Thaik

So as the title implies, after putting new all-season tires on my car, Civic 2004 DX, I noticed the car pulls either to the left or to the right when braking especially or accelerating on uneven surface, it pulls in either direction depending on the road surface. I have to hold the steering wheel straight or it will really deviate into the next lane, it doesn't pull very hard, but enough to keep my attention on the steering wheel.

This doesn't happen at all on my winter tires.

Here are the parts:
All-season Tires:
New General Tire Altimax HP 195R6015 on new steel rims (after market)
Winter Tires:
General Tire Altimax HP 185R7514 on steel rims (came with the car used, don't know if OEM or not)

Now about the all-seasons tire performance themselves, I love them!
Very high level of grip, very quiet, very comfortable!

Now this means that the tire themselves are in good shape. Alignment has been done few month ago and the car goes in a straight line perfectly.

Car does not pull on smooth even roads.

What I mean by uneven surface is what I could describe as lateral undulation on the road caused by heavy vehicle tires, or simply a road either inclined to the left or right.

This is my first time driving on a good high grip tires like the Altimax HP, do high grip all behave this way? I find that weird, but I could live with it.

I also have to mention the tires aren't installed on OEM rims. I hope the pulling is normal.
If not, then I'm afraid it might damage the tire by creating uneven wear, I want to protect my investment.

Thanks!

TiggerDX

iTrader: (1)

I had several sets of Yokahama's that did the same thing. In San Diego and Las Vegas they really followed the grooves in the road. It was like someone else was steering.
I have Michelin's on my Civic now and no longer have that issue. Or it could be the roads are better in Oregon and Idaho. I think it's the Michelin's.

Thaik

So it is indeed the tires and not the rims?

Yeah, the grooves is the word, sorry, english is not my first language

I hope it's just the tire design, not a defect from the tire, nor an incompatible rim with the car since it is not OEM.

ezone

If the front toe is set to 0.00* (no toe out)
If the aftermarket rims don't have excessive offset,
then it's most likely the tires.


AFAIK Honda never put General tires on from the factory.



Most cars tend to want to follow in the ruts in a road.........well I had a set of Pirellis on the front of my lowrider that caused it to try to climb up out of the ruts. Stuck like glue on a flat street but squirrelly as all getout on a road with ruts.


I will spend perfectly good money on Michelins. Personal preference.

Thaik

The front is indeed 0.00*

What kind of offset would position the wheel/tire in a way that it would pull the car in a certain direction?
Negative or positive?

AFAIK Honda never put General tires on from the factory.
Still, does that mean we have to stick to OEM tires?

So they might be nothing with my tire (defect or not), it's just a matter of design and how it goes with the car?

Also, I managed to solve a problem of vibration at high speed when I had the tires installed on another set of rims, other after market rims that I bought at at Wal-Mart.

The garage diagnosed that the inside of the rim didn't match perfectly with the wheel hub of the car, thus causing the vibration.
He offered me to buy another set of 4 from him that would fit perfectly. After removing the tires from the rims and installing onto his rims, he realized that the lug nuts didn't perfectly match with his after market rim stud holes, and that it was probably contributing to the vibration. He said Honda OEM lug nuts didn't fit universal rim, and sold me universal lug nut that would fit the new rim,

Unfortunately, I lost a great deal of money by buying Wal-Mart rims.
What I want to know is if it was actually the rims, the lug nuts, or both of them, that way I can know if it was a waste to spend money on another set of rim.

The pulling also did happen with the other sets of rim, haven't really measured the offset though.

Also, since putting new rims, the rear passenger drum/drum seems to be rubbing on the rim when making a moderate to hard left turn since it puts weight and stress on it.
The rubbing noise is kind of annoying, and not reassuring, although I know that the wheel lug nuts are tighten correctly.
It did not do it on my winter tires set, nor does it happen on the rear driver side drum/hub.


As always, thank you for your help.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

following grooves i would think is natural.
some tires have a little more stiffness in the SW, making them follow the groove more than a tire that deforms more.

ezone

Yours isn't pulling in a certain direction, right?
It pulls BOTH directions.



Since you asked....
Anything that changes the designed geometry of the suspension could cause unintended or unwanted effects.


Changing the offset of the wheel to move the tire outward can cause what you described, the "wandering" effect. Road forces can cause the tire to turn the steering wheel.
Changing the height of the tire can alter these angles too.

