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Mechanical Problems/Vehicle Issues and Fix-it ForumIf you've got a problem you just can't figure out, a noise you can't diagnose, or a Check Engine Light that won't go away, ask about it here!
Recently, got new tires and went for alignment but was told they could not do it because both inner tie rods need to be replaced; I plan on doing outers, while down there. Shop also said I need DS axle, which I can hear clank, when I turn. That said, and I don't know if it's related to the tie-rods and/or axle but I also hear a loud humming noise, as I accelerate along with occasional sounds of metal scraping, in circular motion. I don't hear, in idle, it gets louder as I accelerate but disappears, when I turn left.
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Re: Replaceing inner & outer tie rods 96 civic ex
Boot tears, grease leaks out, part wears out. Might as well plan on replacing the inner tie rod as well. To check inner tie rod..once the outer is removed grab the inner tie rod shaft and move it in multiple directions..it should move but not easily. If it moves easily or sags down after you let go of it, it's worn out and needs to be replaced.
Advisable (but not mandatory) to replace both sides left and right inner and outer rods at the same time. Conventional thinking is: If one side is worn it won't be long until the other side is worn out. Ties rods and boots are inexpensive and in-addition to the service manual there's many youtubes and DIY write-ups on how to replace them.
As far as the CV axle: Find an empty parking lot and do full lock-left and right turns (donuts)..listen for clicking and/or knocking during turns. If knocking or clicking replace offending axle(s)
The rotational scraping you are hearing is most likely the front brakes dust cover. The dust cover is directly behind the brake disc and can get bent forward causing it to scrape the brake rotor. Easy fix..just bend the dust cover back where it's contacting the brake rotor.
Last edited by Wankenstein; Dec 12, 2017 at 08:27 AM.
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Re: Replaceing inner & outer tie rods 96 civic ex
for how cheap a new axle is you might as well get a new one, and the nut.
Like Megalodong said best to both sides at once for the inner and outer tie rods
Thanks!
To clarify, because my thread Title doesn't, I plan on replacing inner & outer tie rods on both sides. In which case, some have suggested to go ahead and replace the steering rack, which includes both sides. That said, my main concern here is diagnosing the loud humming noise, while accelerating that disappears, when I turn left as well as the rotational metal scraping noise and whether or not they're related to the tie-rods and/or axle. Some have suggested these could be wheel bearings and/or hub.
Thoughts?
Last edited by g4384063; Dec 14, 2017 at 11:29 AM.
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Re: Replaceing inner & outer tie rods 96 civic ex
Originally Posted by g4384063
In which case, some have suggested to go ahead and replace the steering rack, which includes both sides.
Is there an issue with the steering rack? Any power steering fluid leaking from the rack? Replacing the rack can be tedious and time consuming. Start with replacing all tie rods first unless there's a known issue with the rack itself.
Originally Posted by g4384063
That said, my main concern here is diagnosing the loud humming noise, while accelerating that disappears, when I turn left as well as the rotational metal scraping noise and whether or not they're related to the tie-rods and/or axle. Some have suggested these could be wheel bearings and/or hub. Thoughts?
Some how I missed the "humming noise" you mentioned in the first post.
Please make a video of the noise, post it on youtube and then link it here.
Does the noise also occur when decelerating? Does it the noise emit from the front or rear?
Diagnosing a wheel bearing includes:
* Driving in a slalom pattern and listening noting when sound occurs.
* Raising either the front or rear of car on jackstands, grab the a tire with both hands at the 3 & 9 (clock) and 6 & 12 positions, rock tire back and forth and feel/listen for loose, unwanted movement Also when the rear is raised spin the tire by hand and listen for abnormal noise/humming. An auto-stethoscope or piece of PVC pipe against the axle and your ear can help amplify any noises
* Raise front of car on jackstands, parking brake engaged,chocks under rear wheel to prevent forward movement, have a helper turn the engine on, with brake pedal depressed, put the car in gear, slowly let off the brake pedal (Keep parking brake engaged) and you listen for humming noise from the offending axle/hub. As show in video:
Here's a video on slaloming and 3/9 + 6/12 testing. Just a side note: The shortest guy in the video based on size and accent has a real future in Nascar driving..lol
Is there an issue with the steering rack? Any power steering fluid leaking from the rack? Replacing the rack can be tedious and time consuming. Start with replacing all tie rods first unless there's a known issue with the rack itself.
Some how I missed the "humming noise" you mentioned in the first post.
Please make a video of the noise, post it on youtube and then link it here.
Does the noise also occur when decelerating? Does it the noise emit from the front or rear?
Diagnosing a wheel bearing includes:
* Driving in a slalom pattern and listening noting when sound occurs.
