D16 vs. B16 engines
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Re: D16 vs. B16 engines
i could be mistaken, but didn't the k20 in the ep3 have direct port fuel injection? the Stream (never made it to the US) had it too in 2003.
Direct Port Fuel Injection isn't new either, goes back as far as 1925. My civic LX guaranteed got better fuel economy 6 years ago then ANY VW with direct port today. My b16 civic probably gets the same MPG as the VW and is probably faster too.
Maybe VW should concentrate more on making timing belts that don't snap at 30,000miles resulting in a class action lawsuit rather than positioning the injector at the dome of the combustion chamber for an extra mpg or two. Even if VW implemented direct port fuel injection first, why would you need to change a system that wasn't broken to begin with? class leading fuel economy and world record displacement to power ratios. You can also compare the difference in price between a VW and a Honda, not only on the lot but in the shop. So VW beat Honda to Direct Port injection, the Russians beat us into space, but we still kicked their *** in everything else.
Aside from Honda's advancements in powerplant technology, is their advancement in the automotive platform in general. Lane stability management, SH-AWD (only system that allows 100% power transfer diagonally across the differential) driver alertness sensor, variable cruise control, variable climate control, variable impact crush zones on the new acuras. How about being the first manufacturer to implement "safety for everybody". Honda launched it in the early 2000s as a means to reduce pedestrian injury in the event of a vehicle vs. pedestrian shootout? why do you think honda redesigned the hoods of the civic and accords etc? for pedestrian safety. Or how about the RL's ability to detect wether a pedestrian or an animal will cross your path based on your trajectory and current speed... from over 100 yards away? How about Hondas variable motor assist system in the hybrids? HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT HONDA IS THE FIRST MAJOR AUTOMOTIVE MANUFACTURER TO OFFER A HYDROGEN FUEL CELL VEHICLE?! I dare call that a zenith in auto technology.
A-vtec is currently awaiting a patent. It does work, will not be implemented until patented. Besides, it took years to develop such an enormous leap in auto tech, the newest step won't come for another decade at least. Think of it this way, everyone else is just now catching up to a technology Honda nearly perfected 30 years ago.... and they are still not exactly on that level. Wow it took Ford almost 30 years JUST to put OHCs on the mustang. lame.
There is a very distinct difference between variable valve timing and variable valve lift. It's also called a patent, meaning no one can copy the exact design for a certain period of time. That time may have passed, yet still nobody has been able to replicate Honda's VTEC tech. Like i said before MIVEC is close. It's not splitting a **** hair, its two completely different things, variable valve timing is just that changing valve timing. Changing valve lift is distinctly altering the gap between the valve head and the intake port.
i-Vtec now has the ability to alter CRANK timing in correlation to cam timing. Who else does that? I would call the ability to vary the crank timing while compensating for cam timing, while doing 8k rpm for 400,000 cycles just to pass Honda's testing requirements, a pretty big leap forward. Not to mention these engines run for hundreds of thousands of miles. Again, I'd say pretty far ahead.
as for the N55, the Valvetronic system is a variable valve timing system to offer continuously variable timing (on both intake and exhaust camshafts) along with continuously variable intake valve lift, from ~0 to 10 mm, and duration on the intake camshaft only
Close. But close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.
Direct Port Fuel Injection isn't new either, goes back as far as 1925. My civic LX guaranteed got better fuel economy 6 years ago then ANY VW with direct port today. My b16 civic probably gets the same MPG as the VW and is probably faster too.
Maybe VW should concentrate more on making timing belts that don't snap at 30,000miles resulting in a class action lawsuit rather than positioning the injector at the dome of the combustion chamber for an extra mpg or two. Even if VW implemented direct port fuel injection first, why would you need to change a system that wasn't broken to begin with? class leading fuel economy and world record displacement to power ratios. You can also compare the difference in price between a VW and a Honda, not only on the lot but in the shop. So VW beat Honda to Direct Port injection, the Russians beat us into space, but we still kicked their *** in everything else.
Aside from Honda's advancements in powerplant technology, is their advancement in the automotive platform in general. Lane stability management, SH-AWD (only system that allows 100% power transfer diagonally across the differential) driver alertness sensor, variable cruise control, variable climate control, variable impact crush zones on the new acuras. How about being the first manufacturer to implement "safety for everybody". Honda launched it in the early 2000s as a means to reduce pedestrian injury in the event of a vehicle vs. pedestrian shootout? why do you think honda redesigned the hoods of the civic and accords etc? for pedestrian safety. Or how about the RL's ability to detect wether a pedestrian or an animal will cross your path based on your trajectory and current speed... from over 100 yards away? How about Hondas variable motor assist system in the hybrids? HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT HONDA IS THE FIRST MAJOR AUTOMOTIVE MANUFACTURER TO OFFER A HYDROGEN FUEL CELL VEHICLE?! I dare call that a zenith in auto technology.
A-vtec is currently awaiting a patent. It does work, will not be implemented until patented. Besides, it took years to develop such an enormous leap in auto tech, the newest step won't come for another decade at least. Think of it this way, everyone else is just now catching up to a technology Honda nearly perfected 30 years ago.... and they are still not exactly on that level. Wow it took Ford almost 30 years JUST to put OHCs on the mustang. lame.
