FULL REVIEW ON D2 COILOVERS!(Updated 4.20.04)
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From: Washington DC
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Originally posted by VNlilMAN
I wonder if changing the caster helps out with the toe issue? example if positive camber gives you toe-in would positive caster give you toe-out, thus helping that out a bit?
I wonder if changing the caster helps out with the toe issue? example if positive camber gives you toe-in would positive caster give you toe-out, thus helping that out a bit?
^^^ Just remember Robbclark and Boilermaker, if you want to remain in STS The center clearance hole may not be modified.
Rule 17.8 Section C.
other wise, How many people here acutally race their car or even care how much camber/caster/toe they have. most will just have the car aligned with in factory specs and call it a day. The rest of us will just deal with the little problems because we want that last tenth on the track.
Rule 17.8 Section C.
other wise, How many people here acutally race their car or even care how much camber/caster/toe they have. most will just have the car aligned with in factory specs and call it a day. The rest of us will just deal with the little problems because we want that last tenth on the track.
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The Standard One
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From: City of Angels, California, US
Rep Power: 417 yeah but what i'm saying is...
Negative camber = toe-in
but would Positive CASTER = toe-out?
cause if its true, it would kinda help out with the whole toe issue since toe-in + toe-out = less change of toe
oh and just incase you missed, the reason I bring this up is because the D2 camber plates adjusts both CAMBER and CASTER since its not straight but diagonal
(ignore the red/blue line)
Negative camber = toe-in
but would Positive CASTER = toe-out?
cause if its true, it would kinda help out with the whole toe issue since toe-in + toe-out = less change of toe
oh and just incase you missed, the reason I bring this up is because the D2 camber plates adjusts both CAMBER and CASTER since its not straight but diagonal
(ignore the red/blue line)
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Washington DC
Rep Power: 424 Originally posted by VNlilMAN
yeah but what i'm saying is...
Negative camber = toe-in
but would Positive CASTER = toe-out?
cause if its true, it would kinda help out with the whole toe issue since toe-in + toe-out = less change of toe
oh and just incase you missed, the reason I bring this up is because the D2 camber plates adjusts both CAMBER and CASTER since its not straight but diagonal
(ignore the red/blue line)
yeah but what i'm saying is...
Negative camber = toe-in
but would Positive CASTER = toe-out?
cause if its true, it would kinda help out with the whole toe issue since toe-in + toe-out = less change of toe
oh and just incase you missed, the reason I bring this up is because the D2 camber plates adjusts both CAMBER and CASTER since its not straight but diagonal
(ignore the red/blue line)
lease: You're being fed bullshit, all you have to do is rotate the plate. No one designed it like that, it wasn't engineered to do that, its the simple principle of a bolt circle. You can position the slot any way you want as long as the 3 bolts fit in the uniformly spaced holes. Whoever is marketing these things needs to be slapped around by a couple engineers. A true camber/caster plate has a square in it so you can adjust one independently of the other... Subarus are fully camber and caster adjustable.Laying the strut back with more caster will make it worse since you're shrinking the angle in the plane horizontal to the ground between the firewall (where the steering box is) and the arm on the strut because you're moving it closer. That lengthens the tie rod even more, and pushes the toe in more. This is simple geometry.... the tie rod (the hypotenuse) cannot change length without adjustment. The other 2 sides, a and b therefore must change. a gets shorter, and since a^2+b^2=c^2. b MUST get longer. In other words, the distance between the the steering box and the strut steering arm INCREASES... thats TOE IN
Refer to the drawing I did. The angles are overexagerated, so you can see what I mean.
Last edited by Boilermaker1; Apr 27, 2004 at 07:55 PM.
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From: Gaithersburg, MD
Rep Power: 412 have you read the suspension FAQ? If not, please do. It is there to educated people. All cars come with stock camber adjusters but they only adjust within OEM specs. a camber kit is used to adjust the camber outside of OEM specs (ie when lowering, racing, etc)
Thread Starter
The Standard One
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From: City of Angels, California, US
Rep Power: 417 Boilermaker1, try rotating the plate, see if it fits.. it only fits one way... you'd have to drill into the plates and reposition the bolts in order to position the camer plate that way
(pardon my drawing, have very limited programs at work)
-OK so the yellow[box] parts shows negative CAMBER correctly but what about the green[box] that shows CASTER. It doesnt show it clearly...
-I drew out what effect CASTER might have on the toe.
:::red: tie rod
:::Blue: steering arm on strut
::urple: actual strut
-The left side is what an aligned toe looks like correct?
-The ride side however shows what might possibly happen when you change caster. Since the tie rod stays the same length it'll "shorten" the distance from the strut pulling the steering arm in, thus causing TOE-OUT
-Since Negative Camber causes TOE-IN wouldnt the TOE-OUT kinda cancel it out a bit?
