P40vic

Hey Greg, if you've got sportlines and a front camber kit, I'll bet the front camber bolt has been set to remove the negative camber that comes with lowering and get back to the stock 0 camber setting. If that's the case, that's the exact opposite of what you want. Put a stock bolt back in and you'll probably get -1.5 camber and who knows, maybe a second or more on the course. Check out the alignment info on the dropped civic on the SPC site for some numbers. I'll bet it'll oversteer more too, without doing anything to the rear bar. Free speed.

P40vic

On second thought, it might understeer more with your springs and a small front bar
More negative camber>more front grip>more weight transfer>more roll>bottom out front and understeer.

Check with Zzyzx on that, I seem to remember him describing this issue. Still bound to be better than 0 camber.

Bored and spending too much time on the web tonight...

robbclark1

iTrader: (8)

I think you should spend some time reading up on understeer and oversteer and vehicle dynamics. I am not an expert, but I know some of your statements are not correct. I don't want to be mean, just telling you.

For starters having a large front roll bar and stiff front springs will do very little for our car. It has set up to understeer, especially the 01s. It is better to have a large difference between front and rear. Boiler is running i think 350f/500r. It would be even better to have 350f/650r like Progress coils. But that is getting high in the spring rates.

As for a front sway bar, the smaller the more oversteer, albeit increased body roll. Zzyzx is running a 15.6mm front and 25mm rear. If he were to go to a thicker front sway then he would ADD oversteer. You want oversteer in autox or neutral.

Secondly, more negative camber is better. When you take a fast corner, the weight transfers forcing the wheel straight up. If you have more negative camber you have more contact patch (good), whereas if you have 0 camber you are running on the sidewall (bad).

http://www.sentra.net/tech/garage/suspension.php <- Kojima is a god, read him...

P40vic

I appreciate your feedback Robbclark, but I have indeed read through a bunch of suspension books, read Kojima, modeled up the civic front suspension on CAD, etc. I'm an engineer, this is what I do, but I'm still learning and by no means an expert nor am I a good driver.

I think you're misinterpreting my front stiff comment tho. The old civics gain camber when they roll, ours lose it. Take the front bar off an old civic and it'll roll more but not lose camber. Take the front bar off ours and it'll roll more, lose camber, hit bumpstops and understeer (been there done that) So stiff front via bars/springs whatever to minimize roll/camber loss, but then even stiffer rear to get rear weight bias, oversteer, tire lift etc. Boiler's 375 front spring is dang stiff for a strut, but the motion ratio in the rear reduces the 500 rate to maybe 200-250 wheel rate. He's got negative camber and lots of rear bar, looks darn fun to me!

But I also suspect that driver preference makes a difference on all this also.

Not trying to be a PITA...

P40vic

Hey Robbclark - your setup is exactly what I'm talking about! Looks good to me. Stiff front springs, 25 front bar, stiffer rear, seems like it probably oversteers nicely and works really good? And I bet there's no way it'll bottom out in a corner.

I shut up and go away now, not trying to offend anybody.

Zzyzx

You guys are forgeting a couple of things. of at least both of you have valid points, but dissagree on which is more important.

but any way, heres my take on the Front anti-roll bar question...

THe problem we are dealing with here is the lack of camber gain caused by our strut suspension, and there are a couple of ways of dealing with it . One, P40vic's Idea, would be to add a larger front anti-roll bar to reduce body roll to an acceptible level, and then adjust the handling balance back to "oversteer prone" with stiffer rear springs or larger rear anti-roll bars. The problem with a large front anti-rollbar setup is that you end up loosing alot of corner exit acceleration grip (Thanks to how anti-rollbars work and our lack of an LSD). Personally I feel that it would be better to run stiffer springs on the nose to control body roll, and have a Small if any front anti-roll bar to maximize corner exit grip. Then compensate for the added understeer with rear end adjsutments. Simmilar to my friends CSP preped CRX (Long since sold, but he won seveal national tours with it). He was running 1000 LB/in springs on the front, 900LB/in on the rear, a larger rear adjustible anti-roll bar on the back and an CRX HF front anti-roll bar (about 10mm). Not that you'd want to run such stiff springs on a car with street tires. But the concept should remain the same for us. Not to mention it would not make for the most comfortable ride on the street... Seems to be that Larger anti-roll bars + soft springs is more for a comprimise to retain some resemblance of a nice ride on the street... but when it comes to getting 10/10ths out of the car, ride quallity doesnt mean much.

robbclark1

iTrader: (8)

alrighty, we are all clear now...Thanks for both of you guys input! increase the learning curve...

P40vic, you aren't offending me. Just civil conversation. There is always something new to learn

P40vic

And thanks for accepting my opinions, it's interesting to have some dialog on this stuff!

Zzyzx - I agree with you that big front spring rate & small/no front bar would be optimum for roll control as well as corner exit grip, and especially good as far as front grip loss when you hit a bump mid corner. You're right that my big bar/soft spring is a compromise. I'm also wondering if it is going to be seriously upset by a mid-corner bump due to the loss of right/left independence and "rocking" the bar gives. We'll see.