There is a very distinct difference between variable valve timing and variable valve lift. It's also called a patent, meaning no one can copy the exact design for a certain period of time. That time may have passed, yet still nobody has been able to replicate Honda's VTEC tech. Like i said before MIVEC is close. It's not splitting a **** hair, its two completely different things, variable valve timing is just that changing valve timing. Changing valve lift is distinctly altering the gap between the valve head and the intake port.
i-Vtec now has the ability to alter CRANK timing in correlation to cam timing. Who else does that? I would call the ability to vary the crank timing while compensating for cam timing, while doing 8k rpm for 400,000 cycles just to pass Honda's testing requirements, a pretty big leap forward. Not to mention these engines run for hundreds of thousands of miles. Again, I'd say pretty far ahead.
as for the N55, the Valvetronic system is a variable valve timing system to offer continuously variable timing (on both intake and exhaust camshafts) along with continuously variable intake valve lift, from ~0 to 10 mm, and duration on the intake camshaft only
Close. But close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.
VW was the first to come out with DI = Direct fuel injection for production 4 cylinder cars in there 2.0L T and there diesel engines. I would say most cars are already port injection, since i don't think any new cars are sold with carburetors anymore. Even my 89 oldsmobile was port injected.
If you don't know what i'm referring to then just ask. You could've saved yourself from typing a couple of paragraphs on a subject that doesn't relate to what i typed.
Example of how Direct Fuel Injection works.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZgXqSj6Ef8
THe sh awd system was the first to offer tq splitting between different wheels but is a fwd bias system. Whats the point in having awd if it drives like a fwd car.
Also the new haldex and sti and evo awds offer tq splitting as well know and those are rwd bias except for the evo which is a 50/50
Which doesn't relate to performance engines as I asked, name a new honda performance engine since 2003.
A-vtec was suppose to be offered in the new tsx but wasn't because they couldnt get it to work in time. Check TOV and the honda press release from honda, they admitted it.
The mustang has been offer with OHC engines since 1974. So they have been offer OHC engines for 36yrs. The corvette engine and hemi engines are OHV.
The honda IMA is already rated below the Toyota and Volt hybrid system. Either way these aren't performance engines but emission and mpgs engines which i already stated honda has produced. You just typed up a example of what i already stipulated.
I don't know how your trying to proof my lack of knowledge, when half of your examples agree with what i stated.
You accuse me of lack of research and misinformation. It sounds like your the one that is uninformed.
Last edited by TemjinX2; Feb 6, 2010 at 02:19 AM.
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yeah i meant to say DI as well going back to 1925. Its the fuel injector at the top of the combustion chamber rather then in the intake plenum. I know what you are referring to. However, my point remains valid, why would you alter a production line and retool to move the injector to the top of the combustion chamber, when your current set up is working well enough?
I understand better atomization blah blah blah fuel economy blah blah blah but you have to take into account production costs labor cost and the increased cost of the injector itself. One of the key disadvantages (few as they are) of having the injector directly exposed to combustion is direct heat applied to the head of the injector. I would imagine that it would require much more expensive materials to compensate for that added stress, with the addition of the extra engineering cost of designing a new head which allows for the VTEC mechanism to work around the fuel injector. All this ads to increased retail value and that leads to a whole different topic of debate. Either way, Honda sprung a completely different feat of engineering with it's vtec system. End of story. If everyone is catching up, great. It's about time. Are there better cars out there? sure. Depending on consumer wants and needs. Do i think DI is better the the MPFI? It makes sense to progress to newer and more efficient technologies, but I can see why Honda would not focus on something such as implementing DI, instead choosing to improve what it can in the most economically and financially responsible way possible. Don't fix what ain't broke until the market demand warrants it.
I don't think i accused you of lack of research, or ignorance, I beleive i was referring to the guy that said gearbox was full of crap. I'm not saying your wrong for believing what you believe, that would be mighty facist, or radically islamic of me. Rather,I merely disagree with your statements and point of view. Nothing personal.
I understand better atomization blah blah blah fuel economy blah blah blah but you have to take into account production costs labor cost and the increased cost of the injector itself. One of the key disadvantages (few as they are) of having the injector directly exposed to combustion is direct heat applied to the head of the injector. I would imagine that it would require much more expensive materials to compensate for that added stress, with the addition of the extra engineering cost of designing a new head which allows for the VTEC mechanism to work around the fuel injector. All this ads to increased retail value and that leads to a whole different topic of debate. Either way, Honda sprung a completely different feat of engineering with it's vtec system. End of story. If everyone is catching up, great. It's about time. Are there better cars out there? sure. Depending on consumer wants and needs. Do i think DI is better the the MPFI? It makes sense to progress to newer and more efficient technologies, but I can see why Honda would not focus on something such as implementing DI, instead choosing to improve what it can in the most economically and financially responsible way possible. Don't fix what ain't broke until the market demand warrants it.
I don't think i accused you of lack of research, or ignorance, I beleive i was referring to the guy that said gearbox was full of crap. I'm not saying your wrong for believing what you believe, that would be mighty facist, or radically islamic of me. Rather,I merely disagree with your statements and point of view. Nothing personal.
