of this issue. The head mechanic at the dealer said that he's never heard of anyone or place, other than a Honda dealer, that can reprogram these units. The locksmith that came out, had a machine that appeared to do the programming, plugged it into the OBDII connector, but he never entered a vin. The mechanic said that is key (no pun intended), no matter how your doing it, if you don't tell the ECU the vin, it won't work. Is this true or is he handing me the company line? I understand a dealer's mechanic, regardless of the relationship, isn't going to let you know these things can be done outside of their shop, probably has to sign his life away if he does. The locksmith guy said he had done many of these without fail. I didn't ask him if he ever had to do one that had been messed with so deeply. Original ECU, replacement immobilizer and original keychip. The mechanic said the vin is necessary to program it, if you don't enter it, nothing will happen. However, the locksmith's machine said it did it, it just didn't stick. So...

ezone

I'm trying.

My first thought was to get the cops involved, then get insurance involved. This is vandalism at the very least. IDK if that's what you want to do though.


I dunno, not a familiar scenario to me.

Here's my main thoughts:

A) Could this car have a remote start installed??? If so then there's either a 3rd key under the dash that is now no longer programmed to the car, or there's an electronic box that simulated a working key that is no longer programmed to the car.

Have you looked under the dash for non-original wiring and mysterious electronic boxes?



B) Have you checked both fuse boxes for any blown fuses?

This thing?




This is supposed to be installed alongside the immobi unit.. This unit contains the key reminder beeper switch and controls the interlock solenoid on the bottom of the steering column lock. Maybe more. It IS supposed to be installed and there should be a plug for it right near the immobi plug.

C) Is it missing from your junkyard ignition? Install it and see if that changes anything.




Does the locksmiths' scanner have the ability to self test the immobilizer system, to see if it "thinks" it is working properly or not?

I can't tell you anything about bypassing the immobilizer. Not my area.
If you do get it running with the brake code, can you just drive it to the dealer your family works at? Employee discount labor rates there, or give a tech some cash to do it after work?
That's ok, there's a lot going on in the world of cars that he probably hasn't been exposed to. I know I don't get to see hardly anything but factory supported equipment at the dealer, but I know there's a lot more than that out there.

Dealer level tooling is available to any shop that is willing to pay the price to get it.
There really are some independent shops that actually spend the money it takes to play with the big boys (meaning dealer level equipment). Those types of shops might be few and far between though.

There are also some aftermarket tooling sources for doing the work (scanner stuff). Most independent shops choose this level equipment and it's usually adequate for a good part of their normal service needs. My understanding is most of these don't give access to the immobilizer though. Maybe there are some that do, but most don't.

You won't get dealer level access to all systems in any legitimate aftermarket scanner though. Ain't gonna happen.

Someone posted here recently about finding "cloned" equipment (HDM unit?) from China on ebay and programmed his own keys for about the cost of one or two dealer service visits IIRC.

There are scan tools for locksmiths too, but from what I've seen they tend to stick to key and immobilizer stuff only.

I read the $$$$. scanner from Harbor Freight can program Hondas keys too. Go figure. (clicky link)


When stuck using only the dealer level scanner, this may seem true.

Much of what we have to do on Hondas scanner (HDS) regarding the immobilizer programming is security related and all about getting through the software before the programming actually takes place.

Much of it really has nothing to do with the car itself, only the scanner.

Aftermarket tooling apparently doesn't have to follow the same rules.

I'm pretty sure the Harbor Freight scanner unit doesn't care about my dealer logins or the immobilizer access codes from Honda. It apparently will program the keys though.


HTH

jaqdadi

Lol!!!

They already are for a different reason. They showed up right after I left Tuesday night. Apparently this piece of crap got into and accident with his pickup truck last October. The story he gave my niece was, he was hit from behind by a hit and run driver and spunout into some trees, his truck was totaled because of it. That's why he was using her car over the winter. Actually, he hit someone and ran, according to the NH State Police. The truck wasn't totalled, it was hot because he did a hit and run, they got the plate number. He hit a car with a woman and her daughter in it and took off. The mother will never leave the hospital, ever! My niece called me crying and heartbroken over it, she had no idea, she wasn't with him. She doesn't drink that often, you can count on one hand the amount of times she had alcohol last year.


A)No remote start. I know what to look for and how they work. It was actually one of my first questions at the beginning of this episode.