* Raising either the front or rear of car on jackstands, grab the a tire with both hands at the 3 & 9 (clock) and 6 & 12 positions, rock tire back and forth and feel/listen for loose, unwanted movement Also when the rear is raised spin the tire by hand and listen for abnormal noise/humming. An auto-stethoscope or piece of PVC pipe against the axle and your ear can help amplify any noises
* Raise front of car on jackstands, parking brake engaged,chocks under rear wheel to prevent forward movement, have a helper turn the engine on, with brake pedal depressed, put the car in gear, slowly let off the brake pedal (Keep parking brake engaged) and you listen for humming noise from the offending axle/hub. As show in video:
Here's a video on slaloming and 3/9 + 6/12 testing. Just a side note: The shortest guy in the video based on size and accent has a real future in Nascar driving..lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NTX1-NctEg
Thanks!
No issue with the rack itself, that I'm aware of and not sure, how or where to check, if power steering fluid leaking.
The humming noise decreases, when decelerating. I made video of front raised and hand spinning tires, on both sides but not interested in creating account to upload to YT. Only real difference I could tell was he rotating metal scraping sound was on DS only.
The humming noise emits from the front and when driving in a slalom pattern, it goes away, when I turn left. I'll have to double check about the rotating metal scraping sound.
Not comfortable with and no helper to help with Eric's "Rather precarious" test, as shown in video but next time I have the car on stands, I'll try the ole' 3 & 9 (clock) and 6 & 12 positions, rocking the tire back and forth.
Does power steering fluid disappear? Do you ever have to fill it? If no, and the fluid is at the correct level, then it's not leaking.
Probably a bad wheel bearing.
Thanks!
I don't think Power steering fluid is disappearing, although I have had to top it off in the past. That said, I hadn't checked in WAY TOO LONG. It was just below the LOW line so I added some Honda PS fluid, to bring up..Will keep an eye on.
As for noises, when slaloming;
Humming goes away, when I turn left and decelerate.
Rotating metal scraping gets louder, when I turn left.
Hope to raise the car this week and do 3 & 9 (clock) and 6 & 12 positions, rocking the tires back and forth test.
As for bad wheel bearing, after watching a few videos and speaking to a friend with more knowledge and tools, he suggested, if bad wheel bearing, it might be easier to go ahead and replace the hub...Thoughts?
Last edited by g4384063; Dec 20, 2017 at 07:13 AM.
From what you all have seen, in my pics and based on my description of noises, how comfortable would you be driving this car another 500 highway miles?
the humming noise is quite likely the wheel bearings.
when you lift and do the test, if there is too much play, I would do as soon as possible. while humming, they should still last some time, but don't abuse.
the humming noise is quite likely the wheel bearings.
when you lift and do the test, if there is too much play, I would do as soon as possible. while humming, they should still last some time, but don't abuse.
Thanks!
Did the 3 & 9 (clock) and 6 & 12 positions, rocking the tires back and forth test... 3 & 9: Each side had about 1/2" play. 6 & 12: DS 1/4" play, PS Little to no noticeable play
FWIW: Took better look at PS rack and do not see leak, PS fluid no change.
Last edited by g4384063; Dec 24, 2017 at 02:46 PM.
3 & 9 could be the tie rods, 6 & 12 bearings or ball joints, but since humming, I would point to bearings. when changing the bearings, you will need to remove the ball joint, i think, so you can inspect it too, or use a prybar now to check if too much movement on ball joint
not sure, but if bearings pressed in, you will need a press or someone that have a press. (that how it is in my 7th gen, not sure on the 6th.
FWIW: Decided to play it safe and not take the 500 highway mile road trip. That said, I'm in agreement that the noises are related to wheel bearing and/or hub and in either case, replacing hub. Now, attempting to rule out PS rack issue or not. Here are some more pics of what I believe are rack and inner TR boots, where they meet rack.
Thoughts?
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Re: Replaceing inner & outer tie rods 96 civic ex
Boot split wide open, yes replace it (both?)
You'll need new clamps for the large end of each boot....I'm not sure if you need the wire coil for the small ends or not.
If you're trying to judge leakage...... How much fluid have you had to add to the PS (total amount) in how many years and miles?
Any fluid loss that didn't leak externally went into those two boots....and there will be like 22 years worth of normal seepage...but is it losing fluid at a rapid pace?
Will it leak a lot in the near future?
Does it WORK right now?
Do you want to risk a cheapo parts store reman rack?
We can't really judge how bad the wheel bearing noise is...... No way to know how long it might last, no way to know how bad it can get before disaster either.
Boot split wide open, yes replace it (both?)
You'll need new clamps for the large end of each boot....I'm not sure if you need the wire coil for the small ends or not.
If you're trying to judge leakage...... How much fluid have you had to add to the PS (total amount) in how many years and miles?
Any fluid loss that didn't leak externally went into those two boots....and there will be like 22 years worth of normal seepage...but is it losing fluid at a rapid pace?
Will it leak a lot in the near future?
