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I have a 2001 EX auto trans and recently replaced both wheel bearings/ball joints and passenger side CV axle. However after all this work I now have a grinding/flat tire lump lump lump sound coming from the transaxle (center of the car) when driving.

before I drop the transmission, I was wondering what I should be doing in order to trouble shoot the issue.

I have read several posts regarding the input shaft bearing, but not sure if this is the case. I have also read about the bearing where the axle is inserted to the transaxle going bad. Like I said trying to avoid looking into the wrong solution.

Any troubleshooting suggestions would be appreciated.

Just wanted to add...
- Trans shifts thru the gears just fine
- Trans fluid looks clean (red) and filled properly.
- With the tires off the ground and brakes removed, the axles are not as easy to rotate
- With both axles in and rotating by hand, you can hear and feel a slight grind
- With the passenger side axle removed you don't feel/hear the grind

 
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Anyone???

 
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Umm, if there wasn't an issue before you did that work, then I would suggest rechecking your work and the parts you replaced.

Raise the car up, let the wheels spin, and listen with a stethoscope to the wheel bearings and trans, see where the noise is loudest.

 
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Did that on Sat..

Last week I removed the driver side knuckle and brought it to my local Honda dealer to have a new wheel bearing installed (old one was shot). After installing the knuckle, this sound started. So I had removed the passanger side knuckle on Sat and had the dealer install a new wheel bearing (thought that was the grinding noise). With the car on jack stands, I put the car in drive ans let the wheels spin. When under the car I discovered that the grinding sound is coming from where the where the CV axles are inserted and that the passenger side CV axle slightly moves up and down when rotating (like it is not balanced).

I also noticed that the passenger side CV axle, which I replaced 3 months ago had spit out a bunch of grease in the area of the brakes. However the axle doesn't seem to have any play in the joints.

Only component that I have not replaced is the CV axle on the driver side.

 
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Ok took it for a quick drive on this cold morning and you don't hear it grind from within the car, more like a slight knocking sound and the passenger side tire sounds like it has a pebble stuck in the tread.

 
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my bet is on the axle. either it was installed wrong, or cheap aftermarket part was used.

 
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How would one install the axle incorrect? I know you have to tap the axle in with a dead blow hammer so it is seated, but not sure if there is any thing beside that.

God I hope that it is just an axle!!

Also found the pebble noise was a nail in the tire, that is not fixed.

 
Rep Power: 518

If you set the wheel on the ground before tightening the big axle nut, the wheel bearing can be damaged. If it got driven without tightening the big nut, the bearing can be trashed in a matter of a few yards of movement. (Don't ask how I know this.)

More likely just a "low-quality remanufactured part". The boot is already leaking grease, right?
$49.95 all day long at the Zone.
"Mediocre" is the new "OK".


Fix the nail, does that take care of the noise?

 
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Axle nut was tighten with the tires off and front end still on jack stands.

The boot was leaking directly out where the boot is crimped right at the knuckle. Tons of grease, all over the brake caliper.

Nope

The sound is coming directly from the center of where the axles are inserted, or that is where it appears from. So I take it it is not the input bearing? Could there be a bad bearing in the center area?

 
Rep Power: 518

Is only one tire spinning when you check this?
You are hearing the side and spider gears in the differential. If both tires are spinning at the exact same speeds, you won't hear the gears inside the differential.
When both wheels are spinning at the exact same speed, the diff gears are stationary within the carrier.
Once there is any difference in wheel speeds, the gears start spinning and you can hear them.

 
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Front end was in the air, on jack stands. Started the car and put the car in drive with the tires off the ground. You can hear a grinding noise/knock from the center section.

I didn't stop one tire to see it it was just one side. However I did start the car and put it in drive with the passenger side axle removed and did not hear the sound.

Also the axle on the passenger side does not rotate in place, it appears to wobble a bit. This is the same side that spit out grease which I could see if it wobbled.

 
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What kind of brand did you use for the axle? Did you smash the new one in with a hammer?