(pardon my drawing, have very limited programs at work)
-OK so the yellow[box] parts shows negative CAMBER correctly but what about the green[box] that shows CASTER. It doesnt show it clearly...
-I drew out what effect CASTER might have on the toe.
:::red: tie rod
:::Blue: steering arm on strut
::
urple: actual strut-The left side is what an aligned toe looks like correct?
-The ride side however shows what might possibly happen when you change caster. Since the tie rod stays the same length it'll "shorten" the distance from the strut pulling the steering arm in, thus causing TOE-OUT
-Since Negative Camber causes TOE-IN wouldnt the TOE-OUT kinda cancel it out a bit?
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From: Washington DC
Rep Power: 424 The tie rod can't go past parallel to the firewall like that. You'd hit the firewall.
You need to rethink this through. Go back to what I said about the length of the tie rod not changing, the angle of the tie rod with respect to the firewall and what happens if you move the tie rod closer to the firewall. You will not be pulling the steering arm back in like you need to, the tie rod will just keep pushing it out.
You need to rethink this through. Go back to what I said about the length of the tie rod not changing, the angle of the tie rod with respect to the firewall and what happens if you move the tie rod closer to the firewall. You will not be pulling the steering arm back in like you need to, the tie rod will just keep pushing it out.
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From: Gaithersburg, MD
Rep Power: 412 Wait a sec. If you push the caster FOWARDS, you will be pulling on the tie rod end and angle the steering arm. Not that there is much room to go foward with it, but if you changed the caster fowards you will be forcing the tie rod to pull harder and the steering arm, making the TOE OUT. If you pushed the caster BACKWARDS, then the TOE will come IN. Refer to picture below. I think this is what vnlilman is getting to but it still woudn't be a 90 degree angle.
The circle is the shock and the the line coming off of it is the arm attached to the shock and the line off that is the arm attached to the steering.
The circle is the shock and the the line coming off of it is the arm attached to the shock and the line off that is the arm attached to the steering.
Last edited by robbclark1; Apr 28, 2004 at 12:54 PM.
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The Standard One
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Rep Power: 417 i know by looking at the pictures it would probably hit the firewall but they were just exagerations. hm.. i finally understand what you meant by the firewall but hmm now i wonder where EXACTLY the steering box is. I think it is fairly close to the firewall but maybe its sticking out enough to make a difference? i shall check when i get home
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From: nor Cal
Rep Power: 0 there is no steering box per say its a rack and pinon the rack is located inline with the tie rods honda designed the tie rods to move up and down they have to because of the way there mounted to the strut but they cant move on any other plane(front to back ). Boiler maker is sayin that if you draw a line through the center of the rack you will find that the tie rods move linear to this. Once you start to mess with caster and camber you now creat a pivot on the end of the tie rod because you cant move the tie rod its a fixed length(unless you adjust it) This causes things like toe out and in depending on which way you move the strut. Robbclark said it right. So is the only way to counter this change in toe to change your tie rod lengths?
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From: Gaithersburg, MD
Rep Power: 412 The tie rod end can be made longer and shorter, but only within certain specs. How else would they be able to fix the alignement? You can look in there and see that it is threaded and there is a bolt. You can change your toe by adjusting the tie rod or by changing the camber. Changing the tie rod would be the better and more accurate adjustment. If someone could make a more adjustable tie rod end (sorta like our rear camber kit) then that might be beneficial.
in the pic above, right behind the connector joint to the steering arm, you can see a nut behind it. That is the part that adjusts the toe.
in the pic above, right behind the connector joint to the steering arm, you can see a nut behind it. That is the part that adjusts the toe.
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The Standard One
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From: City of Angels, California, US
Rep Power: 417 Originally posted by 7gen03
honda designed the tie rods to move up and down they have to because of the way there mounted to the strut but they cant move on any other plane(front to back ).
honda designed the tie rods to move up and down they have to because of the way there mounted to the strut but they cant move on any other plane(front to back ).
robbclark1, adjusting the toe is easy enough.. you just have to loosen the bolt and turn. The hard part is setting it right without an alignment rack.
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Rep Power: 351 that bolt does not move, i dont belive it does. ive changed my tie rod b4 and it was a biach to get off.. i thought i had to loosen that bolt, but it's just there to help u hold the end bolt of the tie rod so its not bouncing all over the place. but like i said im not to sure i didnt mess with it to much. i know u can adjust the tie rod end to make it longer just like ur takeing it off.
Last edited by dj02; Apr 28, 2004 at 01:51 PM.
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The Standard One
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Rep Power: 417 It DOES move.. the alignment shop forgot to tighten it the first time around and it was loose. I started to turn the tie rod and it turns, shortening/longating the tie rod. Then just tighten the bolt back up
If i take corners even at 25mph, i rub
just the way i like it, tuckin...
