racoon_assasin

Okay, I've had so many thoughts running through my head lately. I love my 2k2 Civ EX like no one's business. I have installed AEM v2 Intake, DC Sports Front-Upper Strut bar, and AEM Underdrive Pullys (I know someone back home who has an impact wrench), as well as 16" Enkei OR52's wrapped w/ 205/55 TOYO Proxes 4's. I plan to also purchase Eibach sportline springs, (possibly) Tokico blues, and Progress front and rear sway bars and camber adjustment kit. Now that you know what I have and will get, on to my dilema. I've been reading a lot about turbo's and swaps lately, and in fact just finished reading an 8 page thread that someone posted asking which is better, swaps or turbos. I got some info from it, but it was mostly 3 or 4 guys swapping insults until they realized that they all liked the same kind of BMW and talked about that for a few posts. From the research I did on forced induction, Dezod's stage one turbo kit seems inticing (http://dezod.com/pd_dezod_motorsports.cfm) and I was planning on purchasing it this winter and installing it in the spring. However, with all of the little additions (which I honestly don't think I'd want to go without), it comes to around $4,644.00 plus shipping from what I believe is Florida to up here in Rochester, NY, it ends up costing about $4,754.83. I am aware thought that I will also be needing a new muffler. So $500 about for the muffler and then another $1,000 for labor, and I'm at $6,500 before tuning. So my dilema is which would give me more "bang for my buck"? If swapping is around the same amount (although I'm assuming it's more expensive), I will most likely go that route. So really what I'm asking is if you have swapped out your engine for a k20, any k20, how much did it cost you in the end, what extra parts did you get installed (if any), and what are your stats as per the dyno? Also, what would really be helpfull is if anyone in the Rochester/Buffalo/Upstate NY area swapped, the same info as above only I'd also like to know where you swapped it. Yes, this was a huge *** post and I appologize. And yes, I'm sure I kind of ran on, but it's really late and I'm tired. I'll try to go over it again tomorrow between classes and clean it up. Thank you to whoever takes the time to read this and respond, I really appreciate any and all help.

03-Acura-1.7-EL

iTrader: (14)

I have turbo, so I would say: GO WITH TURBO!

Blahman240

why would you need a new muffler for a turbo?

Kyle23

isnt it recommended that u get at least 2 1/4" piping for a turbo application? I think that I read this somewhere?...

burke420

iTrader: (4)

turbo would be a cheaper budget, but a K20 would be a better thing to have in a 7thgen civic. but id like a turbo more than a swap.

Rennen

iTrader: (35)

swap. more reliable than a turbo.

siharathb

hmm, it will ultimately be your choice because there is no one better than the other. There will be advantages and disadvantages to both of these upgrade routes.

Turbo the d17:

I would prefer to put a turbo into mine, but I will not be biased, so I will tell you what I know (or think i know) about the two without trying to influence you.

What you need to do is ask yourself:
what is your goal for your car?
ie. how much horsepower? want a smooth ride? etc...

Turbo will be Instant Boost to the car, do you like that feeling? Of course extra power to the engine is always a good feeling but did you know that daily driving a boosted car will "probably" stress the engine more.

Another thing you want to keep in mind, if you have searched the threads there are "safety PSI" or pounds of boost you can run safely on a stock d17 engine.
You will run it at the safety psi, but if you are like me, you will get sick of the power and CRAVE for more and you are tempted to turn it up! Sure just for once, then later on you will think twice a week is not bad, then keeps on going, etc... get the point?

With turbo you want more and more, and it will probably be too late and boom ... bye bye engine... well thats me, if you're different I bow to you....

Okay, another thing about forced induction cars are their maintenance.... they are a PAIN...

High maintenance- Change oil at least every 3,000 miles +thicker oil
-colder spark plugs
-high octane gas (93+)
if you fall in love with the boost, you will like to floor it and screech your tires (decrease tire life)
the list goes on....

K20 swap:
Usually a little bit more money,
Very reliable swap because its a Normal Aspirated N/A engine. It will run smooth just like a d17engine but it has a DOHC i-Vtec. Will feel different throughout the powerband but maintains the smoothness.

You will probably get sick of the N/A VTEC engine and put on bolt-ons, and either rebuild for an ALL motor engine or go the Turbo route... because a turbo k20 will be probably the fastest combo for our cars.

So yes, less maintenance, more reliable, (if you keep up the high maintanence of a turbo) then the reliability is the same.

Personally, I would go for the boosted route because I have an Auto and I dont plan on swapping out into a manual because I want to drive an Auto.

Basically for me:
its base rsx for more than turbo for a lil bit more power than stock
or turbo kit with more hp and torque.


Final thoughts?

