Rep Power: 0

The car was running great, it just hit 90k and my son wanted to do some preventative maint., so it took it to a shop and had the timing belt and water pump replaced this morning for $300.00. He drove it home (approx 10 miles) and now it wont start. It just cranks and cranks. I was gonna tear into tomorrow since the shop is closed till Tues (Labor Day) weekend, and he really needs it running again by Monday for work.

Here are the details.
Battery is fine. Cranks Strong
Has fuel 1/2 tank or better just dropped $20.00 in it when we left the shop.
Ran fine prior to having the work done.

I was looking for a schrader valve on the fuel rail to check for pressure but couldnt find one, any suggestions?

I will pull a spark plug in the morning to check for spark. They might have not properly connected the crank angle sensor????

I just had the same symptoms on my truck last week and needed to replace the Fuel Pump at 90k. Does the fuel pump go bad on the 01 civics?

What else should a shade tree mechanic do, or look for?

I already checked the fuel pump fuse and it was good. I couldnt hear the buzz or humm when the car broke down but also didnt think to check for that until i read it in the forums.

 
Rep Power: 812

well the buzz means the pump is working. i would look around and make sure they plugged in all the sensors. but then again you should get a check engine light if they forgot one. check plugs, check ground wires. was it running okay on the way home? smooth? make sure theres enough oil in the car (mine was low from the dealer, but my dealer is lousy). check coolant level. just for fun, see if you can test the battery, you never know it could be a little below what it needs to start by some chance and it just happened after getting worked on. they really dont mess with much with timing belt and water pump. just oil, coolant, and some sensors around the area.

 
Rep Power: 453

for the honda you need to buy a fuel pressure tester and put it inline with the fuel hoses leading to the rail. there is no tester on the rail. if you look by the rail, you will see a quick disconnect that you can use.

Also check the connection for the crank position sensor. I noticed when I did my timing belt when you remove the water pump all the water comes down and floods the sensor and connector. it may be wet or corroded.

 
Rep Power: 0

Thanks for the tips, now that there is light I am off to work on it. Can I check teh crank angle sensor without taking anything off?
As for the way it ran it was good on the way home and even feel like it had better throttle response. What I did notice is that the oil light and battery light came on, then it started running rough then it jsut stalled and never would restart. Does anyone know what the regulated fuel pressure should be?
Many, thanks in advance.

 
Rep Power: 812

oil light is bad. the engine might be done if they forgot to fill it up to full and the pressure dropped too low. especially if you say it started running rough, sounds like oil starvation. or if they somehow messed up the oil pump which is very near the timing belt area. did you check the oil level yet? battery light is an alternator problem, but it could be they didnt put the belt on right.have you tried jump starting the car?

 
Rep Power: 453

at this point I would have it towed back to the shop that worked on it. there should be a guarentee on it. Have them look at it because they just got done working on it.

 
Rep Power: 0

I removed the rear seat and disconnected fuel line and there was very good pressure built up.
I put the key in the II position and I could clearly hear three clicks and a brief two second hum.
I disconnected and reconnected all harnesses near the timing belt area and checked to see if there were any signs of wetness. None was evident.
I coulnt check to see if there was spark because my son was at work and I couldnt do it alone. It has a strong crank still.
The strange thing is that after is sat all night and I tried to fire it up in the morning it gave a brief rumble like it wanted to start, but then just went back to a continuous crank.

I checked the fuel pump fuse and it was good. Is there another relay I can chceck for maybe it is not getting good enough pressure. The shop will be closed until tuesday and we both need our cars for work tomorrow. If I go out and buy a new fuel pump is it pretty easy to install? I will check for spark when my son gets out of work today first.

Any other possibilities?

 
Rep Power: 453

I have told numerous people this and I will tell you this, just cause fuel comes out of the lines doesnt mean the pump is good. You need both good pressure and volume for the car to run. you could have lots of fuel come out but it may have only 5 PSI of pressure, not enough for the car to run. Go to any auto parts store and buy a fuel pressure tester. then disconnect the line going to the rail and tee in the tester and crank the car and watch the gauge. should be around I think 30-40 PSI. if you are getting fuel coming out of the line at the rail or at the pump, either one, the relay, fuse are fine. If either were bad, there would be no fuel. wouldnt have power to run the pump.

Dont just buy a new pump. they are around $200-$300. and if the pump isnt the issue and you install this one, you are screwed. its easier top first check to even see if the pump works by purchasing a fuel pressure gauge.

there are only a few things it can be. A ignition issue, most likely the crank sensor. Not all coils will fail at once. a fuel issue. Possibly the pump failed. Or a immobilizer issue. or a compression issue, but that is highly unlikely since you drove the car home after the belt change.

But again I would spend the money on a fuel pressure gauge and check the pressure.

 
Rep Power: 812

is that lil green key icon flashing?

 
Rep Power: 312

^^^^

yer gunna spend the whole day mucking with it.. by the time you get it figured out its going to be dark and everything is closed tomorrow.. either way its not getting done till tuesday and by then yer back at work.. call the shop where you had it worked on and leave them a message.. then make them tow it and fix it.. if you keep messin with stuff that might open a loophole for them and let them pin whatever is wrong on you insted of them..

unless you wanna give up yer weekend fighting with something that you shouldnt have to fix in the first place...

 
Rep Power: 0

I went out and purchased a fuel pressure guage and teed into the fuel line. Looks like 28-30 psig.
Pulled the plug wire off and inserted a long screwdriver into the boot and held it close to the radiator support and the spark is good and strong. Also accidently touched the screwdriver with the index finger (Ouch).
Looks like it all leads back to the timing now. I have exhausted all my options and will now have it towed to the shop on Tuesday. I thank you all for your help and will post a follow up once completed.
Like they always say," If it ain't broke, dont fix it". The shop will get an earfull on Tuesday. My kid 16 y/o saved up for two weeks to get the work done and had to go all weekend without his car.
Also when I got underneeth and looked up it appears that the lower gasket portion is outside of the timing cover plate.