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I guess we also lose track of the fact that Honda is not Ferrari and they do not plan on making the fastest cars around. The whole Honda mantra is build a car that is competitive with others in the market but environmentally responsible (i.e. low emissions fuel efficient) we bastardize them to make them quick. So i think ragging on them for not making a "performance" engine is kind of an unfair argument to begin with, it's kind of like saying, when was the last time you saw a quadraplegic run an 8 minute mile, or a retard solve a differential equation?
Last edited by Running Riot; Feb 6, 2010 at 06:07 AM.
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They have to stopped making anything especially performance wise. I am pretty sure that they will come out with another si in probably a couple years and also have a new motor to put in it.
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Are you surprised though? i mean the VTEC system took years to come up with. That rode out for 10 years then i-vtec will be around for a while so something HAS to come out and replace that eventually. If your about my age you've been driving for about 11 years or so of which maybe over half of that has been wrenching hondas. So for us, theres been quite a bit of change since we started driving around the vtec-ivtec transcendence. But for the old timers like the HASport people and the Hondata and skunk2 guys, people who've been around the scene for years, they understand that big changes in engine tech comes about slowly you know what I mean?
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Have you driven anything what wasn't fwd? Difference in full time awd system vs a part time is performance. Less understeer into a corner, more traction out of the corner. Also no torque steer. You can still get torque steer in a partial awd system until the computer kicks in.
Some of the differences between partial vs full time awd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooQRxlChvMw
The k20z3 is not a new engine..sorry. Its a k20a2 with drive by wire, different cams and a lsd. They had to put in the drive by wire so they could offer traction control.
perhaps that is my fault. The ohc was available in the 4 cylinder mustang correct? Could be wrong don't read up a lot on mustangs. The 4 cylinder dropped with the fox body when ford went to new edge styling or whatever bullshit they shell out. When you said the new mustangs were using VVT, I assumed you meant the V6 and 8s. I am 99% certain, all mustang 6s and 8s since it's creation were OHV. There has never been, to my knowledge, an OHC V6 or V8 mustang until as of late. Hence why I said it took them 30 years. I figured you were comparing engine options still around.
The corvette and hemi's have always been OHV.
Specs on the new mustang v6
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/30/2...-2009-preview/
Its called Ti-Vct
The Honda IMA system cannot work without the gas motor and the gas motor is running all the time.
The volt should be released later this yr. The new rumor is that the volt will be priced around 28-30k with heavy tax incentives.
If you look out side of your vtec world, you'll notice there a lot other manufacturers making great innovations in the auto industry.
Honda lost there way, they use to be pioneers. Now Honda is just trying to maintain what they have.
Last edited by TemjinX2; Feb 7, 2010 at 04:09 AM.
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Have you driven anything what wasn't fwd? Difference in full time awd system vs a part time is performance. Less understeer into a corner, more traction out of the corner. Also no torque steer. You can still get torque steer in a partial awd system until the computer kicks in.
Some of the differences between partial vs full time awd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooQRxlChvMw
Yes it does, so does the subaru system. Both systems can move 100% of tq to one wheel. Which doesn't really matter since the majority of the time the tq needs to go to the rear wheels, since they tend to lose traction more then the front for cars that have engines based on the front.
The k20z3 is not a new engine..sorry. Its a k20a2 with drive by wire, different cams and a lsd. They had to put in the drive by wire so they could offer traction control.
At least take 5seconds to just google check your answers. Both the v6 and v8 are SOHC.
The corvette and hemi's have always been OHV.
Specs on the new mustang v6
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/30/2...-2009-preview/
Its called Ti-Vct
Both the Toyota system and Volt system can run on battery alone that means when its on the battery the car uses 0 gallons of gas and 0 emissions. The Volt can go on electric further because it uses lithium ion batteries, not nickel like the prius.
The Honda IMA system cannot work without the gas motor and the gas motor is running all the time.
The volt should be released later this yr. The new rumor is that the volt will be priced around 28-30k with heavy tax incentives.
If you look out side of your vtec world, you'll notice there a lot other manufacturers making great innovations in the auto industry.
Right now, Honda is just trying to maintain what they have.
Some of the differences between partial vs full time awd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooQRxlChvMw
Yes it does, so does the subaru system. Both systems can move 100% of tq to one wheel. Which doesn't really matter since the majority of the time the tq needs to go to the rear wheels, since they tend to lose traction more then the front for cars that have engines based on the front.
The k20z3 is not a new engine..sorry. Its a k20a2 with drive by wire, different cams and a lsd. They had to put in the drive by wire so they could offer traction control.
At least take 5seconds to just google check your answers. Both the v6 and v8 are SOHC.
The corvette and hemi's have always been OHV.
Specs on the new mustang v6
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/30/2...-2009-preview/
Its called Ti-Vct
Both the Toyota system and Volt system can run on battery alone that means when its on the battery the car uses 0 gallons of gas and 0 emissions. The Volt can go on electric further because it uses lithium ion batteries, not nickel like the prius.
The Honda IMA system cannot work without the gas motor and the gas motor is running all the time.
The volt should be released later this yr. The new rumor is that the volt will be priced around 28-30k with heavy tax incentives.
If you look out side of your vtec world, you'll notice there a lot other manufacturers making great innovations in the auto industry.
