Rep Power: 0

2001 D17A
I had to replace my head with a remanufactured one. I have a JDM block, but the head is U.S. I got it all put together, new Asin timing belt, tensioner, and water pump. Started up fine, sounds good, save for one noisy valve that I didnt get lashed just right. However, as I haven't used a remanufactured head before I neglected to put in the cam seal as I assumed they would have done so when rebuilding. I'm hemorrhaging oil. Should have known better as I had to put in the plug on the other side, however I am apparently stupid...

So, I strip it back down to address the seal and the valve lash. When came to timing though, the belt was super hard to get on. Had to either use the spring to tighten it after the belt was on, or pull on the clip on the tensioner to get enough slack to get the belt on. These methods of course often pulled the crank sprocket out of time. Very frustrating.

Anyway, I get the belt on with both sprockets in time, do a full turn on the cam, and the marks on the cam are off by about half a tooth with the crank at TDC.

I do this many, many, many more times. Every time it's off by a half tooth. Even when I attempted to off set it to compensate, still same outcome. I counted the teeth on the belt, tried the old tensioner, loosening the cam sprocket a little, and tried doing 5 or 6 full cam turns to see if it would work itself out. Nothing worked.

I figure maybe it's close enough, and I put it back together and attempt turning it over. Won't start, but sounds like it's trying to. I do a compression test and I am getting 120,120,115,115.

Now it's stripped down again and I still can't get the belt on with just the pin in the tensioner and the cam marks are still a half tooth off. I have done timing on this engine no less than 5 times and I've never had a issue. It went fine the first time I did it here. I'm out of ideas and looking for suggestions as to what the malfunction is here. Thank you in advance.


Firt photo is timing right and second is what happens after a full turn on the cam.

 
Rep Power: 367

cam 1 turn is crank 2 turns
are you accounting for that?
also, you need to put one piston at TDC and use that as reference, are you doing it?

 
Rep Power: 0

Yes, I turn the crank 2 times for 1 cam turn. Just used the cam turn in the post because that's the one that's off with the crank at TDC after the turn.

Yes, I start out with piston 1 at TDC as indicated by the arrow on the oil pump and the notch on the crank sprocket and the cam sprocket at TDC as indicated by the up arrow and the notches on the sides. I also eye balled it when the head was off to ensure the arrow, notch, and piston all line up. I marked a screw driver, which I put into the spark plug holes so that I could verify each pistons position when I lashed the valves.

It's after the 2 crank/1 cam turn that the cam sproket is out of time. Regardless of how many turns or offset, it still comes out in the position in the second photo. I've started it with the cam sprocket almost a full tooth off and the crank at TDC, as well as both perfectly timed and it still comes out in the same position as photo 2. It's bizarre.

 
Rep Power: 367

check the camshaft sprocket key, have seen one case the key was sheared

 
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Cam key is good and there is no wiggle in the sprocket. It's very tight. That's why I thought to loosen it from 27 foot pounds just to see if maybe it was too tight.

A thought I just had is the cam sprocket is off a JDM Vtech head and the new head is U.S. non VTech. Could that be a issue? I got a great deal on the engine, but the car didn't come with a VTech, and I never got around to hooking it up. It's just a work car and I just needed it to run, lol.

 
Rep Power: 224

Maybe it's just me, or the pictures aren't doing it justice, but it looks like it's in time to me. There should be a mark on both sides of the cam sprocket, get them both lined up with the head as close as you can. Then send a picture of the mark on the crank/block.

 
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Zoom in on the pictures until you can see the notches. In the first one it's lined up right on the block and the second it's off. I probably should have done a better job with the pics. I used the inside notches cause it's easier to see the difference, cause it's not a lot. However it seems to be enough to keep it from starting. I'll try to get some better pictures later when I get home.

