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Hello all and thank you to anyone who reads my post and responds.

I have a 2003 civic lx (automatic), and I am getting very rough idling that goes away when I start driving; the engine shakes when I am at stop lights, but seemingly only after the engine has warmed up a bit, so from a cold start everything seems fine.

First a little bit of background. I bought this car at 90k miles about a year ago. The previous owner had the dealership do all the maintenance except the timing belt. Knowing this was an interference engine, after receiving the car one of the first things I did was get the whole shebang done (timing belt, tensioner and water pump). Fast forward to about a month ago, and I am getting rough idling and awful sounding engine at low rpm's. One day the car just refuses to start, so I take it to the shop; I am told the tensioner was defective, and allowed the belt to slip some.

In the process of diagnosing my problem, apparently the timing belt breaks (while in the shop, not driving). Alarms bells already. However they replace the tensioner and the belt, say that they checked the compression and everything looks fine, and I am on my way in a presumably working car.

One day a few days after the latest fix, I am at a stoplight and my engine shakes so horribly that the whole car is shaking, and I get a flashing check engine light. I get the car towed to the shop for another look, and they are clueless. They speculate that there was some debris from the last timing belt blocking one of the sensors, causing misfires, but tell me to keep driving it and see what happens.

So tl;dr I get bad shaking in my engine when in gear but not moving, which goes away when I am actually driving, and I have no earthly idea what could be causing it.

 
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Also I forgot to mention, the spark plugs are new, and the flashing check engine light didn't leave a code for some reason?

 
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is the engine lacking power?

i would suspect you might have damaged/bent some of your valves while this shop was "playing around" with it, either that or the timing is off, or maybe a combination of both

check your compression YOURSELF, or take it to a different third party shop and ask for a compression test, somebody isnt telling you the truth here

 
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The engine doesn't seem to lack power to me. And once I can get ahold of my brother's compression gauge, I intend to check it myself.

 
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did you have this done at a dealer or independant shop?

did you use OEM parts or aftermarket?

 
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It was done at an independent shop with oem parts from NAPA

 
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i am pretty sure napa does not sell OEM parts

and i don't know of any independant shops that use OEM parts

 
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What mystifies me is that the problem comes and goes. Today on my way to work (which is almost all highway, very few lights), I was waiting at a traffic light about 10 minutes into my drive. The cel started flashing, but I decided to chance it (knowing full well what this can do to my cat converter), and once I got on the highway the the shaking stopped and cel stopped flashing (not solid on either). At the end of my drive, which is a lot of traffic and lights, the car was fine idling, no flashing cel, no shaking, all the way into the parking lot.

If this were bent valves or off timing, shouldn't it display symptoms at all times?

 
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this doesn't seem right, why would they tell you to keep driving it?

they need to re-check the timing, i would bet it is off, they know it, they just dont want to do the work for free/warranty

 
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Well they couldn't replicate the problem (because as I have discovered, the problem manifests after being driven a bit, and then somewhat sporadically). They blew out the timing belt cover to remove any debris that might have been there blocking sensors.

 
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Take the black plastic cover off of the valve cover. Make sure they got all 4 coil connectors plugged all the way in (locked on), none are loose enough to pull off.



Right-O.

Watch out for the misleading brand name O.E.M. (Original Engine Management)at certain parts stores. It's junk.

Original Engine Management markets a bunch of aftermarket replacement parts. They chose their name so that it is abbreviated to "OEM", which normally is the acronym used to indicate actual original equipment parts from a vehicle maker. That sort of intentionally misleading marketing is a yellow (RED) warning flag in my book.

In reality they are just another importer of white box Chinese parts slapping a name on stuff and competing for the low price parts market.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1662999
Better quality shops certainly will.

 
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Update time: car possibly fixed. Hooray?

Ya'll were on the right track; when I replaced the spark plugs a few months ago, I bought *gasp* autolite ones (I did not expect to have the car more than a year or two, so why not, even if they are cheap, they should last at least more than 10k miles). When I replaced them with NGK iridium plugs, the bad shaking that got worse as the car warmed up went away. Old plugs did not have any obvious defects, the gaps were correct, and they were not fouled, so...? But whatever.

As an aside, this has lead me to a new set of problems, though they are less urgent; there is still some shaking, and the noise I thought was from the misfire is still there, however it is always there at idle and does not get worse, and isn't accompanied by a cel (maybe timing off slightly?).