 
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Don't remember the brand, was purchased at Advance Auto Parts. Used a dead blow hammer to seat the new one in.

Uploading a bunch of videos...

 
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Check wheel speeds. Stop the free spinning or the fastest spinning tire and let the other spin. Let go of the first one. Listen to your noise as the difference in tire speeds changes from one side faster to the other side faster. At the point that both are spinning the same speeds, the diff should be pretty quiet, then get noisy again as one tire spins faster again.

No load on the diff gears that way without the axle making the tire spin, probably would be pretty quiet.

The cup of the CV joint can and does move a little bit, it is not rigidly attached in the differential. The splines have a little bit of play.
Still have your old axle? Stick it back in and check it. Could be a mis-machined reman problem. Let's hope.


Did you mean leaking at the seal on the trans? I thought you described an outer CV boot leaking onto the knuckle and caliper.



If you can push the inner CV cup up and down on one side of the trans, and see the opposite axles' inner CV cup move a bunch when you do it, then the diff might have slop in the side bearings. A comparison to a "known good" car would be in order if that is the case (this check only works on cars that have a short axle/long axle setup. Won't work if the drivers side has an intermediate shaft bolted to the engine block)...Could be differential side bearings bad. Usually one of the axle seals is leaking ATF by the time it gets that bad, accompanied by a whining or howling from the trans consistent with road speed, that comes and goes with loading and unloading (accel and coast). Again, compare to a known good car.


I think you may be getting oversensitive and paranoid about your noises. (I hope.)

If you don't hear any of these noises (your complaints) while driving, I probably wouldn't worry about it. Most significant trans bearing and wheel bearing problems can be heard from the passengers compartment while driving the car. Compare to a known good car?

Boy, it is hard to hear what you hear over the interweb.

 
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At the point that both are spinning the same speeds, the diff should be pretty quiet, then get noisy again as one tire spins faster again.

This is exactly what happens

I thought you described an outer CV boot leaking onto the knuckle and caliper.

Yes, leak is from the CV boot leaking onto the knuckle and caliper

 
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On the side of the trans from when you pulled the axle out? If you ran it with the axle out, it may have just splashed out. There IS atf in there, you know. Clean it off and recheck it later on after driving it.


CV boot? Needs another axle....have the parts store warranty it.


At the point that both are spinning the same speeds, the diff should be pretty quiet, then get noisy again as one tire spins faster again.
This is exactly what happens

So it is normal then and you are just paranoid (no offense). Just drive the darn car. Re-read what I said about hearing stuff from inside the passengers area.

Hope that helped.

 
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This is what it sounds like from inside the car starting from the driver side by your feet over to the pass side by the feet.

 
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The following is a video starting from the pass side axle to the driver side then under the car.

At 19sec in the video you will hear what I am referring to

 
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i worked at advance and most of the axles we sold came back in a month or two for warranty. aftermarket quality is not what it used to be and there are certain things you stick with oem parts. like axles.

 
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And a video of the driver side and under the center of the trans with the OEM axle

 
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I was at a visitation this evening, sorry for the delay.

My thoughts so far:

The trans did NOT make this noise before the axle and bearings?
Have you put the car on the ground and driven it yet?
Wait a minute, don't do that yet.....

It is difficult to tell.
I hear the noise, but I can't tell how fast each tire is spinning. I can't tell if it is bearing noise or gear noise. Making sure both wheels are spinning at the exact same speed should eliminate gear noise from the equation.
I also hear what sounds like engine and exhaust noises along with the growl.

Each video only shows one wheel spinning at a time. Are you holding the side I can't see so it is not spinning?

Oooh crap.
Here is something that bothers me a LOT:
In video #3 of 4 on your fotobukit page, starting around :29 and to the end of it -- I can see the inner CV cup on the right (passengers side) axle. I can see a shiny area between the painted cup and the trans, but not clearly. The shiny area looks like it the machined surface where the seal is supposed to ride, like the axle isn't seated in the trans. Or maybe the stub is too long.

