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I'm starting this thread to help me keep track of things as I take on this job...
Diagnosis
1. Oil leakage at area near front driver's side (onto exhaust manifold and behind alternator area)
2. Slight coolant loss every few hundred miles (reservoir always needs to be topped off)
3. Gurgling sound from heater core at every cold startup
4. Temp gauge needle constantly fluctuating between slightly above 1/2 and slightly below
I will not be replacing the timing belt or water pump at this time. Timing belt and tensioner are 20K miles old, and the water pump is 40K miles old.
There is leakage all around the oil pump housing. I believe this happened when I last re-sealed it. I used the Fel-pro RTV silicone sealant that came in the oil pump seal kit. No good. The oil pan has to come off to access the pump. Everything needs to be cleaned spotless and re-sealed using Permatex Ultra Black. I have used the Ultra Black many times with great results as long as I follow the instructions.
I have purchased ALL new OEM seals and gaskets. I went overboard to ensure I have everything I need. The only seal I omitted is the crank seal since I last used an Aisin and it should be good still.
I also purchased new intake and exhaust manifold studs, nuts, and bolts. I may not need them, but I want to have them in case one breaks.
Additionally, I am replacing the radiator (aftermarket Denso), thermostat, and radiator cap. The coolant is only about 3 years old so it will be filtered and re-used.
I bought the large 19mm crank bolt socket to use with my corded impact. I'll get to see how well that combination works. I'd like to avoid having to use the 4' cheater pipe setup, but I'm prepared either way. I'm optimistic I can just zip that bolt off this time.
I need to remember to adjust valve clearances before re-installing the head. I have a small set of feeler gauges I haven't used for years, so here's my chance.
All instructions and pictures to be used will be found here and from alldatadiy.com.
I have about 10 days to do everything before I start working again. I'm optimistic that'll be plenty of time.
There is an O-ring between the oil pump and the block, that is a common oil leak spot. If you're taking the oil pump off, replace that seal.
Right, that's why I removed the oil pump the first time. I replaced the seal with the Felpro o-ring and re-sealed it using the RTV silicone that came in the kit. I'll be replacing it again, but with a Honda o-ring instead. Then I'll re-seal the pump using the Permatex Ultra Black.
DAY 1
1. Sweep out and organize garage to make room for everything.
2. Organize all recently purchased new tools in drawers
3. Come up with plan on where to put everything as it's disassembled (tools, parts, hardware)
Specification is minimum 135 psi with maximum 28 psi variance. Cylinder #3 is just barely in spec (variation). I'm assuming cyl #3 is where the head gasket is leaking into the cooling system. We'll see if that's true.
Overall, good compression numbers. This engine should be worth the time and money.
DAY 2
1. Disassembly, disassembly, disassembly
- put hardware in bags and label them
I have most of everything disassembled. I still need to remove the intake manifold and then OFF WITH THE HEAD!
NOTES:
1. Removing the PCM/FI relay took some time. Turns out the relay is held in place by tabs on either side. The tabs must be spread out before pulling the relay out. I may have missed that in the how-to thread. I gouged up the relay with the pliers trying to pull it out.
2. The valve cover gasket I installed last time I had the cover off did not seal well at all. It was leaking almost all the way around. I'm not sure what happened there. Bad gasket (Mahle)? Incorrect torque?
3. A corded impact wrench and the heavy duty 19mm Honda crank bolt socket made short work of the crank bolt. I had it off in 2 seconds
4. Most of the leaking oil is all behind where the alternator mounts and down behind the A/C compressor. But there is oil residue on the firewall side of the engine also. What is that leak source? I'm still unsure if the oil pump housing is the cause since the timing belt is still on.
2. The valve cover gasket I installed last time I had the cover off did not seal well at all. It was leaking almost all the way around. I'm not sure what happened there. Bad gasket (Mahle)? Incorrect torque?
Could be a combination of both. Hondabond or equivalent is also supposed to be used in some spots, not sure if that was done.
Originally Posted by bachands
3. A corded impact wrench and the heavy duty 19mm Honda crank bolt socket made short work of the crank bolt. I had it off in 2 seconds
What torque rating does your impact have? Is that one of the big weighted sockets?
