hobbes

First off, I want to state that I read Whiterabbit's post on "how NOT to act at a shop", and I want to make sure that I don't give that impression (or in any way meant to) to anyone here or the people at the shop that I would like to have upgrade my system.
Thank you to anyone who actually reads and replies... post is a little long

Currently, this is my setup:

Pioneer Premier DEH-P630 (x3 pair) (4V) Hi-Volt RCA Preouts
(2x) 5 1/4" TS-E1395 pioneer premiers
(2x) 6 1/2" TS-E1695 pioneer premiers
(sub amp) Eclipse 3322 amp (160W x 2, but it's bridged)
(surrounds amp) MTX 2150x amp (75W X2 into 4 ohms/150W x2 into 2 ohms... not sure what its set at)
-both amps known to run hot
Kicker CVR12 12" Sub (400W RMS max)

It sounds ok, but the bass is rather "boomy" (not tight) and the bass frequencies seem to drop off especially on "sliding" techno or rap beats (good examples: "Mindfields" by Prodigy, or "Spybreak" by Propellorheads?) There is also a range of bass frequencies that seem nonexistent somewhere in the higher bass range... the 12" won't hit them; the surrounds do, sort of, but you really can't here it)
The surrounds sound good for the most part, but they really don't have much bass at all. The subwoofer overpowers them right now. I have to crank the volume up on the headunit up to around 85% (54/63) to get the surrounds to a so-so med-loud volume...if I turn it up more the speakers start clipping.

I would like louder (clean) sound that doesn't have a dropoff in the higher bass frequencies.

I had my "overheating amp problem" fixed by [shop name omitted], and I would like to have them upgrade my system. They earned my trust, because 4 other shops that I took my car to could not figure out that the reason my amps were thermaling was because the amp board mounted on the sub box was pushing the line-in connection on the sub out, creating a weak connection (consequently my sub vol almost doubled... how the orig shop did not notice this or if they did and just choose not to tell me is ridiculous) They also retuned my amps and balanced the L/R channels on the amps... both increased sound quality.

BUT
the gen manager/sales people seem to be giving me mixed messages. From what I've learned over the past year from just dealing with my car's audio and by reading the posts and links of car audio faqs of respected members of this site, I'm running into contradictions (contradicting opinions?).

mohawkboom posted recently that "80%" of car audio sound is in the installation. I was told that wasn't true by the gen manager... I was also told that Pioneer Premier is a so-so headunit that sends out a distorted signal, and that I should replace it... every ref I find states that that is not true (I know it's not reference) ... and from mohawkboom's post, using an "Oscilloscope and an RTA the sound differences [between headunits] were so minimal that the human ear can't pick it up". I was told that my component speakers were subpar as well... aren't they just underpowered? Most refs say that Premiers are above average, such as this car audio faq that was posted in this forum... I was also recommended against sound deadening unless I wanted to spend a fortune... I thought deadening (even if just around the speakers) was good!

I'm taking my car to one of their stores next Sat for a hookup to an Oscilloscope and an RTA; this was suggested after discussing my options for about 40 mins with no sale.

Any advice, opinions, suggestions on equipment, flames? I think that my best bet and bang for the buck is getting a good 4 channel amp for the surrounds, a good 2 channel amp for the sub, and replacing the 12" with 2 quality 8"s or 10"s. But I don't know...

I still think that the installers at this shop are top notch, and would prefer them to upgrade my system... if not I probably won't upgrade...

fonto

iTrader: (1)

Just remeber that the main goal of a shop is to make money...and Some shady shops will tell you whatever you need to hear in order to buy their products, which usually consists of bashing products that they do not sell.

Stick with the Pioneer HU.

Listen with your ears and gut...don't listen with preconcieved notions.

There is a lot of marketing, preasure, and attemted brainwashing in the Car Audio industry ....and not enough listening IMO

Some people like steak and some people don't...find the sound that YOU like, and don't let anyone tell you what you should like more.

Regularjoe

Heres my thoughts.

1) Is your surrounds amp hooked to the fronts only or to all 4 speakers? I would make sure that amp is only running your front speakers. The leave the rears off deck power.

2) Pioneer makes really good decks. Great bang for buck features. Your deck is fine. Thats all I have ever bought. Sum up look, price, functionality, and features, and I always end up w/ Pioneer.

