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Old 09-17-2012   #1  
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low end power loss

i have a 2003 civic dx (non-vtec) automatic. Recently I drove the car during a flash flood of sorts and hydro locked the engine,(broken rod) i went out and baught a used engine that i was told runs great from the wreckers, i did a timing belt, water pump, front and rear main seals and a cam seal before installing the engine because it had 190k kms on it( not bad considering the old one had 320k on it). neways, the install went smoothly but when i took it out on the road it had way less power than the old engine at the low end.... almost like when you start moving in a standard from second gear, but it was drivable so i took it on about a 200km drive and on the way back i had it going about 140kmph and it would not go faster... also would not downshift.. stuck at 140 at 4000rpm, so i let it come down to 100 and tried it again and as i got to 140 the carjerked and threw an engine code but continued driving normally :s (the code was a cam sensor position a perfomance or malfunction error). so long story short i am lost about were to start on solving this issue ( code has been cleared and has not re-occured) also the car with the old engine topped out at 185kmph when it hits the governor.
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Old 09-17-2012   #2  
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Re: low end power loss

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i went out and baught a used engine that i was told runs great from the wreckers
There's your first mistake, no offense intended. That is probably the best place to go if you're cash strapped, but a "wrecker guy" telling me it runs great wouldn't make me feel good about at all.

There's so many variables with a used engine that's been sitting who knows how long in a junk yard, it's not even funny.

Lack of power and the mileage on it wreak of worn piston rings, but I'm sure Master Jedi ezone can chime in here and help you out. I'm just a padawan.

Last edited by Matt_75; 09-17-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 09-17-2012   #3  
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Re: low end power loss

lol yes yes i know terrible idea. but i needed it back on the road asap.. i will do a compression test on thursday. cuz i am away atm.
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Old 09-17-2012   #4  
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Re: low end power loss

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i will do a compression test on thursday
Good idea. I have a bad feeling that they'll all be low. That's just my prediction.

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Old 09-17-2012   #5  
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Re: low end power loss

ya im trying to stay away from that idea but it makes sense ... i was kind of thinking the torque converter maybe.. but im not sure exactly how to diagnose that?. it slips a lil when going into 4th but the last tranny i had did that as well lol ( last tranny blew up ) still using the same torque converter.
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Old 09-17-2012   #6  
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Re: low end power loss

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There's your first mistake, no offense intended. That is probably the best place to go if you're cash strapped, but a "wrecker guy" telling me it runs great wouldn't make me feel good about at all.
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Lack of power and the mileage on it wreak of worn piston rings, but I'm sure Master Jedi ezone can chime in here and help you out. I'm just a padawan.
1) Anyone selling something has something to gain by getting you to buy it. Treat them as you would any other car salesmaggot.
Also, you had better be right before you accuse someone else of being wrong.
(Scuze me, I think lightning just struck near me...)

2) Who you Jivin' with that Star Track noise?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_75 View Post
Good idea. I have a bad feeling that they'll all be low. That's just my prediction.

Why you stealin' my pic, Slim?

Good prediction. I'd agree the compression will be lower than it should be, but for a different reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercer137 View Post
i did a timing belt,



it had way less power ...at the low end.... almost like when you start moving in a standard from second gear,




threw an engine code but continued driving normally :s (the code was a cam sensor position a perfomance or malfunction error).


THE ANSWER IS........

The timing belt is off by one tooth.




Place your bets!






DON PARDO, TELL THEM WHAT THEY'VE WON!!


A NEW CAR!!!!




AND A YEARS SUPPLY OF




Thanks for playing!



Sorry, I seem to have gotten carried away.
Anyway, that's my guess right now.
Let me know if I'm right. LOL

Last edited by ezone; 09-17-2012 at 11:53 PM. Reason: darn gambling
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Old 09-17-2012   #7  
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Re: low end power loss

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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
The timing belt is off by one tooth.
Oh...Master... that is why he popped the cam sensor position code?

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Old 09-17-2012   #8  
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Re: low end power loss

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Oh...Master... that is why he popped the cam sensor position code?
That, plus the bottom end low power description made me think he made an error on the t-belt install..

Hope OP reports back what the fix is.






