Wankenstein

1998 Civic EX coupe. A/T. 149k miles

About 6 months and 3,000 miles ago I replace both inner and outer tie rods on both passenger and driver's side. I mistakenly left off the inner tie rod lock washer http://civic-eg.com/pics/diy/tie_rod/DSCN5093.jpg on the driver's side (only). I tightened down the inner tie rods as tight as I could using a large crescent wrench on the nut shape base of the inner tie rod (nearest steering rack).I still have the lock washer and plan to install it tomorrow.

1) what is the purpose/function of that washer
2) should I use blue loctite on that washer too?
3) I didn't use blue loctite for the inner tie rods initially..should I remove them and add it?
4) Is it possible that by omitting (not on purpose) the lock washer on the driver's side it may be causing the full-lock left turn knocking describe here: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/2...ock-turns.html
* When we initially test drove the car before purchase I did full lock turns at low speed to test for CV axles and other noises and none were present. It made the driver's side knocking noise after the I installed the inner and outer tie rod on driver's side. Passenger side is fine and no noise present.

ezone

1) same as any other lock washer, to stop the threaded item from backing out if it were to come loose.
Steering is a safety item, so things like that might be kinda important.
Some manufacturers may not use locks, and I've seen what happens when someone didn't tighten an inner tie rod...Not something I want to try to explain to a judge or jury.
2) No
3) I don't, and I have not noticed any recently that used loctite in the original assembly. Did yours?
4) Was there a rubber or nylon ring around the end of the rack? That would cushion the stop at the limit of rack travel (full mechanical lock)....Is it missing?



It would probably be one of the #31 rings at the end of the rack; 'clamp, lock plate, ring, ring', maybe the one with 17 stuck to it, maybe the other one. I can't tell in the pic, they aren't labeled well and they all come in a kit.





Did you put a right outer tie rod end on the left side???

Wankenstein

Thank you Ezone.

I installed the driver's side first and it was my first ever inner (and outer) tie rod replacement,, I read a few DIY;s on it before I started which showed that washer + installation but, I (unintentionally) omitted mine and now that you have shed light (and my possible death or worse yet my daughter's) I am fixing this tomorrow. As I stated " I tightened down the inner tie rods as tight as I could using a large crescent wrench on the nut shape base of the inner tie rod. I tightened it down as tight as hard as I could push the crescent wrench and I had good leverage. I will know tomorrow if it's loose. I don't ever plan to make this mistake again.

For the passenger side (after reviewing more DIY's ) I installed that washer and I rented a tie rod tool that slipped over the outer ties rod's pentagonal base..worked great.

I did not notice loctite on the inner tie rods that I removed. I have read that it's optional (not specified in FSM) and seems like it would be beneficial.
I cannot recall if there was a rubber or nylon ring around the end of the rack.. will check tomorrow.

I put on the outer tie rod that I purchased from O' Reilly's .. I specifically told them it's for the driver's side/left. I will check it tomorrow however, I'm pretty sure (but not 100%) it is the correct part/side.

ezone

If you got it tight, it probably would never be a problem.


But on the outside chance it ever came loose......that lock plate is supposed to keep it from backing out.. Make sure it fits into the slots and you pound the edges into the flats so it can do its job.

Safety....I should have mentioned all the cotter pins that are used on most steering outer ends and ball joint nuts too. They are there to stop the nuts from backing off or falling off.



Did it match the one you removed?
I was thinking if the curve of the outer end was the wrong direction (meaning for the opposite side) it might be a factor.

Wankenstein

Will do

Yes..all cotter pins are in place,

IIRC the curve did match the old part: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...3448&ppt=C0106

Wankenstein

Ezone to the rescue again... you are thee man


Turns out they did sell me the right box/wrong part inside. There was an R (right) stamped on the driver's side outer tie rod. Called them up to verify if that part should have a L(eft) stamped on it.. he pulled one from the shelf and said that the correct part does have an L stamped on it and they will replace it for free and sorry for their error.