Does it WORK right now?
Do you want to risk a cheapo parts store reman rack?
We can't really judge how bad the wheel bearing noise is...... No way to know how long it might last, no way to know how bad it can get before disaster either.
Thanks!
As for, how much fluid I've had to add to the PS (total amount) in how many years and miles...I'm still on the first quart, of Honda PS fluid I bought at least 15 years ago that I've used to top it off, which I just did again, at 186K miles...I still have about 1/4 quart of Honda PS fluid left.
As for, how bad the wheel bearing noise is, it actually seems to be not as loud as it once was but the rotating metal scraping noise is getting louder.
>>>Will it leak a lot in the near future?
Dunno
>>>Does it WORK right now?
Yes
>>>Do you want to risk a cheapo parts store reman rack?
First, I want to figure out, if I need to replace rack.
Last edited by g4384063; Dec 27, 2017 at 01:25 PM.
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Re: Replaceing inner & outer tie rods 96 civic ex
Oh god.
LOL I saw oneheadlight, that name is on another forum but don't remember where right now....Fit freaks maybe? IDK.
Anyway,
Leakage....look inside at the firewall area where the steering column goes through, see if you can see signs of leakage from the top seal of the steering rack there
Any other rack internal leakage would have collected inside the boots that are now split open....and HOW LONG have they been open and exposed to the elements, collecting dirt and road debris? (MAYBE that's reason enough to replace the entire steering gear?)
On the cotter pins.....if you're standing at the parts store just ask for the big box with the large selection of sizes to choose from,
Open up the box with your new outer tie rod end and pick a couple pins that fit the hole in the new TRE.
Pick the long ones instead of short ones, you can fold the ends out of the way later if too long-- but you can't make a short one longer.
Same pins will suffice for the ball joints if you have to undo those(if equipped) until you can get the right size if needed,
or take out one of the old ones before you go to the parts store and match it up
Castle nuts I reuse most of the time unless a new part comes with a new one. Sometimes I still have to reuse the original because it fits much better than aftermarket for whatever reasons.
Play that by ear.
...Leakage....look inside at the firewall area where the steering column goes through, see if you can see signs of leakage from the top seal of the steering rack there...
Thanks!
I assumed you meant look inside the engine, not inside the car.
From top, I did notice moisture, in the areas marked with red arrows but not necessarily on the wall:
Side view:
Last edited by g4384063; Dec 28, 2017 at 12:11 PM.
Boot split wide open, yes replace it (both?)
You'll need new clamps for the large end of each boot....I'm not sure if you need the wire coil for the small ends or not...
Originally Posted by ezone
Any other rack internal leakage would have collected inside the boots that are now split open....and HOW LONG have they been open and exposed to the elements, collecting dirt and road debris? (MAYBE that's reason enough to replace the entire steering gear?)
Thanks!
At this point, sounds like I can't avoid having to take off both sides inner boots, to see how much damage the elements have done to inner TRs, in order rule out whether or not PS rack is needed vs boots & inner TRs.
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Re: Replaceing inner & outer tie rods 96 civic ex
Originally Posted by oneheadlight
hey ezone, you mentioned me? I'm over at honda-tech as well as here.. What did ya want to know?
I recognized your handle in that HT thread but didn't immediately recall where I had seen it (I do check out some other forums from time to time, but I participate in this one the most)
Some days I can't remember a damn thing, but for somedamnreason I never get lucky enough to forget where I work!
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Re: Replaceing inner & outer tie rods 96 civic ex
Originally Posted by g4384063
Thanks!
I assumed you meant look inside the engine, not inside the car.
From top, I did notice moisture, in the areas marked with red arrows but not necessarily on the wall:
Yeah, whatever. I meant look for pinion seal leakage, wherever that may be.
I gave up trying to remember all the minutiae of all the various cars I don't ever see anymore. Most of what I see is maybe 15 years old and newer, majority is less than 10 years old. (I can't even remember the ones I see all the time now as it is!)
The oily residue mess in your pics, what's the source?
It didn't really look like it came from the steering itself, like the mess was left by something else. I can't see it up close though.
Pinion seal. Leakage.
Rack And Pinion steering
And if this 3rd image will embed.....
Great, thanks! That's very helpful! I'll have to take a closer look to determine source but I'm more confident that the PS rack is most likely not in need of replacing and moving forward with boots and inner TR, as opposed to rack.
Here's my to do list:
R&R... DS
1. Wheel bearing and hub
2. Axle
3. Inner and outer tie rods & boot PS
1. Inner and outer tie rods & boot
Some have suggested, if I'm planning on keeping the car, which I am, to just do all on both sides...Thoughts?
As for parts, I'd appreciate to hear whether everyone would go OEM, after market and/or salvage yard?
Last edited by g4384063; Dec 28, 2017 at 11:57 PM.
I was looking for Billy Bob Thornton.
