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I'm planning to replace my head gasket next week on my 2003 Civic LX. It's pushing water out the overflow tube. It only has 140,000 miles. It's too bad this has happened to every civic I've ever owned.

Question: Is the tensioner bolt hole in the head? When I replaced the timing belt a year ago, I stripped the threads holding the tensioner on. I was able to replace them with a Heli-coil kit. It has worked so far, but I'm thinking that since I have to take the head off anyway, I should replace the head with a used one, just so I can have threads for the tensioner. Does the tensioner bolt go into the head?

2. I need to buy all the parts, before I start.
Does this look like the right list? Can you think of anything else needed?

The Head gasket KIT, which includes exhaust gasket and intake gasket
Bolts, cylinder head
water pump
tensioner
tensioner bolt
Plug, cylinder head (leaking oil)

I replaced the timing belt a year ago, it only has 25,000 miles on it, so I'm not going to replace it now. It will also make the job a little easier, since I won't have to remove the crankshaft bolt.
I've replaced the valve cover gasket recently, so I don't need to replace it, or spark plug seals.
I have a torque wrench, I have coolant.

Thank you,
Kevin

 
Rep Power: 518

Tensioner bolt hole is in the BLOCK, not the head.

If it has been ok with the helicoil, I'd leave it alone.

I don't ever touch that bolt unless the pulley has to come off, and it only has to come off if it needs replaced. I NEVER remove it to do any other work.

I use a small hook to move the spring off its peg so the pulley lets the belt relax, then do my work, then reconnect the spring when the time comes.






Reuse the head bolts. No need to replace those.

If you replaced the tensioner once already, and used factory parts, it should still be in great shape.

Oil change immediately after the head gasket job. You don't want coolant in the crankcase oil.

 
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i dont really see how its possible to do a HG job without removing the crank pulley, you need to remove the timing belt and lower timing belt cover, to do that you need to remove the crank pulley

 
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IF it was only a head gasket replacement, it can be done without pulling all that stuff.

However, OP listed a water pump. The crank pulley IS going to come off.....unless he chops a hole in the lower cover for access.

 
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how can it be done??

when i go to re-install the timing belt i want to be able to see the crank pulley to make damn sure the timing belt "teeth" are in the proper grooves on the pulley.....without the lower timing cover removed, that would be impossible,

not only that, but disengageing the timing belt tensioner, and verifying the timing marks would be difficult without the lower timing cover removed....not something i would recommend for a home/diy mechanic

 
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The belt will not slip into place unless it is engaged into the teeth. There isn't enough room to do this wrong. You can get it out of time, but you can't have teeth stacked on top of teeth.
I lift the spring off of the peg with a hook tool. After that, I can slip the belt off of the cam gear.

Timing parks are always on the crank pulley and lower cover. One can always locate TDC. I do not need to find the marks on the lower timing gear to locate TDC.





Does not matter if this is not the engine in question. Samey-samey.

 
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yes i realize all of that and know all of that, however, i still stand by my previous remark, that is not something i would recommend for the average diy'er or home mechanic

 
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Really? Your other posts in this particular thread seemed to indicate otherwise:




Sure sounded like you didn't think it possible at all.
I merely explained that it IS possible, and how I accomplish said work.


In fact, this is about the only way a tech could do the head gasket job within the allowed time stated in the warranty labor time guide.


Wasn't gonna dispute that... but the more info one has, the more options open up.

 
Rep Power: 209

possible? yes

recommended? no

i could do the job the way you describe, but wouldnt want to take the chance, honda specifically states the tensioner bolt should be loosened when re-installing the timing belt, not sure why you wouldnt do it that way,

im sorry, but unclipping the spring, and then re-installing the spring is not what honda recommends, doing it that way is wrong, the tensioner bolt needs to be loosened and the grenade pin installed, that is by the book, and would be inpossible to do without removing the lower timing cover,



personally i like to see with my own two eyes that the timing belt is centered on all the pulleys, and the teeth are in the grooves.....that means crank pulley, tensioner pulley, water pump pulley, and cam pulley,

the only way this can be accomplished is to remove both the top and bottom timing covers, advising a "home" mechanic, or a "diy'er" to do this job any other way is irresponsible and horrible advice,

i realize you are a professional, but others here are not, advice should be given upon what you think the poster is capable of, not what you expect of them, or what you would do,

 
Rep Power: 518

You only touch the bolt to remove the tensioner pulley.
I can C&P from Hondas service info if you really want.