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Old 09-18-2012   #9  
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Re: low end power loss

OK so I'll do a compression Tessy and check the timing this weekend.. but I was under the impression that if it was off by a tooth it would idle weird?
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Old 09-18-2012   #10  
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Re: low end power loss

And I will def post what the fix is when I find it lol

Last edited by mercer137; 09-18-2012 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 09-18-2012   #11  
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Re: low end power loss

new Info...
i have an obd2 code reader (elm 327) and use the torque app which shows real time data from the ecu. i brught up the timing gauge and at idle with the engine warm, 710rpm the timing fluctuates between 4.5 degrees and 8.5 degrees...... problem possibly? im not sure but i think i remember checking it before just after putting the engine in and it was around 12, wich is much closer to were it should be.. correct me if im wrong.
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Old 09-18-2012   #12  
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Re: low end power loss

i would start by pulling the timing cover and double check your TDC marks, as was stated, it sounds like the timing is off
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Old 09-20-2012   #13  
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Re: low end power loss

Compressions are: cylinder #1 168, #2 170, #3 163, #4 175.
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Old 09-20-2012   #14  
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Re: low end power loss

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Originally Posted by mercer137 View Post
Compressions are: cylinder #1 168, #2 170, #3 163, #4 175.
Even enough to rule out individual cylinders, but low across the board (depending on your method, if I obtained those results those would be low).

Now look for belt timing.
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Old 09-20-2012   #15  
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Re: low end power loss

Timing is bang on. .. belt us tight.. .. what other method?
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Old 09-20-2012   #16  
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Re: low end power loss

Ummm, figure out why the compression is low?

When I do a compression check, I pull all the plugs out, screw in the tester, then floor the gas pedal with a prop rod (or another person). Crank it, and keep cranking it until the compression tester maxxes out and doesn't climb anymore. Then a few more hits to make sure of it. Probably 10 or more hits.
Repeat for each cylinder.

Valves too tight (valve adjustment)?

Valve timing (cam timing)? I would verify that the #1 piston is actually at TDC when the timing mark on the crank pulley says TDC, then inspect the valve timing on #4 to make certain they are on overlap when #1 is on TDC compression. (If a keyway for one of the timing pulleys has been damaged or slipped, this might help show the problem).

I'm still stuck at something wrong with the timing. Maybe it's a forest/trees thing too.
Valve adjustment and cam timing problems should normally show up in the form of lowered manifold vacuum too. (I would watch the MAP data on a scanner to see this part, voltage is normally below 0.90V at idle with no loads @sea level.)

Would it run any better if the cam position sensor was left unplugged? Try that real quick and see what happens before doing any of the above....

Is the engine an exact match to your old one?

How much of your old engine was reused---intake manifold, injectors, stuff like that.....and what was already on the "new" engine that you went ahead and used?
I'm wondering if gummed up injectors could give you a problem. They tend to do that when they sit in a junkyard for many months or years.

Was all the water dumped out of the original intake manifold? And out of the big plastic chamber on top of the trans? (I think I'm just doing wild guesses now.)


Fuel pressure?
PCM data on a good scantool? May be clues there if nothing else pans out.


Wish I could actually see the car, I might get other clues that way.
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Old 09-20-2012   #17  
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Re: low end power loss

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Originally Posted by ezone View Post
When I do a compression check, I pull all the plugs out, screw in the tester, then floor the gas pedal with a prop rod (or another person). Crank it, and keep cranking it until the compression tester maxxes out and doesn't climb anymore. Then a few more hits to make sure of it. Probably 10 or more hits.

Repeat for each cylinder
It little OT from the OP, but in your experience, what do you typically see on the 7th gen civics for compression and/or what do you consider healthy compression numbers for a healthy engine? This is all assuming every thing is as it is suppose to be with the engine in general, e.g. correct oil, correct timing, valve adjustment, bore/piston rings not worn etc. The service manual I have says:

  1. Compression Pressure:
    Above 930 kpa (9.5 kgf/cm2, 135 psi)-250 rpm (min-1)
  2. Measure the compression on the remaining cylinders. Maximum variation:
    Within 200 kPa (2.0 kgf/cm2, 28 psi)
  3. If the compression is not within specifications, check the following items, then remeasure the compression.
  • Damaged or worn valves and seats
  • Damaged cylinder head gasket
  • Damaged or worn piston rings
  • Damaged or worn piston and cylinder bore


Last time I did mine a couple months ago I had 190,189,191,190. All dry numbers. I didn't bother with wet. I figured they'd be close.

I've always wonder this and never got to ask an experienced mechanic like yourself.

Thanks for any answer with or without sarcasm and criticism.

Last edited by Matt_75; 09-20-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 09-20-2012   #18  
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Re: low end power loss

Quote:
what do you typically see on the 7th gen civics for compression and/or what do you consider healthy compression numbers for a healthy engine?
It is actually sort of rare that I really do compression tests on these, most of the time I see these with head gasket issues and go straight for the one test I KNOW will reveal the problem.

In general, I expect to see well over 180 PSI on most of the cars I see regularly, some will give 220 and higher on occasion.

