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Hi there, I'm wondering what the pros and cons are of converting from a 4 to 5 lug setup are, I would like to track my car on a somewhat regular basis and I plan on making about 300kw at the wheels maximum but probably a fair bit less than that.
benefits: wheel selection is all, really... Unless you found a set of rims you're absolutely set on, it'd be more expensive than it's worth.
You're looking at running 300kw (402 whp)? What engine are you planning on running? I hope it's not your stock non-vtec 1.7L unless you plan on building the hell out of it and throwing 30psi boost at it and swapping on a D17A2 head and finding long since discontinued crower cams.
I did a small amount of research based on your other posts, and you're rocking a GLi with a D17Z1 engine. For anyone that's not able to find any info on the -Z1 (it's hard to find info..), it's much akin to the USDM DX/LX rated at 88kw (118hp). Same displacement, same compression ratio, similar power and torque.
benefits: wheel selection is all, really... Unless you found a set of rims you're absolutely set on, it'd be more expensive than it's worth.
You're looking at running 300kw (402 whp)? What engine are you planning on running? I hope it's not your stock non-vtec 1.7L unless you plan on building the hell out of it and throwing 30psi boost at it and swapping on a D17A2 head and finding long since discontinued crower cams.
I did a small amount of research based on your other posts, and you're rocking a GLi with a D17Z1 engine. For anyone that's not able to find any info on the -Z1 (it's hard to find info..), it's much akin to the USDM DX/LX rated at 88kw (118hp). Same displacement, same compression ratio, similar power and torque.
fair enough, anyways the rota grid 16s over here only come in 4x100 so thats alright, and with the engine it all comes down to cost and reliability, i think the best way to go would be to k24a2 swap it as there's an actual community around it whereas i could only find 1 low quality video of a turbo z1, and im sure it doesnt sound very good or have any understanding of the word "reliable" ahahaha
K swap is definitely where you wanna head if you're looking to make mad power. The K series engine is all but bulletproof. The D17 kinda sucks, not gonna lie. The only instance I found of a D17 making any sort of power was a former member here. He had a D17A1 (1.7L SOHC non-VTEC) with a D17A2 head (vtec head), stage 3 crower cam, 31 PSI boost, 8:1 or 8.5:1 compression ratio pistons, fully built engine, and making about 490whp (360kw) and about 380 ft-lb (515Nm) torque. He also went through 3 or 4 engines getting to that point.
Truth be told (and yeah, I know this is going off topic of the original thread. lol), reliability of a build is all in the tune. Get a **** tune, you're gonna spend money fixing it. Find someone that tunes it really well, you're golden, as long as you don't push it to its limits 90% of the time.
look into a franken k-swap. It's a k24 with a k20 head. I vaguely recall another member here, untuned, completely stock other than that swap, making some 218whp, then got it tuned and was able to squeeze it out to 230-ish whp. I don't recall the torque figures on the build, however. The main reason for that swap was room under the hood of the 7thgen civic. The K24 head was some 4cm taller than its k24 counterpart, and you would otherwise have to find a way to lower the mounting points to get it to fit. Hell, if you can get ahold of a K20A (Integra type R) engine, that would be a great starting point. If you're feeling frisky and can find a junkyard 2017-2021 FK8 Civic Type R 2.0L Turbo, and wanna get that K20C1 to work in the ES1 chassis, I would follow that build for damn sure. Starting point on that would be305hp (227kw) and 295ft-lb (400Nm) torque out of a 2.0L turbo pushing about 23psi boost
Last edited by xRiCeBoYx; Sep 24, 2021 at 11:02 PM.
K swap is definitely where you wanna head if you're looking to make mad power. The K series engine is all but bulletproof. The D17 kinda sucks, not gonna lie. The only instance I found of a D17 making any sort of power was a former member here. He had a D17A1 (1.7L SOHC non-VTEC) with a D17A2 head (vtec head), stage 3 crower cam, 31 PSI boost, 8:1 or 8.5:1 compression ratio pistons, fully built engine, and making about 4900whp (360kw) and about 380 ft-lb (515Nm) torque. He also went through 3 or 4 engines getting to that point.