No wonder it didn't come out the knuckle easy. I banged on the knuckle with a 24 oz hammer and didn't budge it. Ended up using a tie rod fork style puller which (as known to do) gashed the boot. Didn't tear it all the way through.. doesn't matter anyway, part being exchanged.
On my way to store after this to pick it up.. will report back later with this and oil pan gasket replacement results.

ezone

LOL you ALWAYS check the parts before you install! Even after sooo many years doing this (being at a dealer makes no difference) this is still a hard lesson to learn, and you wouldn't believe how much time can get wasted because someone picked out the wrong side/color/type/name/etc.....and the tech takes apart the car before discovering the incorrect part was received.I'm thinking.....
Because the curve of the tie rod end is intended to allow clearance for the tire and wheel when the knuckle is at a full lock sharp turn, the incorrect curve of the wrong end could have been making contact with the wheel.

Wankenstein

I hear you..lessened learned. I don't have much of an excuse why I made the mistakes that I did on my first tie rod install. I've probably performed more repairs in the past six months than I have in total to that point... or at least repairs I haven't tried before.


I have no doubt the knocking noise will be eliminated after the correct outer tie rod is installed.

I have the oil pan off, cleaned up, and the block's mating service cleaned. Before I install it have any tips to ensure no leak? Should I replace oil pump gasket before I put the cover back on? .. doesn't look like it's leaking but, seems like it's an opportune time.

When I took the tie rod boot off it had a lot of oil inside. Outside had some oil too..
is this common (inner rod joint grease melting)? Possible steering rack issue?
I removed the inner tie rod and the slot where the lock washer sits in is clearly scene (in reference to your post last night: 17 Hours Ago 10:11 PM with diagram.

ezone

Nothing really....
If it's a steel pan with the wide flat gasket, the steel rings embedded in the rubber can come out of the old gasket and cling on the studs and cause leaks. Yes I've done it and I even pulled a transmission out to figure that one out.

That's up to you, but it's a great time to do it if you want to do a lot more work LOL. The timing belt and everything would have to come off to do it too.


The boots catch everything that has been dripped inside the rack along with the grease and catching every last drop of PS fluid that might have seeped past the hydraulic ram. All normal IMO......

I would not worry about it unless it has been consuming power steering fluid without seeing any external leakage, and if it had been then you would have had a quart dump on the floor when you pulled the boots loose.

Wankenstein

Stock aluminum pan. I used a Felpro silcone (blue) oil pain gasket. FSM shows use of Hondabond on each end (humps). Felpro tech said no need and not recommended with silicone gasket.I did not use Hondabond and hope it doesn't leak. Will know tomorrow. Is it okay to start the car (still on jacks) with the exhaust manifold off? I know it will be loud but, other than that is it harmful in any way? I'd like to run for a bit to look for gasket leaks before putting on the flywheel dust plate, bracket and exhaust.

I mislabeled the oil strainer as the oil pump.. I didn't bother removing it.

Not losing PS fluid.. hasn't went down at all since we purchased it. Definitely way less than a quart inside the boot...half a cup or less. I forgot to mention the inner tie rod was still on tight, I brought both left inner and outer rods into O' Reilly's and they replaced both (correct Left outer) without charge (as they should..lol). Installed both inner, outer and lock washer properly and will know tomorrow if it's noise free and possibly turning in a tighter radius.

ezone

I probably would have used it wherever the factory had used it. Corners, bends, and across joints where 2 chunks of aluminum meet.

The heat causing damage to anything in front might be a worry for me. At least lift the manifold up and screw a fastener or two in it?

Have more confidence in your work!
I know what you mean though....


I wouldn't worry about it then.

Wankenstein

That's why for this particular repair I don't have full confidence, FSM says one thing.. Felpro tech says another.

I'll bolt down the exhaust manifold, attach but not bolt tail pipe, and leave dust plate and bracket off. If it leaks I'll pull it and apply Hondabond... If it doesn't leak I'll button it up and have a beer for a mini celebration.

Turns out the rear main seal is still leaking (no surprise). That's a project for another time. My son's friend said he'd do it for $150 ..so, I am leaning that way.

