Rep Power: 150

I am hoping that they will recoup enough for the timing belt change that once done, they will get whatever other minor problem is fixed . You should not have to pay for their learning curve if that is what they are doing. Were they actually able to duplicate what it was doing wrong?
I have only changed 3 timing belts and water pumps on my old 85 and one on my 95. It's a big job but I was not rushed. Only problem I ever had was the 95 was a real bear to get the damper bolt broken. My 3/4 impact would not do it because I did not have the locking tool that fits inside it and the breaker bar and socket goes thru it. My 85 would just break with that hudge impact.

 
Rep Power: 210

this is incorrect,

if you remove the spring the tensioner will move without loosening the bolt,

you do not need to loosen the bolt to take tension off the belt

 
Rep Power: 210

Midas are unethical to begin with

 
Rep Power: 210

you can curse at them all you want, but your still going to have to pay them for the work and time they have spent on your car,

most of the time, the cheapest option is the most expensive one to begin with,

 
Rep Power: 0

I wonder if it's possible that when it jumped it put the car into limp mode which protected the engine. Regardless they can't come back at this point and say the engine is damaged without assuming responsibility. It would be completely on them. I will let you guys know how this all turns out for sure.

 
Rep Power: 210

wishful thinking

 
Rep Power: 0

Well id just leave the car there and refuse to pay. Then use my money to go get a car that runs instead of paying twice that because they tried to scam me.

 
Rep Power: 518

You are incorrect on all of these.


They can jump time too.

The people with real problems seem to be the 'low maintenance' and discount oil change crowds.

 
Rep Power: 210

courts are made for reasons like this

nobody is trying to scam you, you took your car there for them to troubleshoot an issue, nobody said how long that would take,

did they provide you with a FIRM PRICE to fix the car entirely?....do you have a signed document stating the car will be fixed for XX number of dollars?....i doubt it

they found the timing belt to be A problem, that doesn't mean it will resolve the issue entirely, they may not be done their troubleshooting

 
Rep Power: 0

They called back about the alternator belt being cracked and worn. I started questioning them about the engine and they said they know of no issues with the engine. They did tests on the compression ect. I told them no more work til i know the issue is fixed. They called back and said that the car is running great. So i got them doing an oil change and the alternator belt now too. He said there are many times that this will happen where it doesn't mess up the engine and that there were just some tooths missing that caused it. They said the engine has no limp mode and is an interference engine. I suspect the reason it didn't mess up the engine is because i was at pretty low speeds. I was never very fast and as soon as the engine light flashed i pulled over. Guess i got lucky. I'll be at around a grand before tax.

 
Rep Power: 0

Nope but i got him on voicemail in email mp3 format saying the car is running great and there are no problems with the engine.

 
Rep Power: 150

Car that had a limp mode were made that way so when the ECM read a problem with certain controls that if incorrect could damage engine limited it's speed to force you to correct the problem. Problem with Honda's (a feature I do not like) is to get all the power out of them, the valves open so far to let air and fuel in or exhaust out that if all is not kept in proper time and order (cogged teeth timing belt or newer Honda old style chain..ha) if the valves are open and pistons come around, they hit top of piston and bend valves over. If the timing belt get old and shucks a few teeth, lots of times when starting since that is the greatest load, as soon as it does and you continue cranking for just a few seconds more, the valves are bent. My 85 did it but the camshaft broke at the shoulder of the large pulley and it let the large pulley turn a little since only thing holding it was threaded bolt. It bent 4 valves. Mikey, that last statement in post 32 makes no sense. You do screw the bolt out but you must loosen it to take tension off to replace belt. Glad they got it fixed Honda_no problems.

 
Rep Power: 210

no you don't need to loosen the bolt,

all you need to do to take tension off the belt is remove the spring, you don't need to touch the bolt, the tensioner can swing back and forth with the bolt tight,

the only time you need to loosen the bolt is if you need to fully remove the tensioner from the block

 
Rep Power: 150

Guess it's just been too many years. I knew when it was all said and done, One of those bolts was retorqued tight so there was not just a spring holding the play out of the belt like the accessory belt. Guess I was just not referring to it correctly. Once you have it setup and rotate it in the correct direction, the spring tensioner puts proper prload on belt (probably about 10ft pounds) you tighten 12. Then the spring no longer is applied to the belt since the tension idler is locked.

 
Rep Power: 518

That was true on all previous generations, but not on this 1.7 engine.

The timing belt tensioner pulley on the 1.7L engine does not lock in place.
It is always under spring tension and floating.