I usually take into consideration the type of problem I am checking for, and what the engine and car runs and drives like too, when evaluating a comp test.

Like the OP's low bottom end power complaint and (somewhat) low compression readings that were sort of expected, I totally expect cam timing to be off for some reason or another......But if I could actually see and drive the car myself, I might see/hear/feel something others don't and I might take a completely different approach to the problem.


That 135 is enough to ignite the fuel, but a Honda engine with compression that low has huge problems. Darn near any modern engine would have problems at that.
Variation should be no more than 10% between cyl's (industry standard).

Hot battery and good cranking speed plays a big part too. Comp readings that taper off as you go are indicative of a battery that is running down during the test.
Quote:
Thanks for any answer with or without sarcasm and criticism.
I have absolutely no idea who would do such a thing.

Last edited by ezone; 09-20-2012 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 09-20-2012   #19  
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Re: low end power loss

The way i did i the compression was take all the plugs out, gauge on and crank over 8-10 times then read the gauge
i checked that #1 and #4 were actually at TDC when the timing marks were on and they were.
I dono what you mean by forest/trees??.
i will check the MAP data tomorow..
The car wont start without the cam sensor plugged in. (tried it) and yes the engine is the same... well my old one was a canadian engine and this one is american, if that makes any difference?..
the intake manifold came on the engine and i didnt touch anything on it.

while i was checking the timing i decided to take a look at the crank and cam sensors and the crank one especially was gummed up so i changed both cam and crank sensors with the old ones, i also put the old coils in the engine and i checked to make sure the cat wasnt clogged (while taking it out i noticed the the bottom o2 sensor was loose so that got tightened)

I took it for a test drive and it feels like it may have more power (chirps the tires on start) ill will take it out on the highway tomorow morn to check for sure.
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Old 09-20-2012   #20  
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Re: low end power loss

Quote:
and crank over 8-10 times then read the gauge
Ideally, this should be a 2 person job. One to sit in the car and hold the gas pedal down, the other to work and read the gauge and call out instructions to the person in the car.

Or have a long hose on the gauge so you can read it from inside the car.


Quote:
The car wont start without the cam sensor plugged in. (tried it)
Was just a thought, put the computer in a failsafe mode as a test. Some will run without it, apparently some won't.

Quote:
and yes the engine is the same... well my old one was a canadian engine and this one is american, if that makes any difference?..
I have no answer there. I'm just used to having to double check whatever a wrecking yard sends.

Quote:
I dono what you mean by forest/trees??.
http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...+for+the+trees
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Old 09-21-2012   #21  
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Re: low end power loss

many testers do have a hold function so one man can do the job.
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Old 09-21-2012   #22  
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Re: low end power loss

True.
But it's hard to know if it is OK to quit cranking if you can't see what is going on.
A starter button helps for a one-man operation.

I also watch for the amount of rise each stroke gives.
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Old 09-21-2012   #23  
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Re: low end power loss

lol i like the forest tree's thing .. never heard it before ... ne ways im gonna do a valve adjustment today and change the fuel injectors... o and my scan tool seems pretty limited but i think its the ecu limiting it not tool ???
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Old 09-21-2012   #24  
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Re: low end power loss

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o and my scan tool seems pretty limited but i think its the ecu limiting it not tool ???
In general:
Consumer grade code readers are severely crippled.

Unless you paid a couple thousand (wildazz guess) dollars or more for your scanner, it is probably limited in its abilities, although some of the cheap hand-held units are doing some pretty amazing things nowadays. Most consumers have no use for a lot of the data available.

The more you pay, the more data you get.

Different manufacturers give access different things too.
One might give a pretty complete set of data on an engine and trans, but you might get zero coverage for ABS, SRS, IMA, EPS, or body systems. Another might give some data for many systems, but not all data on any of them.... Get it? (I think much of it is based on how much the toolmakers pay the factories for their info access when designing the tools.)

Aftermarket/independents that step up and pay the big money for the HDS aren't allowed access to immobilizer and key programming/systems without a locksmith license.....(that's what I have heard, I can't verify this though.)

If you ever get to see what our factory supported (technician level) tooling can do, then you could realize in what areas yours is lacking.

The engineers get data/info that is even better than what we techs get, but a lot of that stuff techs really have no use for in the field.
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Old 09-21-2012   #25  
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Re: low end power loss

Ya I just have the elm 327 Bluetooth using the torque Android app. Its pretty good for what I need most of the time .

So I'm going to also sea foam the engine as well today . Not sure on the value of doing it is but gonna try anyways.

After a trip on the highway today it for sure seems to run better.. also it idles Atty just under1000 now instead of 600 to 750
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