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@colin42: The immobilizer light is solid green when I put the key to accessory. It goes out when I turn the key to crank the engine, and comes back on when I release the key
@ezone: Three of the spark plug seals have gone, so those plugs were soaking in oil when I got them out. The one that has a good seal was a dry plug. Fuel pump still, even though I can hear it?
Had to put it away tonight so I can get the day-job done, but tomorrow I'll test compression and spark. What's the best way to check for fuel?
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Joined: Dec 2011
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
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Re: 2002 Crank no Start no Codes
It goes out when I turn the key to crank the engine, and comes back on when I release the key
Sounds normal
Three of the spark plug seals have gone, so those plugs were soaking in oil when I got them out.
Someone boogered up the plug tube seals when the valve cover was last installed?
Crank it over before you try to install plugs, you don't want to have a cylinder half full of oil and hydrolock the engine
The one that has a good seal was a dry plug.
So it's probably not getting fuel.
Fuel pump still, even though I can hear it?
Doubt it failed. These aren't Chevy pumps.
What's the best way to check for fuel?
Confirm spark first....
If it's got spark, Get a spray can of anything flammable (starting fluid, carb/throttle cleaner) ....Remove air filter cover......and spritz some into the throttle while cranking...If that gets it to try to fire, you confirmed "Lack of fuel" for whatever reason. Injector signals, pump pressure, scanner data list, etc.
Had a chance to look at this some more today. The first thing I did was check compression.
0.
Zero.
On all cylinders. I even double-checked the compression tester with another vehicle, in case it was the tester that was broken.
But.. I'm certain that I was seeing the rockers move; I'd expect nothing if the timing belt had gone. Any other diagnostic tests I can try to confirm this?
Logic tells me choices are
Holes in all your pistons
timing belt skipped bunch of teeth and bent valves
Completely clogged intake
bad compressiion tester
I haven't put any (more) oil down the cylinders - the leaking spark plug oil seals will have done that for me
I tested the compression tester with one of our other cars, and got a reading that i expected.
The car turns over really well - wouldn't I have heard noises if there were bent valves?
Not sure how to test for a clogged intake - where to start looking?
I put a borescope down one cylinder - definitely no holes in that one!
I took the valve cover off this evening, and can confirm that there is a timing belt there, and it all rotates when the engine turns over (and valves move). There doesn't seem to be much tension on the timing belt, though - I can push and pull it around with a screwdriver (i.e, I can push it away from the engine and pull it towards the engine easily enough). Are there any timing marks I can check against without having to dig too much deeper on the engine? (I'm happy to change the timing belt etc, but want to be 100% sure before I do it...)
But does it sound like it doesn't have ANY compression?
Yes. When I've turned over other engines - even by hand with no plugs in - you can hear the cylinders wheezing as each reaches TDC. Nothing like that here. I had all four plugs out, and all I got was maybe a very slight breeze. Nothing to disturb the compression tester I had in #4.
Wiggle check the rocker arms up and down......Is there a lot of free play? Like way more than 0.010"
Yes. Some are under tension, but 11 out of the 16 arms have free play - at least 2 arms have like 1/4" play up and down. What would that imply?
Tensioner pulley is floating, not locked. It's dampened, but under spring tension at the same time.
OK - I'll dig deeper to see if there's anything on with the belt.
Remove 3 more bolts (10mm wrench/socket) to remove upper timing belt cover.
The bottom one is a nuisance to get out - I'll try that again on Wednesday, and check the timing.
As always - many thanks for the ongoing assistance!
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Joined: Dec 2011
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From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
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Re: 2002 Crank no Start no Codes
1/4 inch of play is bent valves. The end. EDIT unless something else weird happened
Figure out why the timing belt jumped time (tensioner spring broke or wore through the arm of the pulley?) .......then pull the head for valve replacement or pull the engine
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 32,017
Likes: 256
From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517
Re: 2002 Crank no Start no Codes
If you look down a row of valves, all of the valves that are closed (not being pushed open by the cam lobes) their spring tops should all be at the same height. Any valves that are bent will have their stem pulled down and valve spring thus compressed....
if you wish to remove the rocker shafts from the head, the valve springs that are very low should become pretty obvious
Afraid not - north Utah... I'm considering finding a JDM engine locally to replace it, and giving the new motor a going over with a new timing belt, water pump, tensioner etc before installing it.
I got the head off this evening. Definitely bent valves. It looks like the tensioner let go - timing belt was done less than 20,000 miles ago, and the tensioner was completely out of alignment.
My plan is (was) to replace the head with a remanufactured unit, plus the timing belt etc (and HONDA tensioner).
My question, however, relates to the pistons. They all have obvious marks on them from where they hit the valves; Should I go ahead with the new head, or is the block toast and the whole repair a waste of money? If it's marginal, is there any other test I can do to check the bottom of the engine?
Here's one of the pistons (all four are about the same...)
Honda Piston after a short get-together with the valves.
Phew! Thanks! I'll start ordering the parts tomorrow for the repair.
Originally Posted by ezone
Would you like to pull pistons for a rering while the head is off? (oil rings are usually stuck, it slowly burns oil)
I don't know... would I? I've never done pistons before (I've done head gaskets, usually on Subarus, but nothing deeper). Is it a massive increase in the size of the job I have? What would be involved?
If you think a good mechanic is expensive, try hiring a bad one
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 32,017
Likes: 256
From: Midwest. Aiming about mid-chest
Rep Power: 517
Re: 2002 Crank no Start no Codes
It's a bit more time, work, and expense.
It would give you an opportunity to see if the dink marks from hitting valves has caused deeper damage to the pistons (pinched rings). I don't expect that happened, too far from the edge.
My 2005 civic had the same symptoms and solved it by changing the CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR.
I *so* wish that it ended up being such a simple fix! Many bent valves on this one - the timing belt slipped.
When I tore down the engine, I found that whoever had done the last timing belt had reused the old tensioner bolt - which was one of the short ones that Honda replaced with longer bolts a while ago. I have the new bolt arriving tomorrow - in the meantime I did the water pump, plus the front main seal and the O-ring on the oil pump. Timing belt will be done tomorrow, then tappets, bolt it all back up and pray that the new cylinder head is happy..
Phew! Thanks! I'll start ordering the parts tomorrow for the repair.
I don't know... would I? I've never done pistons before (I've done head gaskets, usually on Subarus, but nothing deeper). Is it a massive increase in the size of the job I have? What would be involved?
If it burns oil, I’d change the rings. It’s not hard once the head is off, you just have to pull the oil pan to get to the rod cap nuts, but if you need to do it anyway, better now than once it’s all back together. If not addressed, an oil burning problem will eventually ruin your o2 sensors and cat.
I purchased a new head from Machine Shop Pros (http://machineshoppros.com/). Got an OEM timing belt kit, and also picked up all new timing belt covers. Dropped the oil pan and did the piston rings, plus the EGR and IAC valves. New hoses and belts, new water pump, and I did that little gasket behind the oil pump. Pretty much a complete engine rebuild. Stepson now has his car back, and he's very happy with the work done and the price (because wifey won't let me charge shop rates for the labour!). I even had it washed for him.