Originally Posted by bachands
4. Most of the leaking oil is all behind where the alternator mounts and down behind the A/C compressor. But there is oil residue on the firewall side of the engine also. What is that leak source? I'm still unsure if the oil pump housing is the cause since the timing belt is still on.
Oil that high up is going to be valve cover gasket or maybe the camshaft seal. It's going to be impossible to tell if oil is leaking further down because of that. While you're there I would definitely recommend dropping the oil pan, removing the oil pump, and replacing the crankshaft seal as well as the rubber O-ring between it and the block. Not much more work while the belt is removed and would save you lots of work in the future.
Could be a combination of both. Hondabond or equivalent is also supposed to be used in some spots, not sure if that was done.
What torque rating does your impact have? Is that one of the big weighted sockets?
Oil that high up is going to be valve cover gasket or maybe the camshaft seal. It's going to be impossible to tell if oil is leaking further down because of that. While you're there I would definitely recommend dropping the oil pan, removing the oil pump, and replacing the crankshaft seal as well as the rubber O-ring between it and the block. Not much more work while the belt is removed and would save you lots of work in the future.
I used sealant (Ultra Black) at the corners for the valve cover gasket. The leaking, however, was along the long edges (front of car and firewall sides). I do not think all that oil in the pic is coming from the valve cover though. Besides, that oil was pooling there a little bit a couple years ago when the valve cover gasket was replaced. The valve cover gasket wasn't leaking then.
The impact wrench in the pic has a torque rating of 450 ft-lbs. I don't think that's breakaway torque...maybe it's working torque. And yes, that is a large, weighted socket. The P/N is CTA-1065. I purchased it at jbtools.com for about $25 shipped.
My plan was to remove the oil pump again (I did this two years ago) and re-seal it. I have the new o-ring from Honda coming. But it really is hard to tell if there is leaking at the cam seal, crank seal, or oil pump housing. Everything behind the timing belt covers looks clean and dry. I'll have time to REALLY look at everything before the head goes back on. Hopefully I can seal everything right this time.
I used sealant (Ultra Black) at the corners for the valve cover gasket. The leaking, however, was along the long edges (front of car and firewall sides). I do not think all that oil in the pic is coming from the valve cover though. Besides, that oil was pooling there a little bit a couple years ago when the valve cover gasket was replaced. The valve cover gasket wasn't leaking then.
If it's clean under the upper timing belt cover then that rules out the camshaft seal. Maybe it wasn't the valve cover gasket leaking but the only other option would be head gasket and I have never seen a head gasket leak oil. Maybe it's just remnants from spilled oil? Or maybe it's actually power steering fluid?
I would definitely recommend a valve cover gasket from Honda. Also, follow the torque spec in the service manual. I haven't had issues getting one to seal doing this.
Originally Posted by bachands
The impact wrench in the pic has a torque rating of 450 ft-lbs. I don't think that's breakaway torque...maybe it's working torque. And yes, that is a large, weighted socket. The P/N is CTA-1065. I purchased it at jbtools.com for about $25 shipped.
Nice. I tried my Milwaukee impact rated for 1400 ft lbs on my friends Civic, it would not break it loose. That was when using a regular impact rated socket though. I'm going to have to get one of these weighted sockets.
If it's clean under the upper timing belt cover then that rules out the camshaft seal. Maybe it wasn't the valve cover gasket leaking but the only other option would be head gasket and I have never seen a head gasket leak oil. Maybe it's just remnants from spilled oil? Or maybe it's actually power steering fluid?
I would definitely recommend a valve cover gasket from Honda. Also, follow the torque spec in the service manual. I haven't had issues getting one to seal doing this.
Yeah, I'm doubting the cam seal as a leak source. But I'm going to be removing the camshaft to bring the head to a machine shop, so it'll be replaced anyway (genuine Honda seal).
The leaking valve cover gasket was Mahle brand. Maybe it was no bueno. I'll be using the genuine Honda gasket this time. However, there was NO leakage inside the spark plug tubes, so I'll just re-use those seals. They're a pain to replace anyway.
Originally Posted by BrotatoChip
Nice. I tried my Milwaukee impact rated for 1400 ft lbs on my friends Civic, it would not break it loose. That was when using a regular impact rated socket though. I'm going to have to get one of these weighted sockets.