You may be thinking of a 6th gen or earlier and mixing it in with a 7th gen?

It makes it soooo much easier to slip the timing belt back on when I'm not fighting that pulley. There isn't a lot of room for both of my arms in there.

There is an awful lot of stuff I do that is not "by the book". That alone does not make my methods any less right.

There can be many paths to the same finish line.
If you re-read the first post in this thread: I guessed the OP already has a pretty good handle on what he is doing. Not his first time under the hood of a car.
(OP: Ignore the part with the Sawzall.)

 
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I am too late? Is it over already?

 
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Grab your popcorn and head down the hall ------> https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...l-bearing.html

 
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no, that is not what honda states, the tensioner bolt is supposed to be LOOSE and the grenade pin installed when the belt is put on,

after the belt is put on, you install the spring, then you torque the tensioner bolt, then you remove the grenade pin, in that order,

those are the instructions directly from honda, when installing the timing belt

the easiest way to do a job is not nessessarily the proper way, or recommended way

yes it does, you are not following written company procedure when performing this repair,

there is only one correct path, unless you cheat and cut through the bushes


i know you know your stuff ezone, and im not trying to start crap, but advising others on the forum to perform repairs against honda procedures, specs and instructions is wrong

 
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HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.

You can't even keep your own story straight.

Earlier, you stated clearly:

Now you had the spring off, and according to what you wrote, "doing it that way is wrong".

 
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my story is straight, done the job many times, its your understanding/interpreptation of what im saying that is wrong,

of course you need to remove the spring either way you do the job, never said you didn't, and i never said i didn't.....i meant ONLY removing the spring WITHOUT loosening the tensioner bolt is wrong!



...

 
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Had to make a separate post......

What book are YOU using? What MODEL and YEAR are you looking up?

Since you want to argue over this:
Here's the C&P from Hondas ISIS website (Honda Service Express has the same info) for a 2003 Civic:

1. Remove the grommet (A) from the upper cover, and disconnect the camshaft position (CMP) (top dead center (TDC)) sensor connector (B).
2. Remove the upper cover (C) and lower cover (D).
3. Remove the side engine mount bracket.
4. Remove the crankshaft position (CKP) sensor from the oil pump without disconnecting the connector.
5. Apply a force of 98 N%u2022m (10 kgf%u2022m, 22 lbf%u2022ft) to the timing belt at the midpoint between the camshaft pulley and the water pump pulley and check that the auto-tensioner moves smoothly.
   • If the auto-tensioner does not move smoothly, replace the auto-tensioner.
   • Inspect the auto-tensioner when replacing the timing belt

20. Move the auto-tensioner to remove tension from the timing belt, then remove the timing belt.

(Sorry, I can't hotlink to their sites.)

I see no mention of the bolt in question, nor a grenade pin. Nor the spring.

Installation:

1. Clean the timing belt pulleys, and the upper and lower covers.

1. Set the crankshaft to top dead center (TDC). Align the TDC mark (A) on the timing belt drive pulley with the pointer (B) on the oil pump.
2. Clean the camshaft pulley and set it to TDC.
   1. 
      The ''UP'' mark (A) on the camshaft pulley should be at the top.
      Align the TDC marks (B) on the camshaft pulley with the top edge of the head.
      
      
      

1. Install the timing belt in a counterclockwise sequence, starting with the drive pulley.
   -1 Drive pulley (A) -2 Tensioner pulley (B) -3 Water pump pulley (C) -4 Camshaft pulley (D)

5. Install the crankshaft position (CKP) sensor


6. Install the bolts loosely, then tighten the side engine mount bracket mounting bolts in the numbered sequence shown.

1. Install the lower cover.

Etc.
(Sorry about the formatting, it didn't copy well.) EDIT: Damn, none of the numbers stayed as copied either.

Still no mention of the grenade pin, nor the bolt in question. Nor the spring.


My advice is solid.
(Except for that part with the Sawzall.)

You would never survive in a real shop doing this for a living. You would starve, or get booted for being too slow.
1) The only stated goal is to reach the finish line.

2) There are many paths to enlightenment.

 
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You typed something entirely different then.

Why bother to loosen the tensioner bolt when the damned thing is free to pivot on its own bushing as soon as you release the spring? Unnecessary step, and not in the instructions.