Right now, Honda is just trying to maintain what they have.
so you got a merc (would explain your general *** hole demeanor) and you want to be condescending on the fwds. thats cool. to answer your question yes i've had several rwds.
82 mercury capri 302 750 double pump carb long tubes and pipes
98 4runner limited selectable 4wd
99 4runner limited 2wd
87 Porsche 944 NA
85.5 Porsche 944 NA/Turbo
so yeah i've had my share of rwd. and i've been outside my "vtec world" *******. From an enthusiats point of view absolutely prefer my steering and propulsion on different axles. From a practicality point of view, the minute the weather gets slick i'll take a fwd any day. unless i can have 4wd or awd. now, in dry conditions? i'd rather have a car, that wont drain me for fuel economy (such as double transmission drives).You live in california right? the fukc you know about inclament weather. Ever lived to western or upstate NY? Midwest? Colorado? Germany? It's interesting that in places like that, the majority of cars (not trucks) CARS sold are FWD (you can think that people everywhere drive subarus all you want.)
So again, from a practicality point of view, a car that drives like a grocery getter with the ability to vary power to 4 wheels is a practical choice.
gm has been releasing the volt "next year" since 5 years ago. heavy tax incentives my *** Obama nixed that when he got elected
. Along with bush's tax cuts. You keep holding your breath on that one buddy.Again, yes the new stangs are OHC but the previous generations did NOT have OHC in the V6 or V8s. Mustang GTs had pushrod engines (OHV) until 1998 when ford switched to the modular 281 4.6 SOHC V8s. The V6 3.8 232 mustang was ALSO OHV until the 97-98 face lift. wow thats almost what? 40 years of pushrod ford engines?
"At least take 5seconds to just google check your answers. " *******
.the 350 was pushrod until about roughly 2002 in camaros vettes etc. Some vortecs are still pushrod. Most are now OHC. The LS7 of the C6 vette is a hydraulic roller cam pushrod also. OHV. There are still plenty of OHV engines out there.
....and i am aware the k20z3 is not entirely new. But you asked what performance engines have they made since 2003? thats one. and there is quite a bit of difference between k20a2. the drive by wire is not for traction control solely, because you have trac control options on non dbw cars. the bdw has advantages from tunability to emissions to fuel economy to driver comfort. The k20z3 also had intake manifold variations, cam variations and tb differences. But again, you said since 2003, i figured you wanted an engine since 2003.
was there anything else?
Last edited by Running Riot; Feb 7, 2010 at 04:39 AM.
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sir there are a couple things i can pick at here. First of all, not EVERYONE beats the **** out of their cars like the majority of the people on this forum. The majority of people purchasing their vehicles aren't going to pull 60 on an off ramp. specifically in the inclement weather. That being said, why in **** would you want a rwd in adverse weather? you wouldn't. Why would you want an all wheel drive car in dry conditions if all you are doing is normal driving. aggressive driving aside. there is a reason why the majority of passenger cars are front wheel drive. practicality. better traction in slick conditions, less hp loss from crank to wheels etc.
so you got a merc (would explain your general *** hole demeanor) and you want to be condescending on the fwds. thats cool. to answer your question yes i've had several rwds.
82 mercury capri 302 750 double pump carb long tubes and pipes
98 4runner limited selectable 4wd
99 4runner limited 2wd
87 Porsche 944 NA
85.5 Porsche 944 NA/Turbo
so yeah i've had my share of rwd. and i've been outside my "vtec world" *******. From an enthusiats point of view absolutely prefer my steering and propulsion on different axles. From a practicality point of view, the minute the weather gets slick i'll take a fwd any day. unless i can have 4wd or awd. now, in dry conditions? i'd rather have a car, that wont drain me for fuel economy (such as double transmission drives).You live in california right? the fukc you know about inclament weather. Ever lived to western or upstate NY? Midwest? Colorado? Germany? It's interesting that in places like that, the majority of cars (not trucks) CARS sold are FWD (you can think that people everywhere drive subarus all you want.)
So again, from a practicality point of view, a car that drives like a grocery getter with the ability to vary power to 4 wheels is a practical choice.
gm has been releasing the volt "next year" since 5 years ago. heavy tax incentives my *** Obama nixed that when he got elected. Along with bush's tax cuts. You keep holding your breath on that one buddy.
82 mercury capri 302 750 double pump carb long tubes and pipes
98 4runner limited selectable 4wd
99 4runner limited 2wd
87 Porsche 944 NA
85.5 Porsche 944 NA/Turbo
so yeah i've had my share of rwd. and i've been outside my "vtec world" *******. From an enthusiats point of view absolutely prefer my steering and propulsion on different axles. From a practicality point of view, the minute the weather gets slick i'll take a fwd any day. unless i can have 4wd or awd. now, in dry conditions? i'd rather have a car, that wont drain me for fuel economy (such as double transmission drives).You live in california right? the fukc you know about inclament weather. Ever lived to western or upstate NY? Midwest? Colorado? Germany? It's interesting that in places like that, the majority of cars (not trucks) CARS sold are FWD (you can think that people everywhere drive subarus all you want.)