Secondly, the flashing cel I was getting was not leaving codes. Before changing the spark plugs I unplugged a sensor and turned the engine on to get a cel, then when I got the code read it finally showed a code for misfire in cylinder 4 (along with the sensor code). So it does post codes, but it wasn't at least the last 4 times I checked for the flashing cel?

 
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Chalk up another mark for OEM NGK?
I don't have an answer for why some do this (programming flaw?), but I have been witness to exactly this myself.
It's tough to get codes out when there are none stored in memory.

 
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The OEM plugs specified by Honda aren't iridium, IIRC -- they're platinum.

I had a weird driveability issue with the *correct* NGK OEM-spec plugs -- and once I replaced them with the (much, much, MUCH more expensive ) OEM double-plat Denso plug, all of that went away and then some.

The NGKs new, idled worse than the Densos with half their center electrodes missing, which ticked me off not a little bit. But count the D17 as one of those engines that was probably designed around their plugs. Only a 5.3L early-Y2K Silverado has been anywhere near as fussy with not having an OEM plug as the D17 (IME, ezone says they seem to run okay with some spec of Autolite plugs). And in the 'Rado's case... I deserved it trying to put in 8 Bosch +4 plats.

Hate to go there... but you may solve this problem with the Densos (pt# PKJ20CR-M11, Honda pt# 12290-PGE-A01. Don't atomize your beer when you hear from the parts droid how expensive they are. Just to be thorough -- make sure your plugs are torqued correctly, as well as the coils installed snugly atop them. Retorque plugs after ~50-75 miles, so you know the plug gasket's seated. Heat cycles can loosen the original torque slightly.

 
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There's a somewhat normal NGK ZFR6J-11 listed for that engine in my catalog.

Platinums: NGK PZFR6F-11 and DENSO PKJ20CR-M11 are both OE plugs for that engine. (Not sure why you would have issues running NGK as opposed to Denso in yours.)

If the Iridium plug OP installed is listed in the NGK lookup for that engine, I wouldn't see an issue with using it in place of a Platinum. Both are precious metal, both are 100k plugs.


I think I said I just hadn't seen a running problem actually caused by them, in the few Hondas I have found them in.

 
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No idea. Very, very rare to see this, so I'm as stumped as you are. Trust me I would've much rather not spent the dosh for the Densos if the NGKs were any good, as they were much, much cheaper (and I like NGKs in Hondas on the moto side). No dice, the Densos fixed *all* the plug-related problems.

I'm not a huge fan of NGK iridiums as a drop-in upgrade though; they seem to work best in engines that specify them from the factory, and with coil-on-plug. Even the Bosch FUSION iridiums I've used have worked better than NGK irids in the Paseo (though the two situations aren't exactly related -- the FUSIONs are 4-electrode and OEM did not spec a 100K mi life). In my SV they're far worse, even in the same heat range, than copper-core dual-electrode NGKs a fifth of the price. The only thing I can see that would cause the irids to balk in the D17, is perhaps heat range, then resistance? I'm out of ideas at this point, but those pricey-a$$ Densos fixed mine.

What you said IIRC, was that (paraphrasing) 'Autolites don't seem to cause any running problems for this car *sshhhh*', or to that effect. I'm going to call 'not causing any running problems' the same as 'runs okay with'. Additionally I added the 'some spec of' to specify only the ones you saw run fine... so there's no bus on top of ya... not that I put there anyway.

 
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Alright, I just wanted to say thanks for all your help everyone. Car seems to be running fine now; either replacing the sparks or reseating the coils fixed it.

Though I have one last question, since I have been finding contradictory information; I swapped the coils from cylinders 1 and 4, just to see if I have a bad coil (if a misfire were to happen and give me a code again). Am I correct in assuming cylinder 1 is on the driver's side and 4 is on the opposite side? That is the way the Chilton's manual I have shows it, but I found online a diagram that shows the opposite, and they are both supposedly for my engine (sohc, 1.7L, etc).

 
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yes, as far as i know anyway

maybe ezone can confirm

 
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Cyl #1 is at the pulley end of the engine, #4 is at the flywheel end.
No matter which direction the engine got installed.

 
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Yup. Same for the K motors, and they're in backwards vs. the D17.