Basically,
Turbo d17 = more potential with less money

Swap k20= reliable, i-Vtec!, and more routes later on in your car's life like
build your motor
or turbo k20

If you dont want to spend $15,000 on your car to make it FAST
then go with turbo d17.

nick95673

iTrader: (13)

how long do you plan on having your car? because if its another 5 years i would get the swap that way in 4 years when your tired of it you can get k20 turbo

racoon_assasin

Well first off I want to thank siharathb for taking the time to write all of that. Second, Dezod's kit requires a 2.5" exhaust system to work properly I believe. I've had a few PM convo's w/ him. As for the rest, I drive a manual car myself, can't stand driving auto anymore. I'm already running high grade synthetic oil, and I was already told by Dezod to start putting in premium once I'm getting ready to put the turbo on. Now, I regretted to mention I meant the K20A1, the Integra Type-R engine. 220hp. Turbo kit will net me around 160 at the most at 8 psi. After that, I would need to start building up my engine, so in the end, I realized today that I'd end up spending over 10k just to get my hp up to and above the 220. And nick95673, yes, I plan on keeping my Civic even when I make the stupid move of getting a car loan after school for a Lan EVO. Because I less-than ***-cheek ( <3 ) my Civic. All in all, it really looks like I'm leaning toward a swap. But I'm still open to any and all info anyone would feel like sharing. And to all of you who posted, again, thank you for taking the time to read that 430 word original post I made. Oh, and one last thing, I can't deny that I love the concept of a turbo and that sweet sweet sound of a BOV, I'm all for things that give you what you want w/o, y'know, REALLY doing damage. Uhm, not sure how to end this so, thank you again.

meseetree

iTrader: (4)

BUY MY TURBO KIT!!! at least go with turbo instead of k20 only because of cost though

dezod

iTrader: (74)

Our value package may better suit your needs:

http://dezod.com/pd_dezod_motorsports_d17_stage_i.cfm

This will save you some $$ and cut down install time too.

jackburton

iTrader: (1)

Install it yourself, you will learn things you will need to drive a daily aftermarket turboed car, or atleast hopefully you will.
Start looking in the forsale section at used turbo kits.
I belive that unless you have money to burn, then turbo is the best route.
A k20 swap will probably cost aroun 6-7 grand total, where as you can get a used turbo kit, arp head studs, clutch, and some other stuff for less than that.
Ideally you could swap a k20a2, turbo it or s/c it with nitrous, but thats gonna cost ya.
It really is just about what you want, and how much you like your civic, or how much money you will put into it.

03-Acura-1.7-EL

iTrader: (14)

I'm not trying to convince one to go turbo route, but this is what I thought of.
Swapped car is definately not an easy seller, cant realy put old enfine back in and part out the ride.
Turbo kit can be taken off and re-sold as used (right now they go for $1500-2000 used). Engine can be returned back to stock and you see no traces of turbo mods...
High maintanance of turbo and 91+ gas, well its part of the package. If youre good with tools you will spend no more than few full days installing kit alone.
More to that, as one member offered to buy used kit. Here you go, no $6500+ need to get more power.....Buy a used kit, use it and resell it down the road. ....
Think twice.

Day_Tripper

If you go the turbo route definitly build up your internals first that makes it a lot safer to boost

k20txem2

iTrader: (1)

Lets just put it is simple terms.. If you like a car, your going to fix it up for the lay out of the car, not nesacaraly the performance right?

Personally i didnt think that turbo'ing my D17 would have benifited me much, maybe put out about 180 WHP or so on a sohc. So i went for the K20A, decided that "hey im going to have my car for a while, and when its time for a new one, this one will be all race!" I figure just running a k20A with 220/190 Whp *guess* NA is still better than a turbo D17, and to do a turbo system right you should rebuild the eninge, Why waist the money there? I dont know.. but base you decision on the car, not the performance. If you like the 7th gen, then make it a fast one, make it unquie, make it something different. otherwise ide just trade it in for something with a better platform to build up on. I dont know, but thats just my .02 cents.

allmotor

iTrader: (5)

turbo is safe if done right, but its alot of matienence. Both r not hella easy to do, but if u have the money then k20a2 swap. I am plannin to boost with a sohc but not d17 and u can get away without fully building it as long as u tune it properly and dont get boost crazy. Its up to u.

03-Acura-1.7-EL

iTrader: (14)

You have EX, tuned with t25 turbo (tsi extreme kit) @8 psi you are looking at about 180-190 whp. Save route. Everyone else says build internals, but if you will just street drive it, when build d17 at lets say, same kit at 14 psi (heat pump with t25), but its ~230whp. You dont need that much. This is why: the Achiles hill is the transmission. As fas as have read on this forums something like 250+ whp will not last long with stock tranny and stock axels....so realy, dont bother building just engine.
........Keep thinking....... unlike with the swap, you can always re-sell your turbo kit (could be used as downpayment) and get at least 50% back of your invested $.....How much can you get back with k20 swap?????
As I said before, thats how I think. This is just my not $0.02 (k20 swap) ..... more like $1500 (used t.kit price)

dezod

iTrader: (74)

I highly doubt that turbo flows that much at that PSI.

