nhcivic

Hello Civic forum. I am hoping the forum members can help with a problem I have with my 2004 LX ( 210000 miles). About three hundred miles ago I had the timing belt & water pump replaced at a local garage. Well last Saturday the Civic just died while going down the highway. Thinking it might have something to do with the recent repair , I had it towed to the same garage. They said they pulled the timing cover and the belt & tensioner are fine. He said that he pulled the valve cover and that some of the valves where not working. He told me that he felt that the engine had sever damage and that it would be a waste of money to go further. He figures that it must be the crank or it through a piston ( believe he said ) . This was the first time that car had been serviced by anyone other than the dealer and it had always run like a watch. So the big question I have for all you is Do I believe the mechanic? How often does a Honda Civic engine just throw a piston or break a crank shaft? My son says that I am being taken for a ride by the local shop or the tech is trying to cover his rear. For what it is worth I have known about this shop for ten years and have never heard bad things about it , only referrals. Thanks, NHCIVIC

Matt_75

Hard to tell with out seeing it. Did you change the oil regularly on it? Did you run it low on oil? Did you have a check engine light (CEL) before this happened? Was the oil light on the dash illuminated?

If these engines run low on oil, they get hot and a connecting rod can literally punch a whole through the engine block. Once all the oil is burned and the engine is grinding on itself, the engine can just seize up. If that is the case, it's new engine time.

You can always have it towed to another mechanic or the dealer and get a second and third opinion.

nhcivic

This was my wifes car ( now my college son's) and it was serviced regularly , never burnt oil and the oil level was full, no service lights on. That is why I find this kinda straing. I would think that there would be some warning that things were not right , like smoking, hard to start, not running moothly, something like that. Any thoughts on this are welcome. Thanks, nhcivic

wrencher

Sorry to hear about that.
May be related ....or not.... the valve part of their explanation is raising my eyebrow....hmmmm????
I would get it towed to the dealer and have a documented explanation of what they think happened! :"Dealer" because i think in a court they may be seen as a better "expert" opinion. (if it goes to that) A second garage will have no advantage in smudging the truth.

Don't loose faith in your original garage mechanic

Accidents happen....even to the best mechanic....may not be his fault....something may have let go. who knows. and not my place to assume. seen many cases like this. Where cars towed from other garages.

Please let us know what they find
Hope it all turns out well for you



When an engine "throws a rod" it is usually preceded by load banging from the engine....usually oil pressure light will then come on... as the bearing clearance becomes excessive and oil pressure can not be kept. "that part is refered to "spun a rod bearing" "knocking on the crank" and seldom will the engine "just die"..It does have a very hard time idling ..untill this smacking the crank finally breaks the rod or end cap and either punches through the block or jams itself. Drove quite a few cars into my bay with spun rods or severely banging.

nhcivic

Thanks Wrencher. I will take the advice that you and Matt_77 offered and have it towed to the dealer. Granted, the car has over 200K on it but these engines don't just self destruct for no reason. I will try to get some pics and will post back when I find something out. nhcivic

scooty

Broken valves indicate a botched timing belt repair since these are interference engines which means if a timing belt breaks the valves and pistons mesh and damage occurs. Perhaps he incorrectly set the tensioner and the belt jumped.

Either way, i just think it's too much of a coincidence that you have bent valves right after a timing belt repair especially since the oil is fine and you were not racing the engine, were you?

So to answer your question, What Are The Odds? Very slim that it was just its time go and had nothing to do with the repair.

Matt_75

^^^^^^^^^ What he said. I thought about it too. Unfortunately, they probably botched the timing belt job, the belt slipped and you bent your valves, which basically will kill the engine because you have no compression in the cylinders. The shop, of course, would never admit this, unless they were a stand up shop, because they'd have to eat the cost for a new engine and labor.