--

Oddly enough Honda moto engines are as seated on the bike/ATV/watercraft, L to R, always... and if longitudinal, then LH-RH, then FR-RR (Gold Wing, their watercraft). So on a GL1800 for example, the frontmost left is #1, rightmost front is #2, and rightmost last is #6.

 
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So, #1 is still the very first throw/first rod and piston on the crank, correct?

In automotive (and since the advent of OBD2 standardization), #1 is always the frontmost rod on the first throw of the crank (assuming V engine with shared throws). Numbering the rest of the cylinders is up to the manufacturer, but #1 is always and forever the first one.

Automotive doesn't have any engines that have the power takeoff in the middle of the crank (IDK if moto does now but it seems like I've seen some do it that way like on an inline 4).

 
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Well, wouldn't you know it, the problem is back. Drove the car today and got some severe shaking again, took it to an autozone to read the codes, and got misfires in cylinder 2, 4 and random multiple misfire codes.

So unless I have multiple malfunctioning coils, it ain't them. I checked to make sure they were still firmly seated and the wires going to them were not loose.

As an aside, it has not happened enough for me to verify, but it seems to happen the most on exceptionally hot days (or maybe that's just me).

Not sure what to check next?

 
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Yup, truth. GLs from the first 1000s to the latest 1800s are all longitudinal engines... and that leftmost/frontmost one is always #1.

What I was pointing out wasn't that the first throw isn't #1... but that in transverse car engines that can have their timing ends on either side of the engine bay (like the D17 vs. the K20), #1 for Honda cars is still on the timing end, so it has no relevance to passenger or driver's side.

That's opposite to how Honda does it on the moto side, which is #1 is always the front/left cylinder when you're sitting on the bike/watercraft... and nowadays even ATVs (which are Twins nowadays IINM).

Even more strangely... on Honda moto I-4s, the timing side is on the right side, as sitting on the bike, contrary to the Honda car engine way. #1 on a Honda I-4 is on the left side. Even more confusing is that timing and drive on a Japanese I-4 (IINM most modern I-4s) are on the same side, as drive is taken from the #4 inner or outer crank throw, which is circular with gear teeth machined into its perimeter. Some now have the same thing on either the inner or outer #1 throws, to drive a counterbalancer.


Hmm... actually I know more inline-Multis in cars that have center takeoffs than bike engines... though the great majority of them are old -- the latest being the Cizeta-Moroder V16T, which was a '90s sports car.

I could see a car using a bike-style geared clutch basket takeoff as on sportbikes, rather than a splined output shaft, since it tucks the trans closer to the centerline of the car... but then comes where to put the diff, which isn't on a motorcycle. plus integrating the block casting with the transaxle casting, which would also be more expensive and harder to service. That no one seems to bother with symmetry except Subaru, speaks to how easy it is to just engineer around it.

 
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https://www.civicforums.com/forums/2...fire-woes.html


???

 
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Actually have some car-derived experience dealing with connector problems on injectors from my Messcort...

That car shook like a paint mixer intermittently at idle about a year ago, roughly six or so months after I took over maintenance. Turns out I'd gone through not-far-off the linked OP's tribulations trying to find and squish this gremlin... until one day I was experimenting with indexing the injectors... when the idle suddenly went super-smooth, right in front of my eyes. I'd turned the #2 injector by holding the connector and rotating it when it happened... so, tried #1 & #3, no change. #4 though made it even smoother yet...

I hopped in and took it down my test road (40 mph posted on a relatively straight/level road behind a housing development)... and how smooth and flexible the lump became, astounded me. Guessing it could only be due to the connector (which had round pins that were as thin as wire)... I ziptied all 4 connectors down on their injectors snugly, then drove around my usual weekly routine, just to see what would happen...

Waaaay better mpg, for one. That stupid car wouldn't budge past 22 mpg all year long, but now decided to give me 27. Was much, much smoother and torquier too, with much more fine throttle control off-idle (makes sense). At this point my cat was probably burnt up... but I wasn't planning to restore it to Pebble-Beach-Concours condition, or anything. Two months later, a drunk bashed its brains out beyond repair...

Did not know this was an issue on the 7th-gens (at least the D17 ones). At least the connectors seem to not snap retaining barbs off in your hand when releasing them (which is how I could thread the zipties through them). May give mine a look-see when I swap coolant sometime this week.