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Well guys i just went through about 500 webpages no joke, and got as much and learned as much as could on this subject. My brain is freakin numb from the info. I don't have the energy to regurgetate everything but one thing is for sure, when you get heavy into the mods your definitely gonna need a custom chip from what I can tell. When mustangs came out with this in I think 99 it took some big players to come up with a fix and even the ones that said they did really still had issues. Everyone was looking for a simple way to increase pressure like the old way FMU/fuel pressure regulator. Without any huge problems they were able to add bigger injectors. Although only half of this applies because of the difference in EMS. Pro-M came up with a an Electronic FMU in 2000 but I haven't really be able to find much more on this. I know that Nitrous Express to get more fuel tapped into the fuel rail with a valve and solenoid to get additional fuel. They were able to safely add a 150 shot (not on a civic) just by doing this. I'm thinking that when the valve opens the system would reconize less pressure and add additional fuel to the motor. That was just an educated guess so I'm not sure. You could definitley swap an RSX pump and injectors and then just need a chip to control everything. That means dyno time or atleast a data logger.

This makes sense right know but I'm sure in 5 minutes I'll think of something and a new problem. I've left a lot out if anyone has any questions let me know, I'll try to help.

Finally what do you guys think??

 
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One more thing when when Salleen started putting a Vortech on idetical cars with the same setup there was variations and had to dyno and tune each one individually, talk about time consuming. Try to forget the mustang aspect because we can still learn a lot from there trial and errors.


Greg

 
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Yep yep, new ECU, or at least a piggy-back unit is what we need. Although just upgrading to higher flow injectors and a higher flow fuel pump would work if you calculated everything perfectly so that you wouldn't be running rich or lean. Then again, the ECU has the fuel maps calibrated for a non-modified engine, so adding a turbo and just upgrading the injectors and pump will result in sometimes running lean or rich. I'm not sure if the ECU uses different amounts of fuel/air at different rpm's or not? It probably does. If so, then that would be off too.

So it's like this... Upgrade the fuel injectors and the fuel pump to higher flowing units. Now add more oxygen. Either turbo, supercharger, or nitrous. Just make sure to add enough to make the mixture stoich and not lean or rich. You'll need an air/fuel ratio guage. I think one could tun their own setup enough using this method. Then an ECU or a piggy-back unit would make life much easier. It would regulate things appropriately and you would get better performance, better mileage, and lower emissions.

Those are my thoughts. Whatcha think?

 
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Not too mention replace stock regulator. Ive been thinking alot about this, and been doing my homework, and I will post my ideas/conclusions/etc. up when I find the time (it will be extremely long!) If we are going to go FI, smartest move with the fuel would be to put a rising rate fuel pressure regulator on the car, then tune from there (not saying that is only fuel mod, mind you!)

 
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Grey that sounds right on the money. Someone just has to put it into practice. As the rpms increase definitely more fuel gets delivered to the engine. A returnless system has a base pressure of around 50 psi then there is a a regulator right after the fuel pump which the ECU controls. PerfectD3 with a returnless fuel system you can't use a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. Sorry don't know exactly why not but if you could that would solve the problem and really wouldn't have to worry about tuning so much. Maybe you've got another idea? A/F gauge were definitely gonna need and will be key and if cash permits an EGT sensor.

 
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Click Here

 
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Hum... I read it, but I don't quite understand. I'll re-read it again in a little while. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/IMG]

 
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ok. what do they do with the Celicas? Dont they have the same dumb fuel system?

 
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Celicas do have the same fuel system...Not sure what they do. I read that but couldn't find anything on it. I did find a site where guys were installing FMU with their cars that did have returnless fuel systems. The thing I didn't get and couldn't find info on was depending on the different mods they would write. FMU 4:1, FMU 6:1, FMU 8:1. I get the 8:1 being the ratio but it was like these units are preset. I don't know I'm read that guys post, gonna have to draw it out to understand.

 
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I went through the thread OGforce linked to. It makes sense in theory sort of. I just can't rap my head around that idea. I do know returnless systems take info from like three different sensors to determine the fuel given. Another problem is the regulator is built onto the pump itself. You definitely need a piggyback for our fuel systems, no question about it. Even if you did install a higher flow fuel pump the ECU would only take what it needs and just wouldn't give you anymore. If the regulator at the pump will only give you so much installing a second one closer to the motor won't work, it's not like you can suck the gas out of the tank because that would mean increased psi and the computer would just freak out. Keep thinking guys.

 
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What about that Hondata computer the 6th gen and earlier guys use, fully programmable? Would this solve the fuel problems of increasing the fuel under load.

 
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If you check out www.hondata.com then you'll see that they don't have an application for our 7th gen civics.

 
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I was going through the post on the Hks site regarding their turbo and they said the F-Con or the F-con S solved the fuel delivery problem I think as far as tuning is concerned. The only problem they had beyond this was the stock injectors and pump. Which is probably easily solved with RSX fuel componets. Does anyone now what the F-con is or does exactly?? Or their website.

 
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Its a Fuel Control device.

 
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Greg - Ya I know on a returnless fuel system you can't impliment a rising rate, but on a full circuit you can. That's what I am trying to figure out how to do.

 
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There shouldn't be a need for a rising rate regulater.

Get an AFC (like the APEXi V-AFC), a higher rate regulater, and bigger pump, and bigger injectors.

The AFC reads the MAP sensor. Then lies to the ECU about the reading. The ECU then adjusts the injector pulse width based on this. The problems you will run into is that....you may have to run a higher idle then normal (the ecu can only make the pulse width so small). At higher RPM's the ECU will make the pulse width of the injectors really long.

The only other option would be to fabricate a returning systems based upon 6th gen civic's, and then you would have to replace your ECU with one like AEM's EMS.

If you look at what it costs for a turbo kit ($3000 - $4000) compared to what it cost to build one with parts scavenged from ebay, and to replace the fuel system. You could build a complate fuel and turbo system, with AEM's EMS, for around that much.