Starting at the top, you have the snap ring and splined area that is driven by the differential side gears.
The smooth area that is the same diameter as the splines is supposed to ride in the side bearing area of the diff.
Those 2 together make up the "stub" length (in my mind).....
The larger smooth area is supposed to be buried into the seal on the side of the trans. I mean I think you aren't supposed to see any of it at all when the CV cup is fully seated and the snap ring is locked into the side gear inside the differential.

Houston, that looks like a problem.

Is the snap ring locked in so the axle cup can't pull out easily?

Maybe the axle is completely wrong for the car. Sure wouldn't be the first time that has happened.
Step #1) Did you compare old and new axles side by side before installing? EXACT MATCH? Backpedal now.



If the stub is too long, then the seal on the trans has nothing to seal against on the CV cup. Or not enough area to seal against...

If the overall length of the axle is too long (or is bound up because of the stub being too long), it puts undue pressure sideways on the diff. and puts the CV joints in a bind.

If you remove the big nut from the outer end of the axle, how far can you push the stub inward towards the trans? It should push in about 1/2 inch or so, that gives the inner CV joints room to "plunge" as the drivetrain and suspension moves, so the joints are not "bottomed out".

If the overall length of the axle is too short, it can pop out of the splines in the trans or let the inner joint come apart while driving.
If snap ring isn't seated and the splines pop out or get pulled out because the axle is too short, the shaft can shear off the tip of the splines at the snap ring groove and completely trash the diff and trans case. Seen this before! Not cheap!

 
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First thank you for your time on this issue.

This all started because since I bought the car last December, I have had a slight vibration in the front end and a knock on the passenger side. Had the wheels balanced and still have had the same issue. This summer I end up replacing the driver side ball joint cause it was shot and at the same time I replaced the struts and alignment. Ride was a bit smother but 2 weeks later I was back to a slight rough ride (vibes up front). So 2 weeks ago I FINALLY had time to look at the front end and discovered that the drivers side wheel bearing was shot. So I pulled the knuckle and had the dealership install a new bearing. Put it all back together and still had a slight vibe up front and a pulsation from the trans. On Sat I decided to remove the passenger side knuckle and discovered the wheel bearing was stiff (not 100% it was shot) and had the dealer replace it and the lower ball joint which had some play.

Now after I reassembled everything and took it for a spin, I noticed the grinding noise, which is not as loud now. Took apart the passenger side again and discovered that when rotating the axle by hand, you could hear a grind noise.

Fast forward...

I have quickly driven the car, that is how I noticed the noise. I also noticed the shiny surface when watching the video and was going to check that tomorrow. The other thing that I noticed when watching the video is the angle of the shaft entering the outer CV joint. The passenger side is a much more aggressive angle and it should be because it is the longer shaft.

the reason why only one tire was spinning at a time is because I had stopped the tire from spinning and I believe the drag from the breaks didn't allow it to spin. Also if you try to rotate the tire (driver or pass side) it is not easy to rotate, some resistance (sticking brakes).

I do not have the old shaft, so I can't measure. I do believe I had measured when I purchased the axle.

Something else that I noticed...

When I pulled the axle Sat I noticed that the splines had a blueish color almost if the shaft overheated at one time.

Couple questions...

When you pull the passengers side axle and look into the hole where the shaft is inserted, should there be a cross pin? Similar to a trucks diff cross pin?

Also with the tires spinning off the ground and applying the gas pedal, should the front end vibrate (like the tires out way out of balanced)?

How hard should I knock the axle end in order seat the axle?

Yes, I might be overly nervous at the moment, but my gut feeling is telling me that something is wrong.