 
Rep Power: 312

good luck

 
Rep Power: 453

well first off the pump pressure is not within spec. it should be between 40-47 PSI according to the manaul. at that pressure I believe the car should run, but run like ****. the manaul says replace the fuel filter and pressure regulator if the spec is below the normal pressure. It could be that either the tester wasnt fully hooked up, or the pump is weak.
As for the timing, its a possiblilty that it jumped timing to the point that its way off, but I think you would have heard some bad engine noises before the engine died if that were the case. I mean you would have heard valves hitting pistons.

As stated above, all you can do now is take it back to the shop. There are more tests that you can do on your own to see if it is valve timing that is fuked up. One is remove the timing belt covers and turn the engine over by hand to see if the timing marks line up. Or you can purchase a compression tester and test the compression of each cylinder. if they are all the same and within spec, timing isnt the issue. But if one cylinder is way off and below spec, you have engine damage.

you said after letting it sit it gave a brief rumble to try and start but wouldnt. Mine did the same thing awhile ago and it was the pump that had failed. mine had volume but wasnt producing pressure. now if you did the tests above and those were fine, I would suspect the pump as the issue.


but I would just wait. The compression tester doesnt cost but about the same as the fuel tester, but dont waiste your money. just let the shop worry about it unless you really want to know the problem. And as stated above, nothing is open tomorrow so getting any parts may be obsolete untill tuesday.

 
Rep Power: 0

Just got a call back from the shop and was told that it was a faulty crank position sensor.
Ouch $158.00 for parts and labor. We'll see how long this repair lasts for. BTW I got to the shop at 8 am and they were supposed to be open at 8. Anyhow after the tow truck dropped it off I waited there for another 45 minutes before somone finally showed up. Now that I have the manual I think I will turning all of my own wrenches. Thanks guys.

 
Rep Power: 812

uh they messed up that sensor! it doesnt magically break right when they do a timing belt change. i sure hope you are not paying that bill for their screw up.

 
Rep Power: 453

if the crank position sensor was faulty, then you wouldnt have gotten any spark when you checked for spark. not sure how you checked for spark, but its good to know what the problem was.

Now its a good possibility that the sensor failed because of the shop. the crank sensor is down right next to the crank pulley. the timing belt has to be removed in order to access the sensor. and again if they replaced the water pump and the fluid got into the sensor, it may of caused it to fail. Its a hard one though to pin on the shop. If it were me, I would try and make them pay.

 
Rep Power: 0

So I get a call from the shop at around 4:00pm and he tells me that they got the new sensor in from the dealer and installed it and the car still won't start. He told me that its got to be a faulty sensor and he is going to keep my car overnight and get a new sensor in the morning. He said the crank and cam were not working in sync and that is why the car doesn't start. He told me if he puts in the new sensor and if it still doesn't work I will not have to pay for it.

I don't get it, if there is spark the car has fuel and fuel pressure and the timing is correct, why does it not fire up. I am begining to lose patience and time from work as I now have to taxi everyone around and miss work.

 
Rep Power: 812

thats strange. ive forgotten to plug my sensor in and the car still started. engine light was on right away so i turned it off and plugged it back. hopefully he finds the cause.

 
Rep Power: 453

that shop sounds retarted. Make sure they even changed the timing belt. its possible, but unlikely a new sensor was faulty. for one, the shop should know how to diagnosis a no start condition. second, he can test the sensor he just ordered. He can check the resistance of the sensor and compare it with specs. He can also crank over the engine and check for AC voltage output from the sensor. If I were you I would take your car to a new shop. Or ask what the readings were from the sensor they ordered.

Now there are 4 things you need for the car to start and run. Assuming the battery and starter are funtioning properly. You need fuel, air, spark and compression. more then likely you have air. now you checked the fuel pressure and it was 10 PSI below spec. again that shouldnt cause the no start, if anything the car would run like crap. now you need something to light the fuel. Either the shop doesnt know what is the issue, or you didnt actually have spark to begin with. Not sure. the last is compression. If that belt slipped and you bent valves, you wont be starting.

Not sure what advice to give you other then ask the shop how they came to the conclusion that the crank sensor was faulty. Now if they install a new one and it works, then I will be suprised.

 
Rep Power: 0

Low and behold I got a call yesterday around noon and was told that they replaced the crank sensor with a second unit and now the car fires right up. This is what I was told.

 
Rep Power: 812

wow finally!

 
Rep Power: 0

just thought i should add that this information is incorrect...... a CKP sensor sends a square wave signal to the ECM, meaning that using a volt meter set on AC volts wont give you and accurate reading. using a pulse width or frequency setting is the way to go.

 
Rep Power: 453

I agree that using a meter wont give acurate readings, but using an osciliscope would. And depending on wether the sensor is a magnetic pickup or hall effect will determine its output. Most crank sensors I have worked on have been a magnetic pickup. And the voltage output from it will oscilate between positive and negative.

EDIT: I just noticed that the sensor on honda is a 3 wire sensor so it is a hall effect.

 
Rep Power: 0

Might I have the same problem?? The thing with my 93 Si is that I have no spark, and the fuel pump doesnt turn on... Its not the ECU as I replaced that, and its not the EFI-Relay. It has checked good. Ive been lost on this one ... Is it sounding like it may be a CPS ? Even know the fuel pump doesnt kick on when I turn the key?? I have tested the fuel pump, and it is good also...