03-Acura-1.7-EL

iTrader: (14)

In one of the popular tunung magazines (forgot wich one) they had 167whp at 6psi...I dont remember other details...
I'm sure Google will help

dezod

iTrader: (74)

I would love to see those dyno sheets and also be there in person because that is possible, but....That T25 @ a PR of 2, which is 14.7 PSI it flows 14 lbs/min



Taken from Garrett's website:

So....it is possible, but that does not take into account drivetrain loss. Not to mention, that airflow rate is at 1 bar. Your talking about a fraction of that with 6 PSI. So I highly doubt that figures were 100% true. Dyno figures mean nothing without knowing all of the mods, motor specs, additives if any, dyno conditions.....

03-Acura-1.7-EL

iTrader: (14)

True,
I know you cant belive everything.
I just wanted to simplify the things for the guy, to help him deside.
Plus, no one before, told him, that he has to beef up axels and tanny for high whp on turbo d17....

racoon_assasin

Well I'm aware that the more power you have, the more you have to reinforce the other parts of the car. Upgrading my tranny has been another price looming over my head. You're making it sound like you're saying I'll have to build up more than then engine as a positive aspect of getting more hp out of the turbo, when it's most obviously a negative aspect. Admittedly, I will have to do similar things for the engine swap.

Also, I have no tools in my posession, therefore I will have to pay to put everything in.

As for taking off a turbo and selling it, I would never be able to then go to sell my car (should that ever happen) and lie to someone and tell them I never did any tuning. Yeah, it will make it hard to sell, but I just can't do that. Also, I really never plan to sell my car and unless something horribly unforseeable happens, I should never really need to. So whether or not I can get money back on the k20 isn't a factor.

On the last note, just like people are obviously willing to lie about whether or not they've turbo'd the car, I don't feel comfortable buying used parts because you have no clue how badly they were beat up on.

dezod

iTrader: (74)

I understand. Turbos I do not recommend ever buying used. That is not a selling point toward our kit or anyone elses. If you purchase our kit, I can arrange an install and dyno tune (hopefully at a good rate through some former affiliates in Buffalo NY)

xproductionz

iTrader: (14)

first off i would like to know where you came up with $15000....


second read this
http://www.7thgencivic.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=227132


third you think about it a k20a2 which is a rsx type s motor already give you a starting point of 200hp.... comparable to a turbo kit which puts about 160-170hp at about 7psi of boost (feel free to correct me on this)

so basically lets think about it this way

k20a2 swap = $6000** = 200hp (stock)
D17 boosted = $4000** = 160-170hp (6-7psi boost)




**please do remember that prices are rough estimates cause there are so many variances into who cheap and expensive you can get k20 parts.. also prices vary 9on the turbo kit depending which setup or packages you get.

k20txem2

iTrader: (1)

Or you could get a k24 for like 1500 bucks lol. and eventually build a toruqe monster frankinstine? just a thought.

jackburton

iTrader: (1)

If youare smart about it buying used turbos kits can be completely safe. Take gabecivic2001, he sold his turbo on here, and you can trace his posts back to when he bought it. Even when you think you are getting omsehting brand new, it could have been rebuil, you never know, take sf for example. I would still recomend looking in the FS section to see if you can find good deals, an yes be very very careful.

I think he meant that you can turbo the k20a2 and then have a fast car, that would be about 15k.
A k20a2 wil give you about 200hp to the crank, and if you are lucky you can see upward of 180whp with boost with a stock head studs.

jackburton

iTrader: (1)

If youare smart about it buying used turbos kits can be completely safe. Take gabecivic2001, he sold his turbo on here, and you can trace his posts back to when he bought it. Even when you think you are getting omsehting brand new, it could have been rebuil, you never know, take sf for example. I would still recomend looking in the FS section to see if you can find good deals, an yes be very very careful.

I think he meant that you can turbo the k20a2 and then have a fast car, that would be about 15k.
A k20a2 wil give you about 200hp to the crank, and if you are lucky you can see upward of 180whp with boost with a stock head studs.

civic01vtec

iTrader: (20)

stay stock......you will regret it in the end

03-Acura-1.7-EL

iTrader: (14)

siharathb

ok, didn't want you to misunderstand or start a flame war, but I meant you will have about 20-25whp different between rsx type s engine and the turbo d17.

What I meant about 15,000 was for
the swap itself and if he wanted to turbo it to make it even faster (just in case he gets power crazed --- i would =D) he can turbo the k20 swap and that would run about another 4Gs and then try to rebuild the motor for more power and turn up the boost.

swap = $6,000
turbo the k20 = $4000
fully build k20 the RIGHT way for turbo = about $5,000

because I know if you fully build b18's for a hatch it will run around $5,000 for high boost.