So again, from a practicality point of view, a car that drives like a grocery getter with the ability to vary power to 4 wheels is a practical choice.
gm has been releasing the volt "next year" since 5 years ago. heavy tax incentives my *** Obama nixed that when he got elected
. Along with bush's tax cuts. You keep holding your breath on that one buddy.How do you what other states I have lived in or driven in?
In case you didn't know, it also snows in California.
Again, yes the new stangs are OHC but the previous generations did NOT have OHC in the V6 or V8s. Mustang GTs had pushrod engines (OHV) until 1998 when ford switched to the modular 281 4.6 SOHC V8s. The V6 3.8 232 mustang was ALSO OHV until the 97-98 face lift. wow thats almost what? 40 years of pushrod ford engines?
perhaps that is my fault. The ohc was available in the 4 cylinder mustang correct? Could be wrong don't read up a lot on mustangs. The 4 cylinder dropped with the fox body when ford went to new edge styling or whatever bullshit they shell out. When you said the new mustangs were using VVT, I assumed you meant the V6 and 8s. I am 99% certain, all mustang 6s and 8s since it's creation were OHV. There has never been, to my knowledge, an OHC V6 or V8 mustang until as of late. Hence why I said it took them 30 years. I figured you were comparing engine options still around.
Wow, i don't even have to poke holes in any more of your assumptions, your just owning yourself.
"At least take 5seconds to just google check your answers. " *******
.the 350 was pushrod until about roughly 2002 in camaros vettes etc. Some vortecs are still pushrod. Most are now OHC. The LS7 of the C6 vette is a hydraulic roller cam pushrod also. OHV. There are still plenty of OHV engines out there.
....and i am aware the k20z3 is not entirely new. But you asked what performance engines have they made since 2003? thats one. and there is quite a bit of difference between k20a2. the drive by wire is not for traction control solely, because you have trac control options on non dbw cars. the bdw has advantages from tunability to emissions to fuel economy to driver comfort. The k20z3 also had intake manifold variations, cam variations and tb differences. But again, you said since 2003, i figured you wanted an engine since 2003.
was there anything else?
Honestly, I think you have trouble with reading comprehension. You already typed various paragraphs that doesn't relate to the what was being discussed.
You already type paragraphs that has no relevance in posting, since i already agreed with you on before you even posted it.
The fact your using personal attacks by calling me a *******, already shows that you have no factual evidence to contradict my statements and only shows your true ignorance.
Last edited by TemjinX2; Feb 9, 2010 at 11:33 AM.
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Ok guys chill out, they have not stopped anything. The z3 could of been the a2 but its not an a2 cause once you alter the block and head then its not considered that motor anymore. Its not the a2 cause it says z3 so basically there was a new motor made.
And they are still under the process. The mugen rr has the k20a but has been bored over to a 2.2 thus making it not the k20a anymore.
Honda has always been on the drawing board. And they always will cause if they dont then they will lose money and customers.
And they are still under the process. The mugen rr has the k20a but has been bored over to a 2.2 thus making it not the k20a anymore.
Honda has always been on the drawing board. And they always will cause if they dont then they will lose money and customers.
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I never said a majority of people abuse their cars. I also never said you should drive rwd. You asked why you would want a full awd system and I answered it.
I never said anything there was anything wrong about owning a fwd car. So i don't understand why you need defend owning a fwd car. Also, I believe there people that exist in this world that have lived in multiple states.
How do you what other states I have lived in or driven in?
In case you didn't know, it also snows in California.
Wow, i don't even have to poke holes in any more of your assumptions, your just owning yourself.
I'm glade you learned to use google.
Honestly, I think you have trouble with reading comprehension. You already typed various paragraphs that doesn't relate to the what was being discussed.
You already type paragraphs that has no relevance in posting, since i already agreed with you on before you even posted it.
The fact your using personal attacks by calling me a *******, already shows that you have no factual evidence to contradict my statements and only shows your true ignorance.
I never said anything there was anything wrong about owning a fwd car. So i don't understand why you need defend owning a fwd car. Also, I believe there people that exist in this world that have lived in multiple states.
How do you what other states I have lived in or driven in?
In case you didn't know, it also snows in California.
Wow, i don't even have to poke holes in any more of your assumptions, your just owning yourself.
I'm glade you learned to use google.
Honestly, I think you have trouble with reading comprehension. You already typed various paragraphs that doesn't relate to the what was being discussed.
You already type paragraphs that has no relevance in posting, since i already agreed with you on before you even posted it.
The fact your using personal attacks by calling me a *******, already shows that you have no factual evidence to contradict my statements and only shows your true ignorance.
i call you an *** hole because you are a big dumb *** hole.... in a benzino yo.
What I say doesn't relate to what your saying when it goes against your point. Hmmm Your "glade" i learned to use google? oh im sorry, was i the one that said only the vette and hemi had pushrods and that mustangs always had ovc? i believe that was you. soooo that would mean....? right.
It snows in california...... you live in Northern California do you? about the only place that sees REAL snowfall. Looked like you had summer tires on that benz of yours. Glad your prepared for the change of season.
Personal attacks? yeah. one gets pissed after dealing with blatant ignorance. repeatedly.
I agree with ^ that once you start changing things on the inside its no longer the same engine. The B16b and the b16a. Both are B16s but the b is a B18C block with modified internals. Basically a de-stroked b18. But it's not a b16a or a b18c so it gets a different assignment. Kinda the same think with the Ks. different parts make it a different motor.