 
Rep Power: 518

First thank you for your time on this issue.
YW, I'm trying

This all started because since I bought the car last December, I have had a slight vibration in the front end and a knock on the passenger side. Had the wheels balanced and still have had the same issue. This summer I end up replacing the driver side ball joint cause it was shot and at the same time I replaced the struts and alignment. Ride was a bit smother but 2 weeks later I was back to a slight rough ride (vibes up front). So 2 weeks ago I FINALLY had time to look at the front end and discovered that the drivers side wheel bearing was shot. So I pulled the knuckle and had the dealership install a new bearing. Put it all back together and still had a slight vibe up front and a pulsation from the trans. On Sat I decided to remove the passenger side knuckle and discovered the wheel bearing was stiff (not 100% it was shot) and had the dealer replace it and the lower ball joint which had some play.

Now after I reassembled everything and took it for a spin, I noticed the grinding noise, which is not as loud now. Took apart the passenger side again and discovered that when rotating the axle by hand, you could hear a grind noise.

In my mind: Axles don't grind (unless a CV joint is full of dirt). The CV joint may pop-- and it usually takes significant load to make it pop, but I don't think I ever heard an axle grind. Something that is turned by the axle may grind though.

Fast forward...

I have quickly driven the car, that is how I noticed the noise.

Would you know what ring and pinion whine is if you heard it out on the road? Just curious.

Have you ever had a pro drive the car for an opinion?

In post #14 where I talked about pushing on one axle cup and watching the other one for movement, try that after resolving the current axle issue.

I also noticed the shiny surface

Ok, I'm not imagining that shiny part. Good

when watching the video and was going to check that tomorrow. The other thing that I noticed when watching the video is

the angle of the shaft entering the outer CV joint. The passenger side is a much more aggressive angle and it should be because it is the longer shaft.

You have it backwards--the drivers side shaft is the long one, but the angles you see are normal since the wheels are hanging free.

the reason why only one tire was spinning at a time is because I had stopped the tire from spinning and I believe the drag from the breaks didn't allow it to spin. Also if you try to rotate the tire (driver or pass side) it is not easy to rotate, some resistance (sticking brakes).

That is "average", meaning most disc brakes have some amount of drag. Very few cars let both wheels spin free equally. Especially with some age and rust on the brakes.

In post #15 where you said this: "This is exactly what happens", I thought this eliminated the differential gears (the spiders and side gears) as a possible source of noise. It can't rule out bearings, and if the axle stub is an issue this could all be tossed out the window.

I do not have the old shaft, so I can't measure. I do believe I had measured when I purchased the axle.

Did you compare the stub in question?? Bet you want to now.
*rolls eyes*
Never ever turn in the old parts until the job is 100% done and right.

I have had parts stores open up several packages to compare parts when I think something is mis-boxed. Sometimes the catalog is flat wrong. Many possibilities here.

Something else that I noticed...

When I pulled the axle Sat I noticed that the splines had a blueish color almost if the shaft overheated at one time.

Normal. It's from the heat treating and machining processes.

Couple questions...

When you pull the passengers side axle and look into the hole where the shaft is inserted, should there be a cross pin? Similar to a trucks diff cross pin?

Exact same thing. Yes. You see the cross pin that the spider gears are on.

Hell, measure how deep that is, and measure the stub? Is that stub too long?

Also with the tires spinning off the ground and applying the gas pedal, should the front end vibrate (like the tires out way out of balanced)?

With the tires spinning at less than 25-30 mph, NO! (If there is shaking at very low speed, look for the engine and trans getting pushed side to side at the same time....axle bound up...but I didn't notice that in the videos.)

With the tires spinning at 50 mph plus-- Maybe, depends on the balance.
When you read that, remember this: If one tire is not spinning, the other tire is spinning at DOUBLE what the speedometer says.

So if the speedo says 30 and one tire is still, the other tire is spinning at 60.

If a tire is out of balance, the shake gets worse the faster it spins.

How hard should I knock the axle end in order seat the axle?

You better make darn sure the axle is right first. If that stub is too long you will damage something.