If i take corners even at 25mph, i rub
just the way i like it, tuckin... Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Gaithersburg, MD
Rep Power: 412 Originally posted by Boilermaker1
Give me a couple hours, I'll explain this with real pictures of the car when I get home. It'll make things easier.
Give me a couple hours, I'll explain this with real pictures of the car when I get home. It'll make things easier.
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From: Toronto
Rep Power: 0 hey, VNlilMAN, what setting are you on with your D2, i am lowered about 2inch all around, and the guy who install for me set mine shocks pretty hard, haha, he said he wanted me to feels the fun or cornering, but i am mostly a highway driver, should i set it to abit softer, thx.
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Rep Power: 351 ^^ yes if u want a softer ride set them to a softer setting. but on the fwy i would perfer hard cuzz its long plain road not as many bumps as on the st. for st driveing set to softer setting
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From: Washington DC
Rep Power: 424 Yeah, shocks up all the way is gonna make it rough.
I run my JICs at 3/15 all the way around on the street.
When I race, I turn them up to about 6 in the front and 11 in the rear, then play with it depending on what the car does.
Now, as far as the things with the tie rod go... you can't really see much in the pictures I took.... its dark and there's lots of crap in the way.
But, to answer a couple things... the tie rod will move in any direction, up and down, front to back in the car... the inner end is either a U joint or a Ball joint or some sort under the boot. It can move.
Now as far as the alignment goes... go out and look down the firewall in your car. Dead smack in the center is the steering system. Its a box with a shaft perpendicular to the firewall, the 2 tie rods are connected to it. The the rods are then connected to the struts, but you'll notice that the tie rods have to angle forward to connect to the steering arms. The tie rods, the firewall, and the plane of the steering arm make a triangle parallel to the ground. When the car is aligned, the steering arm should be 90 degrees to the fire wall.
Now lets start messing with things.
Any time you mess with anything, the tie rod length remains constant (until its realigned). We're going to call the length from the steering arm to the firewall a and from the steering box to the steering arm that is parallel to the firewall b.
First, we'll change JUST the camber. So with the plate, you'll push the top of the strut in. Because of where the steering arm is placed, the arm moves too. The problem is the tie rod doesn't change length. So... this turns the strut because the point where the steering arm is bolted to the tie rod cannot move. Since the steering arm is in the back, you get toe in when you add negative camber. Basically you're changing the b length at the top of the strut, but the steering arm can't follow.
Lets now mess with JUST caster. So we're going to move it forwards and backwards. Lets move it backwards for more positive caster. What this does is shorten a. The strut gets closer to the firewall. As this gets shorter, The tie rod once again cannot change its length, and geometry will create an oblique angle now where the right angle was... so the strut is forced to turn in. Toe in again.
Now compound them. Lets change A and B. So everything gets shorter, and the tie rod still remains its original length. 2 toe in situations, and now you're going to add them together.
I run my JICs at 3/15 all the way around on the street.
When I race, I turn them up to about 6 in the front and 11 in the rear, then play with it depending on what the car does.
Now, as far as the things with the tie rod go... you can't really see much in the pictures I took.... its dark and there's lots of crap in the way.
But, to answer a couple things... the tie rod will move in any direction, up and down, front to back in the car... the inner end is either a U joint or a Ball joint or some sort under the boot. It can move.
Now as far as the alignment goes... go out and look down the firewall in your car. Dead smack in the center is the steering system. Its a box with a shaft perpendicular to the firewall, the 2 tie rods are connected to it. The the rods are then connected to the struts, but you'll notice that the tie rods have to angle forward to connect to the steering arms. The tie rods, the firewall, and the plane of the steering arm make a triangle parallel to the ground. When the car is aligned, the steering arm should be 90 degrees to the fire wall.
Now lets start messing with things.
Any time you mess with anything, the tie rod length remains constant (until its realigned). We're going to call the length from the steering arm to the firewall a and from the steering box to the steering arm that is parallel to the firewall b.
First, we'll change JUST the camber. So with the plate, you'll push the top of the strut in. Because of where the steering arm is placed, the arm moves too. The problem is the tie rod doesn't change length. So... this turns the strut because the point where the steering arm is bolted to the tie rod cannot move. Since the steering arm is in the back, you get toe in when you add negative camber. Basically you're changing the b length at the top of the strut, but the steering arm can't follow.
Lets now mess with JUST caster. So we're going to move it forwards and backwards. Lets move it backwards for more positive caster. What this does is shorten a. The strut gets closer to the firewall. As this gets shorter, The tie rod once again cannot change its length, and geometry will create an oblique angle now where the right angle was... so the strut is forced to turn in. Toe in again.
Now compound them. Lets change A and B. So everything gets shorter, and the tie rod still remains its original length. 2 toe in situations, and now you're going to add them together.
same question as above. also, wondering how the set up is doing. thinkin' about droppin' my car w/ my tax check commin soon. got over a G and need to spend it on something!!! hah...let us know man. thanks