B)
I assumed because the immobilizer was kicking in and the dash lights were behaving properly, that any fuses associated with the ECU were good. I did look at them and didn't see anything obvious, it was actually the first thing I did when I showed up. I know, never assume! I'll take a closer look tomorrow. I found out when I talked to the locksmith about an hr ago, this idiot cut the wires between the ignition and the plugs! Then he stripped the ends intending to splice them, instead of using the damn plugs, that's how dumb this idiot is! When the locksmith showed up the first time, he saw the wires hanging, with the ends stripped, and clumped together, the bare wires touching each other! The damn fool probably fried the ECU and that's why the programming isn't working!

Quote:

This thing?




This is supposed to be installed alongside the immobi unit.. This unit contains the key reminder beeper switch and controls the interlock solenoid

Quote:

on the bottom of the steering column lock. Maybe more. It IS supposed to be installed and there should be a plug for it right near the immobi plug.

C) Is it missing from your junkyard ignition? Install it and see if that changes anything.




Does the locksmiths' scanner have the ability to self test the immobilizer system, to see if it "thinks" it is working properly or not?

Yes, that thing, lol!


C)It came with the junkyard column, it wasn't on the original. I only have one of those in the pile, two immobilizers. The locksmith said he told him that it wasn't on the original. It was installed when I showed up, but not plugged in. I plugged it in before tried reprogramming. That's why I was wondering how critical it is. If it might be an issue.


According to him it does. He showed me what he was doing as he did it. He showed me how he could see the ECU and tell if the immobilizer and ECU were talking to each other, no problems found on that part of this issue.

Quote:

If you do get it running with the brake code, can you just drive it to the dealer your family works at? Employee discount labor rates there, or give a tech some cash to do it after work?

My sister texted me the code a couple hrs ago. The car is actually about 150 miles from that dealer. If we are going to do that, we'll drive it there. She'll bring her kids and come for a visit, she needs a break. However, the locksmith guy is actually being super good about this. If the brake code works, then that should mean the programming should work. If the brake code doesn't work, then the ECU is probably fried and needs to be replaced. He can't reprogram a replacement ECU, that does need a dealer. We are trying to avoid that expense, obviously, but if the ECU is fried, then it has to be done.


I understand how the dealers work. They can't tell you anything outside of Hondas approval, of course, they can't tell you any shortcuts to bypass the immobilizer. They also have to maintain that only dealers can do this. I understand the reasons and how the process works. The mechanic probably knows every way to bypass the immobilizer, but isn't going to disclose that he knows or confirm it can be done. As long as the ECU isn't fried, then we are looking at a defective immobilizer, that extra piece interfering with the programming, a loose wire I haven't located or a fuse. Anything but a blown ECU should be relatively easy to figure out.


Thanks for taking so much time on this. I found out stuff today I didn't know before and may point to why this is happening. I'll be there in the morning and will have some answers after that.


On a side note. This response took me 2 hrs to complete, lol! I'm working off a 5 yr old Vaio laptop. I typed this whole conversation in at least 3 times. Every time till now, the machine lost connection with the forum and I had to start over. This last time I opened up notepad and saved the conversation periodically so I wouldn't have to retype everything again. Wouldn't you know, after I started saving it, it didn't crash again, lol!!!

ezone

Quote:

They already are for a different reason.

Time for a good ol shotgun cleaning party.

Quote:

this idiot cut the wires between the ignition and the plugs! Then he stripped the ends intending to splice them, instead of using the damn plugs, that's how dumb this idiot is! When the locksmith showed up the first time, he saw the wires hanging, with the ends stripped, and clumped together, the bare wires touching each other! The damn fool probably fried the ECU and that's why the programming isn't working!

All I can do is cringe at the thought.

Make sure all the wires got back to their correct locations.

Quote:

If the brake code works, then that should mean the programming should work. If the brake code doesn't work, then the ECU is probably fried and needs to be replaced. He can't reprogram a replacement ECU, that does need a dealer. We are trying to avoid that expense, obviously, but if the ECU is fried, then it has to be done.

Would be nice to have a compatible test car available along with being able to program as needed, that way you can swap control units as needed until it gets figured out. Guessing at control units can get expensive in a hurry.

("Substitute a known good unit") !!! We at the dealer rarely ever have that luxury, and damn sure the owner of the identical car would not want their baby used as a guinea pig!

Quote:

The mechanic probably knows every way to bypass the immobilizer, but isn't going to disclose that he knows or confirm it can be done.

I really don't know how to bypass the immobilizer either. So far I haven't needed to find out.

If I didn't read and participate in a lot of internet forums, I wouldn't have a clue about a lot of other stuff either...and there's plenty I don't know. There's a lot of stuff out there I'll never see in a dealer shop environment.




My main laptops are from 2008 and 2009 LOL

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

oh. god. jaqdadi, meet your long lost brother ezone...

somehow i have the feeling you two are similar... LOL!

jaqdadi

Lol!!!

