danwat12345

Hey,
Another weird thread from danwat12345.

Has anyone tried to reduce the emissions of Carbon Monoxide, NOX and particulate matter below what the car would normally produce, by upgrading the catalytic converter to a better one? I'm not talking about a high-flow CAT, I'm talking about a CAT that can burn more of the emissions.

I know I probably couldn't get it to the levels of a ULEV vehicle, because I think engine combustion temperatures need to increase to do that (just a guess), but if there are CAT upgrades available that would keep the car's computer and O2 sensors happy.

Zeferint

iTrader: (2)

This is quite the weird thread.. but way better than telling some kid what exhaust, intake or lowering springs to get.

I know the HX models (6th gen models--not sure about the 01+ HX's) have 2 Catalytic converters and the car has won all sorts of awards on emissions testing. If you could replicate the HX exhaust setup that would go a long way to reducing emissions. While you're down there check out the O2 sensor. Personally I'd replace it since you'd have the whole thing apart anyway. As far as keeping the computer happy, just do an ECU reset once in a blue moon to give it a fresh reboot. Couldn't hurt.

MindBomber

I'm a passionate environmentalist, so it's nice to see these thread in place of the typical cat delete threads.

I haven't heard of cat upgrades before, the markets so limited and increasing the precious metal reagent would make a higher performing cat would be extremely costly. I wonder if you could achieve lowering the emissions by adding a secondary high flow cat. That shouldn't be restrictive or mess with the ecu..

I wonder if there's any new relevant information on ecomodder on this topic..

Zeferint

iTrader: (2)

Yeah cat's are expensive already with the palladium. If you add a second cat then you'd just be (hypothetically) extending the first one. If it's one single unit, it shouldn't need an additional O2 sensor or any ecu modding....hypothetically.. lol

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

oem is already the best, and newer ulev civics use the same cat technology. the ulev comes from a combination of other emissions reducing components like EGR and EVAP among others. it would be very difficult to modify or add these systems because the engine wasnt designed for them.

lazlong

I bet you could put a real cat behind the second sensor without a problem. It's a shame it would take $500 just for the parts (cat) to test it. May have to do the sensor bypass, dunno.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

too bad there is no reliable hi flow cat worth trying. on our civics, i bet even a second oem cat would work. these cars dont exactly have a ton of power to need a wide open exhaust.

danwat12345

I think the 2001+ Civics are all ULEV. Thanks for the input.
I figure an easy way to reduce emissions on cold days is to have a CAT heater so it is warm before the engine starts.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

many higher end cars have oem cat heaters already, but they require a good bit of electrical power and the system can be hard to implement. on a smaller engine that warms up fast, it may not be worth it and in some cases a second battery is needed. more power draw and more weight, so it might not work out as well as you hope. i know the 01+ civics have heated oxygen sensors, but you have to turn the car on for about 20 secs or so before starting the engine so it has a chance to heat up. its better than nothing.

lazlong

Almost all newer cars go into closed loop after about 20 secs.

The EX an SI models are not ULEV. The DX, LX, HX, and Hybrid are ULEV.

danwat12345

Closed loop? Are you talking about an EGR valve opening?
Or do u mean that the engine starts running leaner after 20 seconds of operation (no longer running in 'safe mode').

Yea my car stays fast-idling for about 30 seconds then sllloowwwlly drops down to the hot idle speed after 5 minutes or however long it take for the temperature to increase to a point where the computer isn't raising the speed above stock anymore. Sometimes I wish my car has an idle speed dial like a diesel.

R u saying that new cars will start idling normally when cold soon after starting? Makes sense i guess.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

no even new cars start at high idle (when its winter) to warm the cat and engine up faster. high idle is separate from closed and open loop. there are many different sensors that determine a/f ratios at certain temps. mostly the coolant temp determines what the sensors do like the ECT and IAC to adjust the fuel trims and idle speed.

lazlong im sure EX is also ulev. i know i had the sticker on mine.

danwat12345

What about this.
http://www.ecooptimized.com/index.php/about-blade.html

Seems like a bit of a scam. I mean I'm sure it could catch a lot of oil smoke if your car burns a lot of oil but would it really reduce "toxic Particulate Material". It also claims 12% gains if fuel economy which I highly doubt.

Apparently even new Direct Injection cars produce a lot of tiny particles that can be bad for human health, but I thought SULEV and PZEV cars were basically emission free when warmed up, 'cept for CO2.

From what I've read, the amount of particles for gas cars aren't regulated because the mass of particles is really low when compared to diesels, because the size of the particles are much smaller, but the number of small particles is huge and the small particles can do more damage to cardio system than big particles. But SULEV and PZEV have to mean something.

http://gas2.org/2012/01/08/bad-news-...t-safe-either/

http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions.html:
"%u2026The mass of particles emitted from diesel vehicles is regulated by EU legislation. Particles emitted from petrol vehicles are not regulated because the mass emitted is low. The number of particles emitted is not regulated for any type of vehicle, but may be an important indicator of the health impacts. Ultrafine particles are believed to penetrate deeper into the lungs and to stay there longer than larger particles. The mass of one particle with a diameter of 3 %u00B5m is equal to the mass of 1 million particles with a diameter of 0.03 %u00B5m. Most particles from gasoline engines fall below 0.1 %u00B5m. This is why they contribute little to the mass of particles collected during a conventional emissions test%u2026"

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

hunh.
bump the compression slightly up? adjust map for that? I know that ours are pretty high already, though.

danwat12345

I just when to DEQ and on the report I saw this as a part of the checklist

Oxygen Sensor Heater: Ready

So my car has an O2 sensor heater, is this on both the input and output sensor? Is this on constantly when the ignition is on? Would it help heat the CAT a bit before starting the engine, by leaving the ignition on for a minute or so before starting?