3) The Pioneer speakers are hit or miss from my experience. Sometimes they rock, other times they suck bad. Personally I would buck up for some nice components up front that are run off the mtx amp and leave the rears off deck power. Any reputable brand should rock. JL, Infinity, Diamond, MB Quart, Boston, etc..... you will notice a difference.

4) Now with that deck, sky is the limit to tweaking. It might be to your best advantage to have someone tune your system. There are deck and amplifier high and low pass filters everywhere. Plus then all the tone controls .... and slope controls for the tone controls. Gets rather crazy. It took me a long time to get to a point where I understand most of what it is meant for. Go to a dealer and pay to have them tune it correctly for SQ.

5) I see one of the speakers you have is 5.25", aren't the civics 6.5" all the way around. Generally a 6.5" is a much better speaker than the other. If you can get a 6.5" ....

Good luck man ....

mohawkboom

iTrader: (1)

Okay the shop manager your talking to is a lazy turdmuncher.

Sound deadening ALWAYS noticably helps. If even just a little around the speakers. The Pioneer HU's are really good. The internal amplifiers on all HU's distorts massively after about 2/3 up on the volume ****. The RCA outputs on the Pioneers don't clip. Except maybe at the last knotch in the volume level but most don't clip at all.

The Premiere speakers are pretty decent. for the price. They should be high passed at about 90Hz up for the front and rears. I think your HU has the feature to do this. If not your amp will.

What I'd suggest as the best bang for the buck Sound upgrade is to get yourself a decent a 4 channel amp for your surrounds. and change out that sub. The Comp VR's can ge stupid loud but it's really hard to get them to sound great. I'd suggest an Adire Audio Shiva as a replacement. their $125 US. and it'll cost you another $100 or so for a shop to build you a proper enclosure for it. (1.8 cu.ft) Your amp will work wonders with it. and it won't sound boomy and it will play really low as well.

About the install manager telling you 80% of isn't install. That's a load of crap. an optimal install requires proper speaker placement for the car. proper sound deadening. Proper tuning. and the list goes on. Slapping speakers into the stock door location is plenty fine. and can sound really good. But the sheetmetal in the doors is pretty thin and prone to vibration which gives you a loss in sound output and added sound when there shouldn't be.

If you have any more questions just feel free to post them here or PM me and I'll get back to you. I've helped a few members here get their cars sounding alot better and even helped 1 guy with almost no install experience do his whole system.

Cheers
Mohawk

LudlamTheory

just a few things i wanted to pontificate on

1 - he may like his rears amped. lets not start having the rearfill argument.

2 - pioneer decks are clean, but, the sky's limit of tweaking many times takes away your quality. all the features it has can all be basically broken down to eq'ing... loud function boosts bass and treb, other functions boost other thing, too much boost, you get clipping.

3 - a 6.5 is in no way a better speaker than a 6.5 6.5 can usually play lower, but a 5.25 will play the midrange with better transient response.

thats like you saying an 8 is better than a 12. for no reason

Regularjoe

He was looking for more midbass ..... thats why I was saying the 6.5" would be better ..... thats generally though of course ....

hobbes

Thanks for all your comments!
Fonto, I'm definately going to keep my deck. The only reason I'd get a new one is for mp3s.

I put the HPF on 125Hz... only options are 63, 80, or 125Hz... I can pretty much crank them now...but,
I was testing it today... and it looks like the problems I had dealing with the line in to the sub(see orig post) aren't over... before it caused the amps to thermal and it popped my orig RF sub...
the problem has been fixed now, but I think it might have orignally also damaged my right 5.25... around 50/63, it gets scratchy on certain low freqs (HPF is on), and around 56/63 it sounds pretty bad... the left 5.25, can go louder with no distortion at all.

Now it looks like I may have to get new components... anyone know for a fact what 6.5"s fit in the doors? If my surrounds are all the same size, the sound should be more centered...right? Is it best to have all four components the same brand? Or should I just get new door speakers?

Regularjoe
I orig wanted 6.5" in the front and 6x9" in the rear, but was told neither fit...so they put in 5.25"s and 6.5"s...

Mohawkboom,
I'm definately going to get a 4 channel amp for the surrounds, though
Thanks for the sub suggestion. The eclipse amp is ok?
I think I want deadening around the speakers as well... anything to minimize vibrations and increase sound output.

THe RTA is going to cost me $100, but I'll be able to credit the $100 to my purchase... sounds like a good deal to me.

hobbes

...link didn't work...