 
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well there must be multiple/different manuals out there then, here is what my honda service manual states for timing belt installation....which is what i have always followed....

- set the crankshaft to TDC, align the TDC mark on the timing belt drive pulley with the pointer on the oil pump

- align the TDC marks on the camshaft pulley with the top edge of the head

- align the holes on the tensioner pulley and the tensioner base then insert a 3mm grenade pin into the holes

- tighten the tensioner mounting bolt to 9.8NM

- loosen the auto tensioner mounting bolt 180 degrees

- install the timing belt in a counter clockwise sequence starting with the drive pulley

- install the tensioner spring

- rotate the crankshaft pulley two turns counter clockwise and set the no 1 piston to TDC

- tighten the auto tensioner mounting bolt to 44NM

- remove the grenade pin from the auto tensioner



what would the holes on the tenesioner and tensioner base be there for if a grenade pin was not to be installed?

 
Rep Power: 518

Many of those steps only need to be done when the tensioner is removed and installed or the bolt is loosened.
So if your instructions want you to loosen that bolt, then all this needs done.
But completely unnecessary to simply slip a timing belt on.

Don't you ever look at what you are doing, think about what the book is telling you, and wonder "WHY?"



For shipping (? it comes with a new one) and initial alignment during installation.

Once it is properly oriented (aligned) and anchored, it never needs redone until it comes off the engine (or until someone loosens that bolt again).




The books are only a guide.
Not The Bible. Or Koran, whatever.

Not that I read that anyway.
Hell, I'm going to Hell.
I got my ticket for a window seat on that bullet train. Smoking section.

 
Rep Power: 209

not true at all, these steps are required anytime the belt is removed and re-installed, wether it is the same belt, or a new belt is irrelevant, the steps are there to properly align the tensioner base on the block

yes, refer to my previous remark above

no, incorrect, the tensioner base needs to be re-aligned anytime the timing belt is removed and re-installed

no, once again incorrect, the tensioner needs to be re-aligned anytime the timing belt is removed, wether its a new belt or not


no, you are incorrect once again, the books are written by honda, and anybody servicing a honda vehicle should follow the proper procedures that honda dictates, especially one of their own shop workers,

 
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Where did you get your service info again? Who published it?

 
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Thank you very much for your help, you guys are great!

Thanks to ezone for telling me that the bolt is in the block, not the head, so I won't buy that.

Thanks to mikey for telling me that the tensioner is under the bottom cover. I've only replaced my timing belt once and forgotten the details.

So, yes, I'll have to take off the crank pulley so I can take off the bottom cover. And since I have to take all that off, I guess I should replace the timing belt, even though it only has 25,000 miles on it. It's only $20.

Yes, the hook is a great trick, to remove and install the spring. I used a coat hanger that I bent a hook on one end. Makes it much easier to re-install the spring. I could not figure out where to put the "pin."

Here's my new question:
What exactly do I need done to the head? at a machine shop?
Is it only: Check if it's not warped?
Plus; Clean the old head gasket off it? Or I can clean it myself, if I want.
Is that all?

Around how much does a machine shop usually charge for this?

Thank you,
Kevin

 
Rep Power: 186

If you're going to clean it yourself, acetone and a razor blade are your friend. Don't use anything abrasive on the head or block. Use a razor blade to scrape the old gasket material and any gunk off the head and block and give it all a good once or twice over with some acetone.

 
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check to see if the head is warped, and inspect all the valves to see if any are leaking (air)

 
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The gasket won't seal properly if the surfaces are not super flat.
The head needs checked for flatness so the new gasket doesn't blow again right away for no dang good reason. (If it suffered an overheat event, there is a great chance the head would be warped.)
You can do this yourself if you have a precision straightedge and feeler gauges, or any machine shop can check it for you.
A machine shop would also normally check the valve sealing while they have it for inspection (I would hope, anyway). Inquire there, not here.

It needs cleaned off of the head and the block surfaces. The gasket won't seal properly if the surfaces are not super flat.
There will only be a paint-like substance to remove. This engine uses a MLS (Multi-Layer-Steel) head gasket. The "paint" is the (moly/graphite?) coating from the old gasket.
Elbow grease, single edge razor blades, and brake cleaner or acetone will remove it.


/Break is over, gotta go.