I notice when I turn on the ignition, the battery voltage lowers by a good 0.2V at least on a fresh battery (after fuel pump cycles off) so there is a significant load somewhere and it isn't the computer.

ezone

You are looking on the monitors list. No, the O2 heater cannot heat a cat. Period. It heats the O2 sensor.


If you are talking about that "closed loop" thing, closed loop only means that the computer (PCM) can watch the exhaust and adjust the intake side (fuel control) based on that info. Also known as "feedback" and "feedback loop".
Input is modified- based on output.

"Open loop" means the PCM is controlling fuel based only on preprogrammed and/or learned values.
Most common times to see open loop is
on startup,
cold engine running,
near WOT fuel enrichment,
deceleration fuel shutoff,
and certain faults.


The O2 sensor(s) are the only means of "seeing" what is exiting the engine. (Also may use A/F, LAF, AFR, and maybe other sensors.)
The O2 sensors are not active until they reach well over 500 degrees. They put heaters inside the O2 sensors so they can begin to work much sooner than an unheated version. Well under a minute now, instead of several minutes for an unheated version to get heated to operating temperature only by the hot exhaust.


Think of the cat as the most important thing on a car. Emissions are very important to the EPA and the manufacturers.
The engine computers main job is to get that cat active as soon as possible, and keep it alive for as long as possible.
Using the engine to propel the car down the road is just a byproduct.


We use valve (cam) and ignition timing and fuel mixtures now to get the cat to "light off" ASAP, in addition to mounting the cat as close to the engine as possible.

Did that help?

danwat12345

Yup it did thanks. I guess the sensor heaters aren't that many watts. I'd think a lot of the heat from those sensor heaters would conduct to the CAT over time.

ezone

Nope, they only heat the thimble area of the sensor.

danwat12345

Does that heater cycle off? In a way it is bad that it is on when the ignition on, because some people just want to turn on the dashboard fan or stop the thing from beeping when the doors are open or something without the engine running but the battery doesn't last as long with the sensor heaters on.

Thanks for all the info

ezone

Depends.®
Quit trying to out think the engineers that built the thing.
An O2 heater might draw around 1 amp, if the element resistance is 12 ohms. Minimal, compared to the rest of the car.
A general rule of thumb is that it now takes about 15-20 amps just to run an engine. The alternator handles that while the engine is running. The battery is NOT designed to do this job.

Your example of "some people" are the
******---->FILTER ENABLED<----******

I guess everything on the car will eventually turn off when the battery goes dead.

If one sits in the car for their entire lunch period with the key in the run position, fan on full blast, DRLs on, radio blasting, charging up their cell phone, etc., and the engine is NOT running......they deserve to have a dead battery. DUH.

OTOH, a GOOD battery will run all those things for a few minutes without a problem. I wouldn't go more than maybe 5 minutes, you never can really tell how good your battery was until it is too late.


--------------------------------------------

In the shop, I turn OFF everything electrical that I can when I MUST have the key on for long periods of time. I rarely ever kill batteries.

The guy that works next to me always leaves everything exactly as the owner left it. AC on, radio up, all electric consumers on, can't even shut off the DRLs. He kills batteries on a regular basis, and causes himself loads of problems that EAT up precious time.

I can only shake my head.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

my best advice is to not really worry about what goes on behind the scenes. yeah its good to know, and i could type up a whole page of what uses power when the key is turned to ON position, but in the end you will not really make a difference if you start doing things you normally wouldnt think of. aside from waiting 20 seconds before switching from ON to START for the sensor heater to warm up, i doubt there is much else. the biggest benefit esp on cold days would be a cat heater like bmw has on their cars that warms it up before the exhaust gases do. takes a ton of amps tho and requires a much larger battery than you normally would see. there are so many things about the electronics on this car but overall a "normal" person prolly doesnt need to know them. a volt meter tells you quite a bit like if you want to watch the alternator turning on and off depending on whether you are pressing the gas or using too many accessories. sensors are tied into everything. the a/c, ps pressure switch, brake pedal switch, and few other systems are tied to the IAC valve so that the ecu can increase the idle in anticipation of you using them. the mcu has a sleep mode when the car is off so long as all the doors are closed and key is removed. alternator normally only charges when you let go of the gas or are at idle, to increase engine performance and improve mileage. i have a small braille battery and am nowhere near maxing it out. on some hot days with the a/c on (alt always charging), ive actually had the ecu reduce voltage from 14v to 13.5v because the battery was fully charged. i think analog volt meter is one of the best things you can have if oyu want to see what the electrical system is doing. there are all sorts of things going on all the time. if you ever get a chance, pick up a honda electrical manual (about half the size of the service manual) and read thru it. the amount of electronic components and circuits is mind boggling esp for a civic. but to answer your question, the car's systems use over 100w just during normal driving. accessories can quickly increase this (headlights on 180w, blower fan turned one tick 55w, rear defrost and a/c several hundred watts or more with both cooling fans also on, etc). basically if you drive the car normally most of these systems will do what they are supposed to without you knowing anything. if you want to save gas, dont use any accessories (radio, blower, cruise, a/c, defrost, lights, whatever).

HondasFueknRULE

Guys, do you honestly know how clean today's cars are?!?!! You could inhale the exhaust directly from the pipe for 12 hours and not die! How much cleaner do people want them>!?!?!