A compression test in all four cylinders, with the timing belt timed correctly, would quickly reveal a bent valve rather quickly. You should get greater than 130 psi in all four cylinders with minimal variance between cylinders. If it's 0 out of all four, then you know where you stand.

cvguy

This one thing suggests you will probably have no success getting any reimbursement out of the original shop. The 3 possibilities are:
1) The shop that did the work was completely honest, and it happened exactly as they said (coincidence aside). They did the timing belt correctly, and it was just the engine's time to go.
2) They're completely honest, made a mistake on that job, and even now can't see what their mistake was. This one seems really unlikely to me.
3) They're crooks. Botched the timing job - maybe forgot to torque the tensioner and the belt jumped. So, to cover up, they just repositioned the belt to the pully marks and torqued the tensioner correctly. Or maybe even the belt broke, so they just replaced a new one. Not saying anything like this did happen, just that it could have.
But the bottom line, is that you're going to bring it to another shop, and they're (very likely) going to see no problem with the timing belt job. Now, just maybe it was #2 above, the second shop finds the mistake, and then the first shop makes good on it. That would be great, but I wouldn't plan on it happening. And then, if you need to get a lawyer ... well we know how that will end up for you . So I think, instead of twisting your stomach into knots, you should prepare yourself to just take the loss, and move forward with whatever decision makes sense on the car, depending on what they find is wrong, and how much the repair will be.
What you're going through with this is one of the reasons so many of us here try to do as much as possible ourselves. With my mistakes, I just go to the mirror - that's the guy who did it - give him the middle digit, plus a word or two, and then just fix the mess.

nhcivic

Many good replies and I thank you all. For Scooty I will have to say that my son was driving and he has very good driving habits. At 24 yrs old I would know by now if he was not a responsible driver.He was actually just going down the highway. I also hear you cvguy. I have done a lot of my own work over the years but at 49 and no decent shop to work in , I have gotten lazy and let others do the work for me. I am going to have another shop look at it and go from there. I did wonder if "maybe"the mechanic didn't just tighten the timing belt back up and make it look like it was not his fault. My first thought was to believe the shop but after reading the replies and talking to the Honda dealer, another garage owner , and a few other people I now think that the mechanic is not telling the truth. That said , how far does one go in pursuing this since the car is 8yrs old and has over 200K ? O'well, I will let you know what the other shop says.
Thanks, nhcivic

Matt_75

It's all really up to you. It's going to be hard for you to prove that anything happened with the timing belt since you took it back to them right away. Had you taken a part yourself or a friend do it, you could have documented what you saw through photos and may have had a case. But since he probably "fixed it", you're pretty much screwed with no proof other than he said/you think.

The time belt came loose either through his fault or an honest mistake. Either way, he probably checked it and "re-timed" it and said it was good to go so he didn't have to eat the cost of a new engine with labor. At a minimum, you're looking at the head being removed for a valve job. As I said before, a compression check will tell you pretty quickly if the valves are bent. You may have bent the connecting rods as well. Then I would say you're looking at a refurb engine, vice an engine rebuild, if you want to salvage the car. That's just my opinion.

Good luck with whatever you ultimately decide. It's a very unfortunate situation to be in at this point.

wrencher

new series... CSI HONDA

forgot to ask- did it crankover kinda "empty" after it stopped? do you know what an engine sounds like cranking with low/no compression?

Timing belt jump, yeah when my eyebrow went up that's what i was insinuating. Strange how he mention valves "not working" as opposed to the most common reason for a failed motor (blown base) remember??? ... I didn't want to mention anything specific cause people have a tendency to go on a "witch hunt"...without looking at all possibilities or evidence.

Cover up? not so easy!

so maybe the mechanic re-aligned the t-belt to cover up the jump thinking it was his mistake?

A good experienced mechanic looking for the "cause" should be able to pick up on "clues" left behind. Trust me. there are many clues left behind within the internals of the motor.....even with a quick external coverup. Unfortunately- it will cost money to check.