There is a lot more to it than just that, but I'm trying to keep it simple.
Oh no. You are free to choose whatever you want.

FYI there are plenty of issues with some of the tires that Honda put on some cars too.True. Hondas lugnut design is not commonly used by all the rest, and is not compatible.

Nobody here has enough info to tell you that with any certainty.
BUT:
I'm guessing there is a problem that needs addressed.


SDAIDOJI? Any more input here?

Thaik

Yours isn't pulling in a certain direction, right?
It pulls BOTH directions.
Yes indeed.

About the wheel offset, anyone knows this car's OEM wheel offset?
I'd like to measure mine and compare, see if there's a difference.

Also, since putting new rims, the rear passenger drum/drum seems to be rubbing on the rim when making a moderate to hard left turn since it puts weight and stress on it.

The rubbing noise was happening with the previous set of rims (not winter set) and the one I currently have.

It didn't happen with my winter wheels and it doesn't happen on the rear driver side.
Anything related to the hub/drum & rim?
Hub/drum only?
Just rim?

I know I'm asking a lot.
Just giving out as much info as I can to gather as much clue as possible.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

OE offset is around +38mm, selection of different ones would depend on wheel width (tire rack could select a wheel that way *excluded the factors for lowering*, of course...)

if the previous set of rims were rubbing and this one is not, i think either the lug nut and the wheel/hub fitment could explain this.

oh, wait, new ones rubbing too? recheck tire rack what they recommend for stock height suspension, same width wheel.

if not the case, it could be the wheel have something protruding that rubs on the drum? It's not a big brake, after all.

have you disassembled wheel to look at?

ezone

That makes me doubt it is a wheel fitment issue then.

It's probably a brake noise instead. What has been done to them?

The original rear drum brake shoes can last well past 200k for the majority of the cars and drivers I see here. They just don't wear out like the fronts do. Maybe 5:1?
The complaints I see tend to begin shortly after someone does a rear brake job with aftermarket parts.

Rust buildup in the lip of the drum, contacting the backing plate as the drum spins?

Thaik

have you disassembled wheel to look at?
Unfortunately, I haven't disassemble the wheel in order to look at the wheel and the drum/hub assembly.

That makes me doubt it is a wheel fitment issue then.
I may not have been clear enough about the wheel.
Until now, for the new tires, I have tried two set of aftermarket rim, and they both cause that rubbing noise at the same wheel/side.

It's probably a brake noise instead. What has been done to them?
Nothing at all, haven't replaced the drum, the shoe, or anything in the spring assembly.

Rust buildup in the lip of the drum, contacting the backing plate as the drum spins?
It could be that, but that didn't happen with the winter tire set (another set of wheel, the one that came with the car when I bought it, not sure if OEM though).
Or maybe because the tires have more grip, the car sustains more stress, thus causing new noise to occur?

ezone

JMHO..... YMMV:

Why not?

You have a new problem (noise), and you tossed more tires and wheels at it....with no change. You never fixed the new problem.

This new problem is newer than those tires.

Sounds to me that the noise complaint needs checked out. It (PROBABLY) won't be tire and wheel related.


None of us can see or hear what you are dealing with.
We only have your (typed) description to work with.

Thaik

You have a new problem (noise), and you tossed more tires and wheels at it....with no change. You never fixed the new problem.

Well, actually, the noise itself was my primary concern, it was the vibration at high speed.
Which is now solved with the new set of rims and lug nuts, the only issue left is the rubbing noise and the tire pulling (if that still a real problem).

This new problem is newer than those tires.
Actually, it started at the same time I put those tires on, along with new rims.
Old rims are staying with the winter tires.

We only have your (typed) description to work with.
I know, I'm not asking for a solution, just gathering clues and information.
The problem is very recent, there's still plenty of snow here, gotta wait until everything melts. Don't feel like giving that work to a garage yet.

But thanks for everything guys, I'm very grateful.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

could it actually be rubbing in the fender/ wheel wells?
when you have a chance to remove the wheel, grab a pic of what you see
don't worry too much with english, it's my third language as well :P as long as it communicates key points and yer good enough

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

forgot to ask until now, but what wheel specs do you have? 15xwidth? offset?

if you don't have the papers, they might be *hopefully* stamped someplace in the wheel

Thaik

could it actually be rubbing in the fender/ wheel wells?
Really?
I didn't really lower my car, besides, it's even higher than stock due to Tokico HP's shock and oem spring.