Wankenstein

Decided to put it all back together at once. No leaks while testing on jack stands but, need some road time to be sure. Car is having tires rotated , balanced and aligned right now. Knocking noise is gone, Thanks Ezone.

Have an unrelated question if you care to answer:
After a valve lash adjustment does ignition timing need to be checked (timing light)?
Previous clearance I = .009 E = .011
Current clearance I = .008 E = .010

ezone

No.
Once the distributor is adjusted correctly, it should never ever have to be moved again for its useful lifetime. Because the dist is driven directly off the back of the camshaft , the dist/ignition initial timing is a direct function of the cam-crank relationship. There are no gears to wear nor points to wear, etc. so timing should NEVER waver.... If timing is ever off then something serious must be wrong elsewhere.



tl;dr
If ignition timing is off then one needs to closely check the timing belt. (assuming the dist has never been dinked with)

old97civic

Like ezone said, have confidence in your work!

I changed the oil pan gasket on my 97 civic in the summer of 2014.

Went relatively smooth. Managed to get the 3 nuts off at the joint where the front exhaust pipe meets the exhaust manifold/converter. This was before I had an impact wrench so I consider myself lucky! At the other end, the bolts and nuts had become shapeless blobs, so I didn't even bother with the sockets, I just cut them off and replaced with new, which is typical anytime you mess with exhaust pipes.

The oil pan itself was fairly straightforward. I did use a bit of RTV sealant at the points indicated in the FSM. I used Felpro gaskets for valve cover and oil pan (spark plug tube seals too, came with the valve cover gasket). I have a steel pan. Where it meets the bearing retainer, the steel pan has a radius in the corners, whereas the bearing retainer IIRC has sharp corners, and this is where the potential for leakage is. Your aluminum pan may be different.

I put a piece of cardboard under the car after to detect leaks. After a few days of driving and parking over the cardboard, didn't see any leaks so I called it good.

I'm kind of surprised how many of the newer cars don't have these types of molded gaskets for the oil pan, you're supposed to use liquid gasket maker. Faster in a factory environment I guess, but takes way longer if done as service later on. (scraping off old gasket etc)

Wankenstein

Thanks Ezone. I used a timing light on it a few weeks ago after HG and TB. Ignition timing is fine it matched up with the notch one of the previous owner or mechanics put across the distributor and block. Maybe it's just in my head but it feels like this engine and the 7th gen 1.7L (my mom's car) run better when the valves are set at I = .09 and E = .011 compared to what I set mine at I =.08 and E .010.
You told me a while ago you set your at the loose end for your customers.

ezone

If you find posts by kinakoes, IIRC he spoke of a similar experience regarding valve adjustment but I believe he thought the opposite.

While it is true that valve overlap, lift, and duration can be manipulated a little bit through varying the adjustment specs, I personally think it's not something the average Joe is gonna notice at all.
Yeah BUT anywhere within their adjustment spec range is perfectly OK..


The way I see it:
Valve adjustments are no longer a regular scheduled maintenance service item so they rarely (if ever) get it done.....

and because most of Hondas engines tend to tighten the valves with time and miles instead of loosen....

I try to do this work as though nobody will ever touch it again so if they need adjusted I try to set them where I believe they will last the longest without further attention.






Loose valves just make noise.
Tight valves burn.

Tight valves can also cause rich codes, misfire codes, loss of compression, etc.

Wankenstein

It looks like my oil pan gasket has a tiny leak at the front of the engine. Another lessen learned...FSM trumps everything else. I'm going to wait until I put about 3k miles on and during next oil change redo it using Hondabond per FSM.
My mom's '04 Civic DX car has 66K and I doubt the valves had been adjusted before I did them a couple weeks ago. They were set at .009 and .011 . I used .008 and .010 and regretting it. Both cars feel like they don't open up/breath (for lack of a better term) quite as well as before...especially at higher speeds.

Based on your info in bold I will likely adjust the valves on both cars to loose spec. Valve jobs are pretty simple..just tedious. I think I might buy one of these to make it a bit easier: At some point in time I'm going to get **** right the first time I do it.. Although, getting reps in is a good way to learn to work faster..lol.