Yeah, that beefy 2 lb socket really makes a difference. I was ECSTATIC at how easy it came out compared to last time. The CTA-1065 model is well made. TOTALLY worth the money
hopefully your camshaft/crankshaft sensors will work after the change, like the other thread timing belt
maybe we should add this to the timing belt guide...
It turns out I was wrong. The cam seal was leaking for sure. The scratch that i tried to fill in with JB Weld and sand down was bigger than I thought. I don't think there's anyway to fix it. Can a machine shop ground it down and then put a sleeve on it? I really don't know.
I can get a used camshaft off eBay for $112. Then with the $200 machine shop bill, I'm looking at over $300. At that point I might as well save a 100+ mile round trip to the machine shop and get a reman shipped to me. I can just clean everything while I'm waiting. What's a good place to buy a reman cylinder head? I'm sure this has been asked before.
And once again I have a bad timing belt tensioner. This is the 2nd time. There was this syrup-like substance that appeared to come out the back of the tensioner and gob up on the water pump edge. Really weird. Looks like I need another new belt tensioner.
And once again I have a bad timing belt tensioner. This is the 2nd time. There was this syrup-like substance that appeared to come out the back of the tensioner and gob up on the water pump edge. Really weird. Looks like I need another new belt tensioner.
Well I feel dumb! I have had a misunderstanding about how these Honda timing belt tensioners work. There is nothing wrong with my tensioner. And there was nothing wrong with my old one.
The alignment holes are only needed when the spring is attached. If the spring is not attached, then the pulley has no tension on its own. DUH
I'm used to the tensioners that have an internal coil spring....
I've got everything disassembled. I'm currently debating if I should keep my current cylinder head and have the machine shop take care of the camshaft (or replace it) or if I should just order a reman cylinder head. I have to talk to people at the machine shop to see what my best option is.
In the meantime....
DAY 3
1. Replace radiator
2. Replace throttle cable
If time and energy permit,
3. Remove inner and outer tie rods
Is a reman head going to come with a camshaft? No idea on price but I imagine this will run you significantly more than $300 and a 100 mile trip. I would be finding a local junkyard and grab a camshaft.
Is a reman head going to come with a camshaft? No idea on price but I imagine this will run you significantly more than $300 and a 100 mile trip. I would be finding a local junkyard and grab a camshaft.
Local salvage yards around here either don't have the camshaft I need or they only sell the entire engine or cylinder head. But I brought everything to the machine shop nearest me and they are going to try to find one for me. Maybe they can sand the original camshaft down and sleeve it. We'll see...
At this point I have the new radiator and throttle cable installed. It didn't go as smooth as I wanted it to go, but it's done. The two upper radiator bracket bolts sheared off. So I had to drill those out, tap them, and get new hardware. I bent quite a lot of fins trying to get the new radiator back in. No major damage, but more than I was hoping for. Not the greatest design by Honda in terms of serviceability (in my opinion).
The cylinder head and camshaft are currently at the machine shop. I gave them all the new valve seals if they need to use them. The guy there looked at the head surface and said, "This has already been machined. Honda head surfaces don't look like this." What?! I didn't expect that response!
DAY 4
1. Clean all oil pump and oil pan sealing surfaces. Install oil pump.
- still waiting on oil pickup/strainer gasket from Honda
2. Replace PCV valve
3. Remove inner and outer tie rod ends
Last edited by bachands; May 3, 2021 at 07:51 PM.
Reason: Added info
Oil pump with new Honda o-ring is installed. I have a lot of the old RTV cleaned off, but I need to do a final pass before installation.
The inner and outer tie rod ends are both removed. I don't know if they were original or not, but they were still in pretty decent shape. There was no play in any of the joints, but the outer ends felt like the grease was gone. The new Moog tie rods came in yesterday.
The gasket for the oil strainer should be here today or tomorrow.
DAY 5
1. Clean pistons and bottom end (use brakeleen for bottom end)
- I used Berryman's B12 to soak the piston tops, so it probably all drained down. Just needs cleaning before oil pan goes on
2. Clean oil strainer and oil pan sealing surfaces. Clean oil pan bolts.
3. Install the oil strainer with the new gasket
4. Install oil pan
5. Install tie rods while waiting for RTV to cure
6. Torque oil pan fasteners
7. Install trans gear selector cable, covers, and stiffener brackets
Got the oil strainer, oil pan, and tie rod ends installed. All went fairly smoothly. I may need an alignment after all this, but I'll probably forget and wonder why my steering is off.