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Re: D16 vs. B16 engines
Sorry to bump this but I came across this while Googling some stuff about D16.
First of all... I have experience with a few engines. Personally had a fully built K20/K24 and now I am building a D16 for my EK.
I am tired of kids giving opinions on how an engine is better than the other one. Everyone here and their mother has a B16 on their hatchy and all they got is good low end (because of gearing), after that almost every car rapes it (I used to rape B16 hatchies left and right with a stock 2006 Civic Si). That is all motor of course, and of course the kids around here. Realize that builds vary. One guy with a B16 can be way faster than the other depending on the build... hell, there are plenty of 12 sec all motor SOHCs. There is no discussion that the B16 is more technologically advanced than a SOHC, but D16 is way cheaper. Thanks to kids not wanting or knowing how to build D16's people like me are able to get D16's very cheap :-). If I finish my build it will be over 300whp and less than 700 dollars spent including the turbo itself and manual transmission.
The best engine for you is the one that will give you the power goals you need for the least amount of money. If you need 200whp to 250whp then stay with the D16. If you need more then consider building the D16 right or swapping for a B16. Personally I wouldn't do a B16... D16 is old school, and still haul *** if done right... they cost way less and if you blow your engine swap it in a matter of hours for another one... I have two D16's legit already and I just bought my EK 4 days ago... that's how available they are.
So instead of reading this argument of what engine is better, set up your power goal and research which one will get you there the cheapest way...
For those talking about the differences in K20, all of them have a few things that completely change, including transmission. The K20Z3 has the RBC manifold which is better than all except for the RRC which flows a bit better. Other than that are just less aggressive cams than RSX and late TSX.
The new TSX does have new pistons as well which offer better compression and have become a great option for cheap pistons + rods for those building franks.
If you want to go boost I would say def. build K but for the money you spend might as well build an LS1 on an F-Body. I have never been a fan of B series... IMHO K series put B series to shame.
If you still insist on going B series then build a turbo B20...
First of all... I have experience with a few engines. Personally had a fully built K20/K24 and now I am building a D16 for my EK.
I am tired of kids giving opinions on how an engine is better than the other one. Everyone here and their mother has a B16 on their hatchy and all they got is good low end (because of gearing), after that almost every car rapes it (I used to rape B16 hatchies left and right with a stock 2006 Civic Si). That is all motor of course, and of course the kids around here. Realize that builds vary. One guy with a B16 can be way faster than the other depending on the build... hell, there are plenty of 12 sec all motor SOHCs. There is no discussion that the B16 is more technologically advanced than a SOHC, but D16 is way cheaper. Thanks to kids not wanting or knowing how to build D16's people like me are able to get D16's very cheap :-). If I finish my build it will be over 300whp and less than 700 dollars spent including the turbo itself and manual transmission.
The best engine for you is the one that will give you the power goals you need for the least amount of money. If you need 200whp to 250whp then stay with the D16. If you need more then consider building the D16 right or swapping for a B16. Personally I wouldn't do a B16... D16 is old school, and still haul *** if done right... they cost way less and if you blow your engine swap it in a matter of hours for another one... I have two D16's legit already and I just bought my EK 4 days ago... that's how available they are.
So instead of reading this argument of what engine is better, set up your power goal and research which one will get you there the cheapest way...
For those talking about the differences in K20, all of them have a few things that completely change, including transmission. The K20Z3 has the RBC manifold which is better than all except for the RRC which flows a bit better. Other than that are just less aggressive cams than RSX and late TSX.
The new TSX does have new pistons as well which offer better compression and have become a great option for cheap pistons + rods for those building franks.
If you want to go boost I would say def. build K but for the money you spend might as well build an LS1 on an F-Body. I have never been a fan of B series... IMHO K series put B series to shame.
If you still insist on going B series then build a turbo B20...
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From: Gainesville, Your college town is weak.
Rep Power: 222 Re: D16 vs. B16 engines
I'd like to see one. Not bashing you or anything but I think that would be cool to see. I've seen plenty turbo SOHC in the 12s but I haven't seen one all motor.
you should find the thread on here on which everyone with a legit turbo build D15/16/17B16/17/18/20 has said, "anyone that thinks you can build a fast reliable turbo honda for less then 2000 is full of ****" I'm just saying, theres a multiple page thread of nothing but people listing all the mayhem and expenses undergone in their turbo builds.
a very good point and I totally agree with you.
Seeing as to how B18C5s with big cams head work high comp pistons every bolton possible machine work 1 layer HGs and lots and lots of tuning can only break 195-205 whp That's a stretch. I think I've read about one ITR doing 215-225 whp with stock bore back in 1997 and that was with a wild, unstreetable cam. There are some hitting more on non stock bore type r's that I know of. The most powerful single cam I have personally seen is this guy MiMiKSi on honda-tech. He put out 145whp with the works and can barely drive it on the street.
I could be wrong but I beleive the B16 is older then the D16 or at least the same age. First B16 was in 1988 in the DA6. First SOHC D16 was the D16A6 in the CRX in 88 or 89.