 
Rep Power: 367

honestly? 1/2 tooth is not enough to stop an engine to start, something else is at play

 
Rep Power: 0

I checked all the electrical connections, and checked fuses and relays, it didnt throw any codes. It ran fine the first time with the new head, save for the lack of the cam seal and the loose lash on one of the valves.

Any ideas on what would cause it not to start and the low compression other than timing?

 
Rep Power: 0

Here are the before pictures. The arrow on the crank is a bit tough to see.






....and these are after a full cam turn. Again, tough to see the crank arrow.

 
Rep Power: 224

I think it's in time. Nothing in the pictures convinces me otherwise. Although, some of the angles are difficult to tell if the marks are lined up.

Some good news, you just figured out why it won't start. Your crankshaft timing belt sprocket is missing a tooth for the crankshaft position sensor. Unless there is some weird shadows going on that's preventing me from seeing it.

 
Rep Power: 0

Well, thank you for that. I didn't even notice. I'm a little unsure how or when that happened. Does it only throw the crank code if that happens while it's running? I ask wondering if I should change the sensor sense it threw no codes when trying to turn it over.

That said, the notches being off as they are in the pictures is something I've never encountered before. Usually when I do this they come up exactly where they started. I get the car will probably run once that sprocket is fixed, but why are they coming up that way?

Thanks again, as this has been driving me insane.

 
Rep Power: 224

The tooth must have broken off sometime during the second tear down. Fault wouldn't come active unless the engine was running, I doubt you'd see anything while cranking.

I'm still not understanding the half tooth thing. Are you turning the engine over counter-clockwise from the crankshaft? When you redid the belt, did you go through the full install procedure for the tensioner? I don't remember the full details for the tensioner. Something like install the tensioner, torque bolt, back off bolt half turn, install spring, torque bolt again.

 
Rep Power: 367

wow, this is only 2nd time i see it

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...-change-2.html

 
Rep Power: 367

about the sensor, it seen that many tend to fail after a timing belt/head gasket change, so be prepared to get new ones

 
Rep Power: 0

Yes, counter-clockwise always.

As for the tensioner I always go:
- hand tight
- put spring on
- set time on crank and cam
- put belt on
- turn crank 2 times
- check timing marks
- pull the pin and torque bolt if timing right
- turn crank 2 times, if timing marks right call it a day.
However durning this mess I tried it many different ways and they all came up the same.

I went and got a sprocket from the junkyard, and a new belt and cam seal. Thinking perhaps something was not right with the first belt, or perhaps I had damaged it with all the on and off. I got the seal just because that was the only new part since the last time it started. Though I was pretty sure it couldn't cause the issue. However, I'm still getting the same result. So, I decided to just put it back together and see what happens. Nature decided today was not my day and started to rain on me, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow.

 
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Yeah, I've never seen it, lol. Didn't even occur to me to look. Never even took it off during the strip down so I guess I must have dropped something on it, or it was just ready to go and snapped off when putting the belt on, I don't know.

As for the sensor I have a couple backups (I always snag a few from the junkyard when ever I see them). So, I switched it out.

 
Rep Power: 224

For reference, here is the tensioner installation steps from the service manual:

1. Align the holes and insert the "grenade pin" into the tensioner (if not already installed).
2. Install the spring onto the tensioner.
3. Install the tensioner onto the block. Torque the bolt to 7.2 lb/ft, then loosen the bolt 180°. Don't install the spring to the block yet.
4. Install the timing belt in a counter-clockwise sequence, starting with the crankshaft.
5. Install the tensioner spring to the block.
6. Rotate the crankshaft two turns counter-clockwise, then back to TDC.
7. Torque the tensioner bolt to 33 lb/ft.
8. Remove the "grenade pin".

 
Rep Power: 0

Just got back from test drive and all seems fine. Still no idea why those marks keep coming up the way they do. Not hearing any bad sounds, and motor seems strong so I'm just going to go with it.

Thanks for the help! Not sure how long it would have taken me to notice that missing tooth on the sprocket.

 
Rep Power: 367

glad it is now running!