The ride height is maybe 1/2inch to an inch higher than stock.
The wheel isn't bigger either.

Same total diameter.
195R6015 = 185R7014


Hehe, If only I actually had english friend's, english would be a more natural language for me

ezone

All I get here is Redneck and Walmart.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

bwaha!
sorry, coulda not remember what setup you had, thaik, you have so many troubles in yer car that it's hard to keep up...

remember to snag pics when you remove the wheel and we can go from there, K?

Thaik

Yeah... lots of problem it seems, perhaps it is because I put a lot of attention and focus to them too.

Average joes just drive without thinking about anything that's going with the car. "Ignorance is a bliss" I guess.

About the original topic of this thread.

I just came here because I wanted to marked this thread as SOLVED, but I can't find a way to edit title. smh

Alright, the issue about the car being pulled to the right/left, the fact that I hard such a hard time keeping the car straight on uneven roads, and the fact that I always had to make steering corrections (I mean seriously? Not even racing) to keep the car where I wanted to go.

Well, the problem is solved now that I have transferred these tires on Honda (Actually Acura EL) OEM alloy wheels. Now that alloy wheels makes a big difference, it's more because of the fact that it is a within OEM specifications.

Like ezone said, it's probably due the offset and also the wheel being poorly design.
The wheel center bore doesn't even have a regular circular shape! Back at the place where I did the installation, they said that because of that, the wheel couldn't seat properly against the wheel hub.

Now the steering wheel and steering feel is much more neutral, balanced and not erratic to go either directions as it used to be. It is generally much more stable at both low and high speed. I am now much more confident going faster.
I couldn't understand why I had such a hard time keeping the car in my lane, let alone keeping it straight on highways.

I also realized that it also changed the stance of the car, back then, the wheel wasn't aligned flush with the body, but pushed back inward, too much positive offset?

The way the tire seated against the wheel was weird, instead of having a flat sidewall, the sidewall was flexed on itself and it made it seemed like the tire was under inflated.

Now the tire profile has a much nicer profile and stance to it. It is flatter and it even affects the way the car drive. Now whenever I make quick turn or if I go into a corner carrying quite some speed, the tire actually makes a screeching sound when it never did before, it seems to me that back then, the tire flexed laterally instead of gripping the road flat, which also explains the pronounced body roll.

Now it corners much flatter.

Moral of the story.
Never ever buy cheap aftermarket wheels, thinking you might save a few bucks. You won't!

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

wow...
good info!
Glad you have this sorted out now, thaik!

kinakoes2

Nice -- thanks for updating, Thaik!

Just imagine how many other Civeeks will avoid problems with their wheels, just finding this thread. Great info.

Thaik

I'm glad and happy that it will!

Another thing, just to clarify, the tires does pull a little bit on these uneven roads but that's normal in my opinion, especially compared to winter tires.
These are pretty good tires, that will grip, and be predictable whenever you start losing traction and it takes a lot before you do.

While it does pull, it doesn't pull that hard as it used to be, I used to be holding the steering wheel with both hands whenever I drove on these uneven roads, both at low and high speed! Now I can cruise leisurely and think about other stuff other than keeping the car straight!

Thaik

Another thing I'd like to say is that if you're ever tempted to go with NON-OEM steel rims or whatever aftermarket wheels.

Be sure that the following specs match:

Bolt pattern: 4X100
Center bore: 56.1mm
Offset: +45

I believe bore is the most important, because you'll most likely easily find a wheel with that same bolt pattern but chances are it won't be the exact same bore diameter. This is really important since I've learned personally that lesson. Your wheels are not only supported by your studs, but it is mostly the center hub that keeps your wheel in alignment with the chassis and this is what sustain most of the car weight and vertical movements. Your studs are only there to keep your wheels from being pulled away from the car whenever your turning or cornering. I heard that if the wheels aren't supported by the center bore, it could bent or break the studs.

Offset is not as important, unless you go too far from OEM specs, it will probably slightly change the handling dynamics, but it is not as important as the center bore. This is what keeps your wheels seated on your car's wheel hubs.

The following picture below might help.
Took it from Inspector1 from DriveAccord.net Forum