I think at this stage you can find a B16 or B18 anywhere. I swapped out a B16 for a B18 in a couple hours too. I bought three B series in a month. It's 2010, the B series is like the 350. It's old and everywhere.
cheap isn't always better. but you are right research research research.
That's kind of unfair. Of course the K series will but the B series to shame, its bigger and more advanced. The B series is 22 years old man. It's probably older then you. It's almost as old as I am. LS1s are great in their own right but have their downfalls too. Like we say with shotguns, different chokes for different folks. Some think it's fun to rape LS1s in B16 swapped CRXs and they can get 30 mph doing it
. K20A3s, granted its a crap motor, can be swapped for around a grand and is a K series platform to work from.
oh god man you picked the most difficult hectic irritating and expensive b series to boost.
everyone has a different preference to what they want to swap. I chose the B series because of it's almost infinite tuning possibilities and its reliability. It launched the import scene, it can make lots of power, can rev to infinity, is relatively strong and is a great stepping stone. Even in boost applications. I am also completely NA and prefer to stay that way. Honestly, IMO I can respect a guy a whole lot more for building power the hard way then just slapping on a spool. I've probably spent more money on my NA then most people do on a turbo for what? MAYBE 160 whp? 170 if I'm lucky? But I built it, I tuned and peiced it together and i can run down some GTi's and 4G eclipses in town, if they're slow, stock, or are driven by lousy drivers (women)
but my power delivery is smooth, and my reliability kicks ***.
It all comes down to what the driver is looking for.
I could be wrong but I beleive the B16 is older then the D16 or at least the same age. First B16 was in 1988 in the DA6. First SOHC D16 was the D16A6 in the CRX in 88 or 89.
but you are right research research research. . K20A3s, granted its a crap motor, can be swapped for around a grand and is a K series platform to work from. oh god man you picked the most difficult hectic irritating and expensive b series to boost.everyone has a different preference to what they want to swap. I chose the B series because of it's almost infinite tuning possibilities and its reliability. It launched the import scene, it can make lots of power, can rev to infinity, is relatively strong and is a great stepping stone. Even in boost applications. I am also completely NA and prefer to stay that way. Honestly, IMO I can respect a guy a whole lot more for building power the hard way then just slapping on a spool. I've probably spent more money on my NA then most people do on a turbo for what? MAYBE 160 whp? 170 if I'm lucky? But I built it, I tuned and peiced it together and i can run down some GTi's and 4G eclipses in town, if they're slow, stock, or are driven by lousy drivers (women)
but my power delivery is smooth, and my reliability kicks ***. It all comes down to what the driver is looking for.
Low and slow!
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From: Marion, NC
Rep Power: 214 Re: D16 vs. B16 engines
So there are alot more k series motors than we thought lol there is alot more. Here is a link that leads to all the k series motors in the world and what car they go in and the specs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine#K_Series
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine#K_Series
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From: TN
Rep Power: 366 Re: D16 vs. B16 engines
glad to see you have spare engines, from what i have read from cheap turbo setups... good luck.
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From: TN
Rep Power: 366 Re: D16 vs. B16 engines
Difference in full time awd system vs a part time is performance. Less understeer into a corner, more traction out of the corner. Also no torque steer. You can still get torque steer in a partial awd system until the computer kicks in.
Some of the differences between partial vs full time awd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooQRxlChvMw
Some of the differences between partial vs full time awd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooQRxlChvMw
)I just wanted to say that a friend have a part time AWD, and he had a hard time with the sudden change in behaviour when the AWD kicks in during his autoX runs, so might not be best solution either. second hand information here, so take it with a grain of salt!
Last edited by sdaidoji; Apr 23, 2010 at 07:26 PM.
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From: Gainesville, Your college town is weak.
Rep Power: 222 Re: D16 vs. B16 engines
there is no such thing as a "cheap" turbo build.
The argument has always been "oh yeah for what it costs to swap in a B series you can mount a turbo to your d15b automatic...."
Sure, I spent about what a turbo costs swapping in a b series but my b series hasn't blown up and is TURN KEY reliable. Which is more then I can say for a lot of budget turbo builds.
Secondly, if you already have a b series swapped car cams bolt ons and nitrous puts you ahead of most mild turbos with more reliability..... and less ca$h
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Rep Power: 320 Re: D16 vs. B16 engines
don't want to restart the fight, so chill down (not even sure how it started from what i read, but...), just wanted to say that a friend have a part time AWD, and he had a hard time with the sudden change in behaviour when the AWD kicks in during his autoX runs, so might not be best solution either. not sure, i did not drive his car anyways.
Your describing a partial awd that kicked in when the ecu detected a lost in traction in a autox event which unpredictably changed the handling characteristics of the car versus a symmetrical awd system which is on all the time. Therefore would make the handling characteristics most consistent.
Hence why you see a lot of evo's and sti's often placing near the top finishers in autox events.
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From: TN
Rep Power: 366 Re: D16 vs. B16 engines
huh? your pretty much supporting what i was was saying that full time awd drive is better then partial awd.
Your describing a partial awd that kicked in when the ecu detected a lost in traction in a autox event which unpredictably changed the handling characteristics of the car versus a symmetrical awd system which is on all the time. Therefore would make the handling characteristics most consistent.
Hence why you see a lot of evo's and sti's often placing near the top finishers in autox events.