Ok, the latest. Came up to NH today armed with a proper brake code. The key light comes on after the first digit and stays on like it's supposed to, even with the key off. After entering the last digit and turning the key off, the light goes out. Turn the key to start it and it goes back as if I did nothing, light comes on for a couple secs then starts blinking, ggggrrrrrrrrrr!!!!

I took the dash apart and went over every connector to the ecu, looks good. I checked the ecu fuse, npf. I removed it and plugged it back in, no change, still broken. I'm gonna try unplugging the battery. I plugged in my OBDII scanner and no codes. If the scanner can read the ecu, doesn't that mean it's ok???

ezone

Well that sucks donkey ba!!s.

No, not at all.

If you shoot it with a .22 it might not produce any fault codes either, but that could still render it inoperable....right? LOL




Wiring diagram, verify the chopped wiring is correctly repaired,
you already got a (assumed good) immobilizer CU......

So from these posts I think I can follow the factory trouble tree here, let me know if I got any answers wrong:

Step 1 turn ignition on with a programmed key.
Did immobi indicator come on? (green key symbol)
(yes)
Did immobi indicator come on for 2 seconds and go off?
(no)
Did immobi indicator come on and blink?
(yes)
Turn ignition off and check
Immobi CU wire #1 brown/yellow should have continuity to ground.
Does it?
(yes?) Substitute known good Immobi C.U. OR substitute known good PCM.
(no) repair open in wire or repair ground G101 (at the thermostat housing on the engine)



Can you get the PCM from the car that donated the ignition and immobilizer?
Was the car identical?
But .....Now that the immobi system has been programmed by the locksmith I'm not sure it would still work with the original PCM --Never tried it myself, but it's a thought.

AND hey, a weak battery might still be able to crank the engine but not have enough voltage to keep the computers running at the same time. Try a jump start?

jaqdadi

Yea, I went over the wiring, that's the first thing I did after finding out he cut the wires, it's all good.


The reason my niece called me was because it wasn't accepting reprogramming after replacing the broken immobi. It wouldn't accept programming the brake code either. The key light came on after entering the first digit and went out after entering the last digit. Then when I turned the key off and tried to start it, the light came on and started blinking away, never went out and, of course, it wouldn't start.


I have a guy up the road from me parting out an 03 Civic Hybrid/CVT transmission. Do you know if that ECU will work in an 02 Civic LX?

ezone

Hybrid: No. That car uses an entirely different engine family.

It's gonna have to be from a car with the same engine (NON-VTEC = LX and DX) and same transmission as yours.
My parts catalog only shows the computer as fitting 2002 but that's for factory parts.
A Hollander interchange guide might give a wider range of years as usable.

jaqdadi

Question: Will the ECU, keys and immobilizer from another civic that is being parted out, just work? Is there any other sub system the ECU looks at to make sure it's in the right car?

ezone

With the ignition lock assembly.
If you take them all as a matched set AND is from the correct and matching year/model/trans car, it should plug and play as a matched set.No.

Better get the VIN of the car you obtain the parts from too, you may need it later on. Key cut codes are linked to the VIN, and the brake code may be specific to the VIN too.

jaqdadi

Thanks ezone, I appreciate your help! That will make this a lot easier to deal with. The gas money running up to NH and back in my jimmy alone is worth doing it this way. Maybe I can get some of it back selling the stuff that was bought at the junkyard, maybe, lol!!!

jaqdadi

Ok!!! I went to several Pick'nPulls over the last week, to find the right computer (Make sure the airbags haven't been deployed when looking for a computer at a junkyard! The brake code won't work after the airbags have been deployed). I found an ECU with the exact model #'s I needed. The car was a drive-in, so the airbags were intact and the ECU had no codes or other issues when it came in. They had just received it on 3\26, so weather really hadn't had time to creep in. No keys though, that would have been real nice! I got the comp and immobi though.


I went to the car and installed the comp first. The brake code wouldn't work (Yes ezone, lol, I got a new code to match the VIN from the new ECU!). So I swapped out the immobi (the 4th one, there were 2 replacements and the original), entered the brake code and after entering the 5th digit I knew it would work, the key light stayed on and the car started immediately!!!


2 immobi's and the original ECU were killed because of an idiot without a clue!!! Over $300 was spent and about 4 days wasted.


The smile on my niece's face when the car started, priceless!!!

ezone

Glad its finally working out for you!

sophist

the reason you had so much trouble is because there is an induction coil along with the immobilizer, the induction code is an ask answer system that unless the coil in the key has a specific number of wraps it will not give the proper induction reading that your receiver there around the ignition is looking for