You don't always need to find the gun...or even the bullet....just the bullet hole

First ask the new shop to remove the valvecover and check the valve stem height or do a leakdown to detect any bent valves, . if one or more are bent with no broken springs or missing locks...It will be a good possibility that the cam timing went off - but still not 100%. Valves only bend with interference. Be it: 1)the spring breaks/ lock flies out and the valve "*****", piston smacks. 2)piece of debris; "something" flies into the cylinder through the intake. 3)valve itself loses a piece . 4)or piece of spark plug breaks (careful...can also be an after event). 5) piece of injector or 6) even carbon buildup (not so common nowadays). or this engine
If they are found bent have the head removed and the piston heads and head chambers checked for marks/indents, whatever "interfered" will usually still be around....or at least a clear mark of it. If it was just the valve- only crecents shaped marks will be on the piston dome. Usually a couple or more.
Quick, look at the timing belt. IT should look perfect,every cog perfect, it is new,and yet a motor spinning at 2000 rpm will "grind/damage/mark a flapping timing belt very quickly untill it halts. At 2000 rpm that cam sproket spins 16x per second- the base 33X per second. A no compression engine takes a while to stop spinning.
If very minor mark/then base will usually be ok. a new (remanufactured) head will be in order (new valves, guides and seats, + usual checks of rockers & cam).
However, with mileage of motor, I would only consider a used head....as the higher compression of a new head could cause problems to your base.

If the base threw a rod, a valve(s) can also be bent.... but the rod damaged first... the damage to the top end was a consequence.

Let's wait and see what you find

Do you think the original garage will negotiate some kind of arrangement?

Hope it works out

wrencher

Also check that all the long rubber seals are on the timing cover plastics and intact....seen a few cases where these rubber seals (especially upper to lower cover) seals are not placed perfect and fall into the timing belt cavity and cause the t-belt to jump a or couple cog.

nhcivic

Yeh, it cranked over fast & quiet just like if the plugs where out. I know what you mean about not wanting to go immediately on a which hunt. That was my first reaction but the more I think about it and talk to people I have changed my mind. You seam to know what you are talking about and I will pass on your recommendations to the new shop. I kinda figure that the belt would have to be chewed up a bit if it did slip. There would probably be pieces of the belt scattered about as well.
The car is going to the new shop today. This shop actually specializes in high end foreign autos. My son has taught the owners son karate for the last ten years and he is going to take a look at it.
Also ,now the original mechanic is changing his story. He told my son that he did not change the tensioner but told the new shop owner ( Mike) that he did change it. Thing is ,that it is not listed on the bill. ( Mike had suggested that the original mechanic call him so they could talk mechanic to mechanic). That phone call left Mike with serious doubts about the original mechanics abilities.
We will find out in a few days what really happened. My main goal is to get this honda back on the road. Secondly would be trying to get some kind of reimbursement from the original shop if they are in fact responsible for this due to incompetent work.
Thanks again , nhcivic

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

That may well have been the problem.

Was this the cars 2nd timing belt change ??

nhcivic

Hi CraigW, yes, this was the second belt for this car. My wife bought it new and had it serviced at the dealer per the recommended schedule. We had never done this before but my wife drives a lot to work & back and she wanted piece of mind. I thought it might not be a bad idea also because it would be one less thing for me to worry about and she could not blame me if something went wrong The dealer did good work but was expensive. That is why I thought I would try a different shop, that coworkers recommended, for this belt replacement. What does Ron Ananian ( the radio car doctor) say " a good mechanic is not expensive. He's priceless!

scooty

Check the guy's ASE certification, if he has one. It's probably expired. Might give you the upper hand if you choose to take him in to small court.

nhcivic

Good Idea. I had not thought of that.

nhcivic

Well here is the final chapter in this story. The new shop replaced all the intake valves because they were bent. They de carbed the head , installed a new tentioner and new gasket on the water pump. That gasket was leaking because the surfaces had not been properly cleaned before installation. The original shop had just performed an all around shody job. The car now runs fine after doling out $1000 in repairs and $500 in towing. I talked to the original shop owner today and got him to write me a check for $750. Yeh, I wish I could have recovered it all but when its all said and done I am probably lucky to have gotten that much from him. On the bright side of things I found this forum and even used some previous posts to change my wheel bearings this past weekend ( remove knuckle and take to shop to press in bearings) . Thanks for all the good advice. You guys are great. I'll see you around, nhcivic

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the results, and congrats on getting a partial refund as well.

I hope it runs another 200K !

mikey1

i think this is the most likely explanation, thats what i think too!