Your describing a partial awd that kicked in when the ecu detected a lost in traction in a autox event which unpredictably changed the handling characteristics of the car versus a symmetrical awd system which is on all the time. Therefore would make the handling characteristics most consistent.
Hence why you see a lot of evo's and sti's often placing near the top finishers in autox events.
I edited previous post, sorry about any wrong impressions it gave!
Last edited by sdaidoji; Apr 23, 2010 at 07:27 PM.
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Hi All!
Im a new user Of Civic forum,and i register because i coldn't stay out of this topic!
So backing to the topic,d16 vs B16....
ok,i dont know exactely the engines powers i will refer,so please sorry,i will just give my ideia...i will now put the fire again lol
ok,so i give reason to the D940...of course B series engines ALWAYS will be B series engines,and for you all i really prefer a B engine just because D ins't so good...BUT,and i say again,BUT lol...in my opinion booth engines can be almost identicalls..i will explain..
d16a9 power- 130hp
B16A2 power- 160hp
now,what make this difference??? The Head profile and the camshaft profiles... put a camshaft with the specifications of a B16 in a D16,then give to the D16 more about 1000rpm,ya,because the pic power of a d16 its about 7200 and the b16 its in 8200 more or less that...of course the D16 head ins't so good,and that's the only reason D series can't be so good in HIGH rpm,but in LOW and MED rpm you bet D16 will be more stronger,that because of the D16 stroke ratio and the small head profile...
now,i will give one other example..
how mutch hp has a stock B20??? OHHHHH...yaaaa...134hp i think...but isn't a 2.0????D16 isn't a 1.6 almost with thats hp??...so...B20 is crap just because doesn't have good Stock power also??
you see the point?? like D940 said and with reason,both engines are good!!
D16 has a great point in his favor,LOW price costs!!
B16 win points in the High rpm response,but what causes that its the big head ports and the agressive cams profiles..
IF you could put a B16 head in a D16 you would still considere a D16 crapy??well...of course D series have some "home work" to give him reability,like the oil pump that ins't so perfect in stock,but the ideia i want to give its that ALL engines can be GREAT engines,its just a metter of good work on it...
now i will put a turbo on booth like it was sayd too in this topic...D series has the STRONGEST cilinders sleeves on stock engines...you can find in youtube videos of D16 engine with 600hp with stock sleeves,will a B16 hold that???humm...maybe yes,but D16 will do it more safety...with force indution that part of big ports or smal ports of the B and D engines loses a little in consideration,because with boost its the turbo pressure that says what air goes to the engine,so with a same cams profiles in both engines the power will be praticly the same...dont use "vocal violence",i think D940 didn't mean to offend anyone,has im not trying to do it soo.he just wanted to tell you that all engines can be good with the same cronstuction...
Sorry my BADDDD english,but im portuguese..
Anyways,i really like to ready this topic.
Regards to you all
Im a new user Of Civic forum,and i register because i coldn't stay out of this topic!
So backing to the topic,d16 vs B16....
ok,i dont know exactely the engines powers i will refer,so please sorry,i will just give my ideia...i will now put the fire again lol
ok,so i give reason to the D940...of course B series engines ALWAYS will be B series engines,and for you all i really prefer a B engine just because D ins't so good...BUT,and i say again,BUT lol...in my opinion booth engines can be almost identicalls..i will explain..
d16a9 power- 130hp
B16A2 power- 160hp
now,what make this difference??? The Head profile and the camshaft profiles... put a camshaft with the specifications of a B16 in a D16,then give to the D16 more about 1000rpm,ya,because the pic power of a d16 its about 7200 and the b16 its in 8200 more or less that...of course the D16 head ins't so good,and that's the only reason D series can't be so good in HIGH rpm,but in LOW and MED rpm you bet D16 will be more stronger,that because of the D16 stroke ratio and the small head profile...
now,i will give one other example..
how mutch hp has a stock B20??? OHHHHH...yaaaa...134hp i think...but isn't a 2.0????D16 isn't a 1.6 almost with thats hp??...so...B20 is crap just because doesn't have good Stock power also??
you see the point?? like D940 said and with reason,both engines are good!!
D16 has a great point in his favor,LOW price costs!!
B16 win points in the High rpm response,but what causes that its the big head ports and the agressive cams profiles..
IF you could put a B16 head in a D16 you would still considere a D16 crapy??well...of course D series have some "home work" to give him reability,like the oil pump that ins't so perfect in stock,but the ideia i want to give its that ALL engines can be GREAT engines,its just a metter of good work on it...
now i will put a turbo on booth like it was sayd too in this topic...D series has the STRONGEST cilinders sleeves on stock engines...you can find in youtube videos of D16 engine with 600hp with stock sleeves,will a B16 hold that???humm...maybe yes,but D16 will do it more safety...with force indution that part of big ports or smal ports of the B and D engines loses a little in consideration,because with boost its the turbo pressure that says what air goes to the engine,so with a same cams profiles in both engines the power will be praticly the same...dont use "vocal violence",i think D940 didn't mean to offend anyone,has im not trying to do it soo.he just wanted to tell you that all engines can be good with the same cronstuction...
Sorry my BADDDD english,but im portuguese..
Anyways,i really like to ready this topic.
Regards to you all
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