Truth be told (and yeah, I know this is going off topic of the original thread. lol), reliability of a build is all in the tune. Get a **** tune, you're gonna spend money fixing it. Find someone that tunes it really well, you're golden, as long as you don't push it to its limits 90% of the time.
look into a franken k-swap. It's a k24 with a k20 head. I vaguely recall another member here, untuned, completely stock other than that swap, making some 218whp, then got it tuned and was able to squeeze it out to 230-ish whp. I don't recall the torque figures on the build, however. The main reason for that swap was room under the hood of the 7thgen civic. The K24 head was some 4cm taller than its k24 counterpart, and you would otherwise have to find a way to lower the mounting points to get it to fit. Hell, if you can get ahold of a K20A (Integra type R) engine, that would be a great starting point. If you're feeling frisky and can find a junkyard 2017-2021 FK8 Civic Type R 2.0L Turbo, and wanna get that K20C1 to work in the ES1 chassis, I would follow that build for damn sure. Starting point on that would be305hp (227kw) and 295ft-lb (400Nm) torque out of a 2.0L turbo pushing about 23psi boost
yeah definitely all worth considering, the only depressing part is that I cant engine swap until im on my full license which is at least 3 years here, and I could just do it anyway, but then if they check the engine i'd easily have a huge fine and no more license. with that being said, are there any performance minded mods that i can do to my z1 (bar turbo because id likely lose my license over that) that will carry over to the k24 swap? im sure the answer to that question is no but its worth the ask
Realistically, no. Completely different power plants.
I have a quick question for you. How mechanically savvy are you? If you're still learning (I see you're 18, I started on this forum at 18 with damn near zero knowledge of how to work on a car, and now I'm one of the go-to resources here), now would be a great time to dick around with the engine and learn how to work on an engine and see what does and doesn't work. The D17 is stupidly easy to learn how to do stuff on, and a lot of the theory translates over. Parts, not so much.
What you can do, that a lot wouldn't be affected is suspension work (save for things like.. the front knuckles since they interface with the driveshafts..). The 7thgen has a pretty good suspension, and you get the best bang for buck out of suspension work.
Realistically, no. Completely different power plants.
I have a quick question for you. How mechanically savvy are you? If you're still learning (I see you're 18, I started on this forum at 18 with damn near zero knowledge of how to work on a car, and now I'm one of the go-to resources here), now would be a great time to dick around with the engine and learn how to work on an engine and see what does and doesn't work. The D17 is stupidly easy to learn how to do stuff on, and a lot of the theory translates over. Parts, not so much.
What you can do, that a lot wouldn't be affected is suspension work (save for things like.. the front knuckles since they interface with the driveshafts..). The 7thgen has a pretty good suspension, and you get the best bang for buck out of suspension work.
yeah im pretty much in the same situation you were, i'm learning all this as i go really, and ive definitely heard that the d17s are easy to work on so thats a plus. i did start another thread asking about the best suspension for the 7th gen and the ones i've found are Silvers Neomax Black Edition Coilovers - Honda Civic ES 01-05 (Sedan) | Pro Speed Racing, what is your opinion on these? and do you have any recommendations for other coilover brands or parts that I should look into replacing? and i have just been thinking, i could probably get away with doing the k swap earlier if i keep it stock and the exhaust real quiet and dont dick about on the road, but thats thought for another day ahaha
yes. sneaky admin is sneaky. For the sake of transparency... My original post (which I edited, and subsequently edited my quote in chez's post), I had an extra 0 in there
Last edited by xRiCeBoYx; Sep 24, 2021 at 11:08 PM.
yeah im pretty much in the same situation you were, i'm learning all this as i go really, and ive definitely heard that the d17s are easy to work on so thats a plus. i did start another thread asking about the best suspension for the 7th gen and the ones i've found are Silvers Neomax Black Edition Coilovers - Honda Civic ES 01-05 (Sedan) | Pro Speed Racing, what is your opinion on these? and do you have any recommendations for other coilover brands or parts that I should look into replacing? and i have just been thinking, i could probably get away with doing the k swap earlier if i keep it stock and the exhaust real quiet and dont dick about on the road, but thats thought for another day ahaha
I've honestly never heard of them, but the price tag is on par with high end entry level and some mid-tier coilovers. Some reviews I found were mostly good, many putting them on par with Tein suspension products. If that's the case, you'll get better bang for buck going with Tein
edit: for what it's worth, I ran Tein super street coilovers on my 2002 civic for.. 12 years (Jan 2005 to November 2017) and only started to see signs of failure in the last few months of having that car. The upper pillowball bearing started to fail and clicked over big bumps. Price tag on those back in the day was $1500, got a deal for $1250. Their modernized replacements (street advance z) are like.. $800-900 (dunno what it'd be for you aussies)
Last edited by xRiCeBoYx; Sep 24, 2021 at 11:14 PM.