The tensioner pulley on this engine is a 2 piece deal. The center hub is bolted securely to the block, but the pulley is mounted on an eccentric that the tension spring connects to.


This pic shows how I release tension from the timing belt, I never touch the bolt unless I am removing the pulley:


I was going to see if I knew any shops in the area I could refer you to, but that's too broad.
We include the accessory drive belts with every timing belt job at our shop.

They can jump time by a tooth and still run. Not great, but run without bending valves.
If it jumps by 2 or more teeth, the computer may shut it down as it sees cam-crank signals out of sync more than "xx amount". There is no limp mode, it is just not allowed to continue running.

If it jumps more than 2 teeth, it's wandering into 'valve territory'. I don't know just how far out it has to get before doing serious damage, and I don't want to find out.


Certain codes and situations can induce "limp mode" though.




I'm wondering if you still have an underlying issue causing the misfire codes.

 
Rep Power: 0

Your advice has been very helpful man, in the end i was met with heavy resistance towards pulling the car out of a 2nd place to go to a 3rd one. If i have any other issues i will come to you about your garage.

I seem to have gotten very lucky here. I drove the car today on the highway and everything seems good. The motor is a little louder when accelerating at low speeds but it's not an alarming sound, kinda sounds like a new belt wearing in. No issues with speed or acceleration at all.

First thing i did with the car was drive to auto-zone for a gas cap.

Do you have any other suggestions on major things to watch for in the near future? I've now done the timing belt/waterpump (told them to do waterpump too but don't see "waterpump" on reciept -- im hoping its part of the belt change). I've replaced the battery previously, i replaced the motor mount, the alternator belt (serp belt), spark plugs. Any other things that are famous for failing on a 01-05 civic between 130k and 200k? Obviously at this point it's getting up there in age and anything could fail, but is there something that you ALWAYS see fail during this time? Got this car used at 60k and there's no manual with it so i'm in the dark. I'm thinking Alternator, Cadillac converter will be next but not sure.

 
Rep Power: 145

Don't bother changing your CATALYTIC (as in catalyst, an intermediate substance that increases the rate of reaction by reducing the overall energy required to complete said reaction) converter unless you have a code indicating it is faulty. They can last the entire life of your car, or much less, depends.... Besides, they are about $1000 for the stock converter, depending on your exhaust configuration.

Depends on how you drive, but there are aloways the obvious things like ball joints, CV joints, sway bar links and suspension. My evap system started leaking at 210k (KMS) and this is apparently common in areas where salt is used in the winter (corrosion on an external valve).

Now that you have got the timing belt changed and just maybe damaged the valves, you cuold get a valve clearance job done, just to be sure they haven't gotten so damaged that they are bent or damaged otherwise.

MOST parts don't really require "preventative maintenence" or "replacement" other than the obvious at this point, as in, the timing belt, other belts. The key to a long lasting car is FLUIDS! Get them all changed, often.... coolant (and flush it, don't just replace), engine oil, brake fluids, any other hydraulic fluids (clutch, etc) and transmission fluid.

Did the shop replace the tensioner? I know you said some teeth were missing on the belt, but why? Yes, because they break down over time, but I hope it wasn't due to a slightly faulty tensioner, otherwise, you will have another timing belt job on your hands soon, or worse!

 
Rep Power: 518

Water pump, and coolant or antifreeze would be separate items in the parts list.

They are not part of a plain timing belt job, they are either done in addition to the timing belt-- (with an additional labor charge for replacing the pump)

OR the job might be listed (billed) as a water pump job--- with a timing belt added.

If the water pump is fresh and new, you may be able to see a shiny clean edge of it from underneath the engine. If there is any question, you should be asking the shop that did the work.

The tensioner and spring in my picture, I try to sell a new set if the car will go past 200k on this belt job as I don't trust them beyond 200k.
I use ONLY OEM for this, aftermarket is not reliable enough for me to trust.

Take care of whatever breaks as it happens. Regular inspections by someone that actually cares about taking care of your car, not someone only interested in up$elling flu$he$ and unneeded services/parts.

Inspections by someone intimately familiar with the cars is a plus.
We cannot predict the future though.

Lower control arm front bushings?

Auto Trans fluid drain and fill every 30k maximum, no matter what the book says.
I would do trans fluid far more often than every 30k, myself.
I changed my own at 10k, and I used to change ATF on my mothers 02 Accord with every other oil change.
One guy in the shop owns 99 Accord, he changes ATF more frequently than his oil. That series of Accord (98-02) is well known for trans problems, so far so good.