WhiteRabbit

oh man, so many questions, where to start!

#1. information at shops is always diferent than information online. its the difference between theory and reality.

in theory, install is paramount, and will affect prety much yoru entire response.

in actuality, noone pays a shop to do a proper install. too much money. thus, equipment choice becomes very key issue at a shop.

about the pioneer radio, everyone can have a say in it, who cares. i wouldnt trust the info, i dont agree with a bit of what my manager says, but ill not contradict him, cause its basically all opinion based. who am i to be argumentative?

"I was also recommended against sound deadening unless I wanted to spend a fortune... I thought deadening (even if just around the speakers) was good!"

you misinterpreted this statement. ever see how expensive dynamat is? that means to dynamat your car, you will spend a fortune. good or bad? doesnt enter into it. dynamat = spending a fortune.

now: your specific problem, is a midbass gap. and its the bane of caraudio, its very difficult to fix (considering practicality here)

youll have to decide what kind of midbass music you listen to (basically impact or musicality) that will affect what you can and cant do about it. best step would be to replace those speakers tho, get something with a bit more midbass response...

but i want to make something very clear for everyone. shop caraudio facts are totally different than theoretical acoustical facts. they will almost always contradict, and they both will almost always be correct, both. its just each caters to a different kind of enthusiast. its that simple.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

I've found that MTX mono (class D) amps are good for subs. I didn't read all of the post, but getting a new surround amp and adding sound deadening to the places where speakers are installed will help. A better deck probably won't help much. I have a pioneer deh-p940mp premier deck powering 4 infinity 6.5s, and an mtx mono amp powering 2 infinity 10'' subs. I really like the way it sounds, but a lower deck would probably give nearly the same quality. Having an eq (10 band adjustable or similar) is the best thing to adjust. You have to listen to music and play with each band until you get the sound you think is best. Making adjustments after a proper install will help fine tune your sound.

GrimNexus

No, 80% of your car audio IS in install, most of it doesn't have very much to do with equipment. If it wasn't mostly install, please explain to me how the guy that holds the SPL record does it with 1, yes, ONE, 10" sub. something like 172.3 db.
As far as deadening goes, just don't use dynamat, there are TONS of other alternatives out there that are just as good, if not better, at more than half of the price of dynamat.

WhiteRabbit

169.8 verified, is what nathan munson is claiming. and he doesnt hold any sort of spl record, becasue he has been beat out many many times, check out his competition stats. Even with a pair of beast, which is what he is currently running, his scores posted of 174+ arent enough at his level to keep him on top.

as to install being 80% of yoru sound, read my above post of how shop truth is different than enthusiast truth, despite being the same truth.

at a shop, installs are all almost identical. therefore, equipment plays a HUGE role on yrou sound. however, it cant hold a candle to custom installation.

doesnt mean that shop employees dont have one iota of knowledge. it just may not apply to you.

hobbes

Well, my system is almost done...
One of the front speakers was blown... I ended up going with earthquake 5.25's in the front running off the sclipse amp, and running the premier 6.5's off the deck. I traded out the Comp VR for a JL W3v2 in a sealed box powered by a JL 250.1.... The surrounds sound great now... but the sub is still being worked on. Hopefully this weekend it will be done!

WhiteRabbit

so the tweeters didnt hold up, i was told? i guess it wasnt a surprise, really, but do you know they did to get them in there solid, if they had to pull them out?

hobbes

The right one popped off, but the left one held.
they added more silicon to the one on the left just in case.
since the right on fell off, they reapplied more silicon to it and taped it to hold it in place for 48 hours. I took the tape off yesterday... they're both holding, but not entirely solid, I guess because silicon is tacky/rubbery, so I imagine that it's always going to have some give...

there's still a small gap on the left one in between the pod and the bottom of the tweeter (uneven plastic?), but I think that I would have to pull on it to get it to come off.

WhiteRabbit

yeah, we were discussing the best way of mounting them, really tricky to get a good solid hold in there.

but silicone by nature has a bit of give to it, so im not surprised it ahs a teeny bit of play. i dont think they will pop off now tho, the give is just inherrent in the properties of the silicone. should be pretty solid

hobbes

ended up switching my sub from a JL to a Diamond... for some reason, the JL didn't handle bass very well on a couple songs... even switched it out to make sure the sub wasn't busted.
It sounds pretty tight now... just have to get a grill for it... should be in on Thursday.