I'm still waiting for the machine shop to call me. They said they could get the head done in a day, but the speedi-sleeve they ordered for the camshaft had to be ordered. Maybe they'll call me Monday.
Until then, I'll be cleaning everything and installing new seals/o-rings in preparation for re-assembly. I have to remember to oil the cylinders before putting the head back on...the Berryman's B12 probably cleaned out all the lubrication.
I have the block surface cleaned...hopefully it is flat enough for good mating of the head gasket. I sucked out, checked, and blew out all the bolt holes. I threaded a head bolt in each hole two or three times...all were smooth. All the carbon build-up in the cylinders and on piston heads are cleaned also. The cylinders are oiled.
Coolant drain plug is torqued down, new oil filter installed, and heater pipe installed with new o-rings. I'm hoping it'll be obvious where everything goes when the head gets installed.
DAYS 6 & 7
1. Clean all sealing surfaces in preparation for installation
- lifter assembly bottoms, intake manifold, water passage, V-TEC solenoid, throttle body, exhaust manifold, valve cover
2. Install new o-rings on fuel injectors
I plan to install the intake manifold to the head before installing the head. I think this will work...we'll see. I also need to adjust all the valve clearances.
Last edited by bachands; May 16, 2021 at 09:20 AM.
i removed the head/reinstalled it with the intake.
just remember it is made of plastic.
removing some of the rubber hoses was a PITA, but it really do come out and in. I removed the intake after the head was off.
make sure to tighten the knock sensor before you install the head back... I forgot to do this...
Installing the IM on the head is loads easier than trying to finagle that summabitch on with the head attached to the block. Some of those nuts/bolts are stupid hard to get on otherwise.
i removed the head/reinstalled it with the intake.
just remember it is made of plastic.
removing some of the rubber hoses was a PITA, but it really do come out and in. I removed the intake after the head was off.
make sure to tighten the knock sensor before you install the head back... I forgot to do this...
Knock sensor is in place with bolt tightened and wiring routed. Thanks for the heads up!
Originally Posted by xRiCeBoYx
Installing the IM on the head is loads easier than trying to finagle that summabitch on with the head attached to the block. Some of those nuts/bolts are stupid hard to get on otherwise.
I've been thinking about this in regards to head installation. If I install the I.M. on the head before putting the head on the block, I will need to connect the brake booster and PCV valve hoses on the I.M. before setting it in place. Those hoses are really difficult to get to once the I.M. is installed. But that shouldn't be too bad if my friend helps me put it in place.
After the head is in place, I think it's all downhill from there (in terms of difficulty).
PROGRESS...
At this point I am just waiting for the machine shop to call me back so I can go pick up the head and camshaft. Everything is pretty much clean and ready to install. I just have to install the new fuel injector o-rings.
The I.M. gasket should be easy to see which way it installs, but what about the exhaust manifold gasket? It looks like it may be the same on both sides.
Machine shop ordered the wrong size speedi-sleeve and told me it'll be a week before another one comes in. I can't wait that long. I need this done by the end of the week. So, I decided to buy an entire cylinder head from a local salvage yard...have it shipped to me. Hopefully the camshaft is in good condition since that's all I really need. I may need a couple alignment dowels for the rocker assembly since I seem to have misplaced a couple.
At least the cylinder head is cleaned and ready to go. They really didn't do anything except clean it since no problems were found.
I'll have to transfer the used camshaft, install the rocker assemblies, adjust valve clearances, install seals, and install the cover, sprocket, and cam sensor. Oh yeah...the I.M. too.
QUESTION:
Would it be easier to install the cam sprocket before or after installing the head to the block? I'm thinking I should install it AFTER as it may get in the way of the A/C line when trying to install the head.
Thanks for the responses. I'll go ahead and install the cam gear and see how it goes.
I think I'll install the fuel rail also. I believe I only removed it to access the lower fasteners holding the I.M. on the head (I removed the I.M before removing the head). If I already have the I.M. attached to the head, then I think the fuel rail can go on too.