Shouldn't need to be real hard, it just has to go all the way in. You shouldn't have to force it all the way in.
Pull the stub out, spin it so the opening on the snap ring is facing UP.
All the banging on it is to start the snap ring. Once the snap ring closes up and the stub starts moving inward, it should go in with one or two hits for movement, not force. Once it stops moving inward, the snap ring should have locked in place. You should need to snap a prybar to make it come out again.

Make sure the seal hasn't been damaged too.

After all this, you still could be having to deal with bad differential bearings or something. *sigh*

Yes, I might be overly nervous at the moment, but my gut feeling is telling me that something is wrong.


The last post where I said this: "If snap ring isn't seated and the splines pop out or get pulled out because the axle is too short, the shaft can shear off the tip of the splines at the snap ring groove and completely trash the diff and trans case. Seen this before! Not cheap!" This actually happened on a Mitsubishi that got towed to our shop. Another shop had replaced an axle. The axle had apparently been boxed wrong and it was an inch too short. The sheared piece of the splines punched a hole in the trans aluminum case. The shop that installed the wrong axle DID "man up" and eat the cost of the repairs. Kudos to them for ethical and good business practice.

 
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Ok long day, however I was able to look further into this.

- The passenger side axle was seated in all the way, the finished surface was part of the cup.

- Ended up moving up and down one side and the other side didn't move

The following video shows the (driver side) OEM axle cup movement which appears to be very normal




The following video shows the (pass side) non OEM axle cup movement which seems excessive IMO



I believe what is happening is the pass side cup, with excessive up/down movement is rotating not on center causing a odd vibe

Thoughts??

 
Rep Power: 518

- The passenger side axle was seated in all the way, the finished surface was part of the cup.

Ok, that's reassuring.

- Ended up moving up and down one side and the other side didn't move

Did you shove the cup upward hard enough to pick up 30 pounds of weight inside the trans? Just wiggling the cup isn't hard enough to lift the entire differential gear and carrier set inside.

As long as the differential is tight inside the trans case, then the play may acceptable as long as there isn't enough movement to cause it to leak. The play could be because the stub got machined too much, now the shaft is slightly smaller than original. I don't know, I'm just tossing possibilities out. We have called factory reps about this scenario with a leak in a fresh reman trans and what seemed like a lot of cup movement. Rep said replace the seal and don't worry about the movement unless it leaks again. So cup movement can be acceptable.



The one cup looks like it has a bunch more movement than the original one. How much is too much? No real specs, it's a judgement call. As long as the diff is not loose.



Still need to find the noises though. This is stuff I listen for on a road test...maybe not all, but all I can think of at this moment:

Turn off all noisemakers--radio and fan, roll up windows.
Go fast enough that the noise is loud and easily heard.

Turn your head, look out the side window....noise is coming from front or rear?

Noise changes pitch directly related to road speed, not engine speed? Source is somewhere between the trans final drive and the tires.
If it changed with engine speed, source is higher in the trans or engine.

See if you have any control over the noise:

Does the noise come and go as you accelerate and coast, or is the noise there ALL the time the car is moving?

Does the noise change as you swerve hard side to side in your lane?

The answers to these tells me were to check next.





Wheels spinning in the air at whatever speed you were driving:

Stethoscope on the knuckles, listen for wheel bearing noise? Rule out wheel bearings.

If not wheel bearings, then it almost has to be differential. Hope not. Stethoscope on the trans under the axles. Loud?

Use the tool, find the loudest area.

I use a long (up to 3 foot) screwdriver as a stethoscope. Works well enough for me.




Tune in again next week....same Bat-time, same Bat-channel!

 
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Not sure how to explain it, but the sound is gone. Ended up rotating the front tires back to the rear and now the noise is in the rear. That tells me the sound started at the tire, perhaps could of traveled via the components. The slight knocking sound is also gone, went away the last time I was under the car.

Going to get the tires looked at then check things out again.

 
Rep Power: 518

Choppy tread.
But tread doesn't make noise unless it is on the ground. Tread wasn't making noise in the air.

Something caught in a brake maybe, like a piece of gravel?