I picked up an 05 CRV last week for my ol' ladys son, first thing I did was change ATF several times LOL. When it comes back for an oil change I will change ATF again.

 
Rep Power: 150

By going to the spring tensioned timing belt, did it allow a longer call out for the timing belt? Know my 85 was only 60K and belt would still look new. 95 was 90K but it still was the locked tensionerer. Ezone, did you find a good CRV forum. The one I listed is pretty lame.

 
Rep Power: 518

I believe the lengthened interval was due to material improvements, not tensioning method.

Haven't really looked seriously as of yet, I only glanced at the one you linked.

 
Rep Power: 0

Im gonna have to ask them about it then. They got the coolant flush on there but no "waterpump" but i asked them to do it and when i did they said they would have to flush the coolant too. Other parts say Timing belt kit, Engine mount (agreed to replace), Serp belt, valve cover gasket. I will just have to ask them about the tension situation and the water pump. I just don't want other issues related to this issue anytime soon and hopefully not before 200k checkup. I will talk to them.


Well that's the main issue and is why the car has not been treated the best. Ive flushed the transmission fluid and do my oil every 3-5 thousand miles but the only person i've found so far i can really trust is mainly a body shop guy. He said he couldn't even DO the belt when i asked him a few months ago.

Once i recover from this repair job and know where i'm gonna be at i will get ahold of you and see if you know someone.

]

Wow that's a lot. There's a lot of people who say NEVER to flush because it can cause issues. I've flushed the transmission fluid once. Sounds like i should do it again. This is an 03 civic. I am familiar with the issues with the accord, i use to have one and it would shift pretty bad. Did a transmission flush and it seemed to MOSTLY resolve the issue but not completely. I'd like to know why half the people say flushing tran fluid could be more dangerous then NOT and then others say to do it almost as often as oil. Would love to get to the bottom of that. I DO notice that the car is a little bit rough with that first shift. After that it seems to shift fine. With the first one though it seems to shift just a little bit late.

 
Rep Power: 150

You do not flush. Drain and replace with 3 quarts of Honda dealer transmission fluid only. If it's really dirty from neglect, you do a case of 12 doing it 4 times driving it around the block between each drain and refill. Just use old aluminum ring snugging lightly and then on the last 3 use the new ring. May be a good idea to replace the inline filter if yours has one. Guess if it does, it's in back under the air filter box. Dealer will tell you it is not a maintenance item since it's hard to get to. It does have a bypass relief in it. OEM Honda part only. Only they will have proper relief valve.

 
Rep Power: 518

Flushing with a machine or chemicals is bad news for Hondas.
Official flush method is multiple drain-and-fills.

Read this linked bulletin PDF, and keep in mind that our Honda approved fluid is now DW-1 instead of Z-1.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/p0420/A080100.pdf


Don't say flush unless you explain the meaning here. "Flushing" to me means using a machine, and even at work when I hear it I have to ask questions to make sure what someone meant.
Plain and simple: Fluid is cheap.
Trans replacement is expensive.

Honda had a lousy track record on transmissions for a long time, and about all we can do is take care of them by changing fluid.

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Many of these didn't say to change the fluid until some ungodly high mileage, and we saw plenty of problems before they reached that mileage.

Quote from 2003 Civic Owners Manual:
Replace at 120,000miles (192,000 km) or 6 years, then every 90,000miles (144,000 km) or 5 years.

Yeah, that's a helluva long time for trans fluid in any of these cars IMO.

Maintenance minder cars (8th gen and newer) seem to suggest trans fluid far sooner than that. Maybe Honda got a clue there.

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Even now, the transmissions aren't perfect, like even 8th gens can develop TCC shudder if neglected. (I haven't seen it in 9th gens yet, and so far our shop has seen no CVT issues in the new ones.)


Neglected units generally suffer more problems than maintained units, that's a fact.....even though some people never do a damn thing to them and they still go a long time.

Sometimes people don't think about trans service until there is some problem that pops up, so they go have a trans service done. Too late, that problem is because it's already broken... and it's too late to start taking care of it now.....
And they blame the service for their trans blowing up when the reality is it was caused by negligence.


Fluid breaks down with heat, and eventually needs changed. Todays fluid technology and synthetic fluids allows much better protection and longer replacement intervals, but there are still problems that crop up from time to time.

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Still better than many other products though.
New Chrysler pukes trans before 1000 miles? 30k overhauls were the norm for some? (There is a Chrysler dealer next door to me, I get to see and hear about some of their issues LOL)
Mikey? Wanna tell your MOPAR trans story now?

 
Rep Power: 210

good post and info!