I've honestly never heard of them, but the price tag is on par with high end entry level and some mid-tier coilovers. Some reviews I found were mostly good, many putting them on par with Tein suspension products. If that's the case, you'll get better bang for buck going with Tein
fair enough, im struggling to find anywhere that sells tein for the es civic here in aus, so i might end up going with the silvers, so about 1200 usd is a good price to spend on trackable coilovers? also wondering if i'd be able to install my coils then drive 100-200 miles without an alignment while I wait for my wheels to come in?
edit: im not too bothered about a bit of extra tyre wear on the stock wheels and tyres as i wont really be using them after i get my new wheels
Last edited by Millsy088; Sep 24, 2021 at 11:17 PM.
Reason: extra info
What kinda track racing you gonna be doing? Actual track racing on a regular? Daily the car and track on random weekends? Autocross? @sdaidoji would be a good one to ask about suspension setups for AutoX.
As far as alignment goes... You're better off getting an alignment after you swap the coils in. A new wheel/tire setup isn't gonna change much. Depending on how far you wanna lower the car, get a camber kit, too (SPC is a good go-to brand). If you're looking at more than a 25mm drop, that is..
What kinda track racing you gonna be doing? Actual track racing on a regular? Daily the car and track on random weekends? Autocross? @sdaidoji would be a good one to ask about suspension setups for AutoX.
As far as alignment goes... You're better off getting an alignment after you swap the coils in. A new wheel/tire setup isn't gonna change much. Depending on how far you wanna lower the car, get a camber kit, too (SPC is a good go-to brand). If you're looking at more than a 25mm drop, that is..
yeah it would pretty much be daily driving and then then a track day every few weekends probably, and yeah i think im looking for about a 35mm drop although idk if that will be too low. and with the camber kit, should i get something that allows caster adjustment too or is that unnecessary?
from the link, the fronts already have top hat camber adjustment.
rear, it need the upper arm adjustable, not sure what is available in AUS. The rear camber is to reduce the camber, mind you. More front negative camber vs rear is best.
never heard of a caster adjustment
don't add front anti-roll bar. For autoX type very tight cornering, no need, me and another member completely removed ours. track need more, so keep stock bar until you run.
I am unsure if there are any autoX type in AUS (autoX is a name used by SCCA (last A is America) - google about it and see if there are anything like it in AUS - uses parking lots and made-up track using pilons)
from the link, the fronts already have top hat camber adjustment.
rear, it need the upper arm adjustable, not sure what is available in AUS. The rear camber is to reduce the camber, mind you. More front negative camber vs rear is best.
never heard of a caster adjustment
don't add front anti-roll bar. For autoX type very tight cornering, no need, me and another member completely removed ours. track need more, so keep stock bar until you run.
I am unsure if there are any autoX type in AUS (autoX is a name used by SCCA (last A is America) - google about it and see if there are anything like it in AUS - uses parking lots and made-up track using pilons)
hmmmm interesting, so the website says that it has front and rear adjustable camber but i agree that the images dont show that?? and you reckon wait until i go to a track day before upgrading the sway bar?
7th gen civics need an adjustable upper control arm, the top hats will not do it
rear is a multi-link trailing arm suspension type (which typically causes a higher negative camber gain throughout its course, making rear camber more problematic as you lower it).
have soem of it in my signature link
7th gen civics need an adjustable upper control arm, the top hats will not do it
rear is a multi-link trailing arm suspension type (which typically causes a higher negative camber gain throughout its course, making rear camber more problematic as you lower it).
have soem of it in my signature link
ahh fair enough, any brand you recommend for the adjustable control arm?
you might have been reading in the wrong places...
Moog is quite respectable suspension parts maker.
That is why there are so many fake parts around, they might be talking about the counterfeit parts.
oh okay thats good news then, so as far as im aware i need the silvers neomax coilovers and the moog adjustable rear upper control arms? and im guessing suspension.com would be a legitimate place to purchase moog parts from?
thats alright, are there any US sites you recommend? I'll just have to get it shipped to AUS as i cant really find anywhere that sells it over here. also i just bought a fairly comprehensive socket set but i got 12 point sockets, do i really need 6 point sockets for the wheel lugs and other high torque applications?
Last edited by Millsy088; Sep 26, 2021 at 02:44 AM.
Reason: More info
right now, shipping is quite high all over the world, would not really recommend having shipping - global supply chain is trained and prices are like 10 x what they should be.
right now, shipping is quite high all over the world, would not really recommend having shipping - global supply chain is trained and prices are like 10 x what they should be.
yeah fair enough, although im not sure that i can find any over here anyway
4 to 5 lug conversion 
Re: 4 to 5 lug conversion 