SevenCyrus

iTrader: (1)

damn, im glad the Auto X/Road Racing section is picking up again. I was, and im sure justin was, tired of asking him questions all the time on AIM.

SevenCyrus

iTrader: (1)

Haha, wow, i went to micky D's to get some grub, as im coming back the back way with deserted roads, im coming to a curve, i told myself, lets just brake with the left foot, so im about to start breaking, and i tell myself "just ease on it, see how it feels" then BAM, i slam the break and the car shoots forwards and u hear the gear starting to stall, lol. Amazing, even after i told my foot to ease on it, the muscle memory thought it was shift time i guess, and slammed on it. Good times

Zzyzx

Ya, the first couple of times you try left foot braking are real *** puckering experiances...

Boilermaker1

iTrader: (16)

Wait until the first time you do it in a drive by wire car and the throttle shuts down on you. You got your foot firmly planted in the gas and the car says no... talk about a reversal of acceleration.

SevenCyrus

iTrader: (1)

haha, so do you guys give gas while braking?

Zzyzx

Depends... when I'm coming in to a turn where I don't need to down shift for I ushually left foot brake. That way my transition between full acceleration and full braking is that much smoother, because I start to apply the brakes before i actually come off the gas. (you come off the gas as you apply the brakes) once I'm in the turn then I can play the brakes off the gas or vice versa to make the car turn the way I want it to. add a little brake to get the car to oversteer, add throttle to settle it down... ect ect ect.. with a little pratice you can do all sorts of things with the car mid turn.

bgoetz

iTrader: (1)

Have those pads warped your rotors yet?? I just put mine on about two weeks ago and those things get damn hot!!! So hot infact that you can't touch the rim, but my god do they make a big difference.

BTW: did you follow the break-in directions provided or do it the way that you would normally do new pads?

bgoetz

iTrader: (1)

IMO if you want to win meets with a civic then buy some racing tires and a different set of rims and run H stock.

However, I am a Hypocrite and run STS LOL.
Everyones preferences are a bit different on equiptment, I have:
tien Basic dampers
neuspeed front strut bar
H&R 20mm rear sway bar
spc rear camber
eibach front camber
215/40/17 yokahama ES 100s
alignment -.5 rear and -1.5 front
If I were to change anything I would get the tien ss so I can adjust the shocks, and I would get Falken azenis becuase it seems like they are as close to a race tire (without being one) as you can buy. I am also changing the alignment so it is closer to boilermakers.

The biggest things are the alignment, tire pressure, and just plain driver skill. You can go to belle tire for the alignment and take a good digital pressure gauge to mess with pressure. But it takes practice and natural talent to have driver skill.

goodtimes

iTrader: (2)

hello,

hear is what im going to run with:
B&G s3 coilovers
eibach sway bar kit
power slot rotors and HP+ Pads
staneless steal brake lines

my ? is i have an auto tranny and i have not seen anyone sayin anything about how to run auto on the track so would it be ok to run a auto on the track?

ps i dont have tires yes b/c i saveing up for good ones..

cdmx

iTrader: (7)

What?!

APC makes Quality racing equiptment

Bolt on and Go

Go FAST

SevenCyrus

iTrader: (1)

^ your joking right? lol

Boilermaker1

iTrader: (16)

Autocross, its probably fine.
A road track... get a tranny cooler. You're gonna need it.

goodtimes

iTrader: (2)

as far as rims an tires go im thinkin of runing on some lightweight 15 by 7 rim, what would be the best sidewall hight for auto Xin.

SevenCyrus

iTrader: (1)

Why do i see all the scoobys, evos, bmw, they are all running with 17" wheels, alot of them volk to, lol. But why 17"?

Boilermaker1

iTrader: (16)

Because you can get wide sticky tires that fit on 17" rims. 235s, 255s, etc...
You can't run anything smaller than 17 on an Evo, there's no real good 16" street tire that fits a WRX and most BMWs these days are coming with 17's or bigger. You'll still see e30s running 15" wheels (and some 16s and some 14s).

Zzyzx

^^ Its allways a kick to see an E30 M3 sporting 15X8" wheels... Love those cars.

PoorCollegeBoy

iTrader: (2)

Chris- thanks a lot for the advice. Sorry it took so long to respond, but my gf just got back from a three week trip to Europe so I havent had any time to get online. Honestly, I dont really know a lot about suspension dynamics and that is the main reason I started this thread. I wanted to start a discussion on the kind of setups that work the best for our car. On that note, despite all my reading I am still pretty clueless about camber adjustments and would love to have your help adjusting my camber. Will you be at the DIA event this coming weekend?

cdmx

iTrader: (7)

Who's Joking?

SevenCyrus

iTrader: (1)

Im confused

nindoo

iTrader: (1)

Have you seen toyota echos in Auto X?

Zzyzx

about what?



Yup, Seemd to do pretty well in the turns thanks to it being so light and small... but its biggest handycap would be the super tall gearing.

Day_Tripper

Woohoo auto x this sunday for me!!! bleh track duty is going to suck in this 95+ degree weather... woohoo taning time