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http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=841443

Read the first post of this thread and understand why the emanage is the only proper way to tune the 7th gen for boost.

For those of you that don't understand maps - this is example of a map from a B16.

As the MAP sensor starts to transition from 20mmhg of vac to near 0 vacuum (14 psia) - the ECU RETARDS timing to prevent detonation and other bad things from happening.

Well - when you run an SAFC, VAFC, or Emanage - you are altering the MAP signal going to the ECU. As I've stated in my previous posts - this is going to alter timing as well.

If you look at the b16 map in this post - you can see what he is trying to say - near 0 vac at 4000 RPM a STOCK ECU would retard the ignition timing to around 24 degrees. When you adjust the MAP signal to around 41% to correct for larger injectors (as we have done with the RSX injectors) - the ECU will THINK you are at a lower MAP pressure and keep the ignition timing ADVANCED. If you look at the map you'll see that with the 41% setting around 4000 RPM the ignition timing is around 39 degrees!! That's 15 degrees advanced - which is why this is BAD!

Going for the short drives that I went on the other night, made me re-evaluate my situation. I pray that I did not do any damage to my engine in that short period of time (ringlands). If so - it was due to my own stupidity for not getting tuned before going for a test drive.

There is a solution to all of this however - there are 2 things which need to happen:

1 - you need to be running the emanage - as it is the ONLY solution for our cars when it comes to ignition timing!

2 - With the emanage you need to be running the greddy pressure sensor!

With the greddy pressure sensor you can more accurately tune the fuel based on boost. You cannot accurately tune fuel based on the TPS, which is what the stock settings do (of course I think you can also select to tune based on the stock MAP sensor - but it was only designed for vac! the greddy sensor is a 2 or 3 bar sensor, which was DESIGNED to see pressures greater than 14 psia).

I am starting to think it may be a good idea to get a compression tester this week and see if I have done any damage already......

 
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Another excellent piece of info from Opto!

 
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So you are saying the only way of running an electronic fuel manipulator is in the form of an e-manage so it can adjust fuel curves AND ignition curves (MSD BTM won't work on our cars)? How would this effect non-boosted applications (if at all)?

Mechanical fuel enrichers wouldn't have this issue (SF kit, Return system)...


Alex (Boosted2k2), you around for input on this?

 
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The major downfall with SF's kit is that raises in-line fuel pressure to EXTREMELY intense pressures, which our system is not designed to handle. It is but excellent on paper, but a formula for disaster in practical application.

 
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Yes - the SF kit retains the STOCK MAP sensor functionality, which means that the ECU will retard ignition levels to somewhat safe levels, which is why the SF fuel system works.

BUT - SF's kit, as stated by Dezod raises fuel pressure to god awefully high values.

If there were any other way to retard ignition timing besides the emanage, it would work too. I don't think the MSD will work for our cars, I could be wrong though. Pretty much ANY way to add fuel and modify ignition will work.

Most people are not going to be aware of this however, which is why its important to bring up if you plan on running either the Emanage or S/VAFC - there is great potential to do some real damage real fast!

In addition - this is yet another reason why you need to run with the IAT sensor IN THE CHARGE PIPE BEFORE THE THROTTLE BODY! It also helps determine ignition timing......

 
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Old thread, I know. Felt like bringing it back.

my question, doesnt Emanage let you alter ignition timing with one of the harnesses? I was under the impression this is the only way. EMS (when out) will be the sh**, but wont Emanage basically do the same thing w/timing (let you adjust), just a crappier setup (harder to tune than EMS). I have the TSI unit, and basically around 5lbs is what should be safe w/out retarding ignition, although not technically safe. ABove that I would say bye bye to the motor.

Please correct me if Im wrong, Im trying to figure out my timing issue? Emanage WILL work, correct. The last post confused me on that. Im getting tuned thursday with the TSI unit and greddy profec b will be set at 5lbs. since TSIs unit doesnt respond to boost control. I hit 13 lbs with it set at 7, and 8 with it set at 2. POS. I wish that emanage deal with the kit was around 2 weeks ago.

Thanks a lot.

 
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E-Manage does let you modify ignition timing but you have to have the ignition harness.

 
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does the AEM tuning thing for 2 grand fix ignition timing? the shop that i take my car to is pushing for the AEM over the emanage.

i just read AEM EMS stuff and it says that it will let you change ignition timing so will this work also so the emanage and the aem ems will work?

 
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AEM will let you do almost anything .... And if I was the shop, I'd be pushing a $1500 sale over a $600 one too .... the AEM is a more comprehensive system tho ...

 
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yeah there are so many benefits with the aem. However there is one factor that inhibits so many people from buying, price. If I were you I would save for the aem. Being the owner of both emanage and aem ems, the aem well, well worth the money. It doesnt let you alter signals. It lets you make your own maps. It isnt a band-aid for a sh*ty ecu. Emanage works good for most apps but for my 7thgen I didnt care for it.

 
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the shops not pushing i guess to explain a bit im gathering all that needs to be done ect to run over 15psi this summer and the only thing left to figure out was emanage or aem and i think i have decited on the aem now.

 
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what are u gonna do about the transmission? 7thgen trannys cant take much power and ur 15 psi is going to send ur tranny to the junkyard.

 
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sigh lol more people saying you cant do it on that. level 10 rebuilt tranny will be good up to 450hp. trust me im fine lol.

 
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im sorry, i didn't realize u had an auto tranny until just now. how much will it cost to rebuild ur tranny to withstand that power?

 
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Hey Dec... I hate to break it to you but that Level 10 tranny wont net you 450hp... I don't care what they say lol

 
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it would be nice, but probably wont hold up to near that.

The shop thats tuning my car said to go get an EMS. They hate the emanage. And with all harnesses for the emanage your gonna be spending a lot anyways. They werent trying to sell me any of them. I told them I buy stuff online, so they know whats up. Just like to use the EMS, they say its much much easier to tune. the tsi unit just blows ***. better than afc's though. but just the same as why you wouldnt want to tune with them for a turbo'd car.

 
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Yeah my shop told me that to but I told them to suck a nut I'm sticking with emanage lol

 
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thats what they say, people do not give the auto tranny enuff credit there was a member running 12psi on the civic auto tranny not built. and all im looking for is 300hp really just 305 .

sorry did not meent to thredjack

 
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We'll see, cuz mines auto too lol

 
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lets hope my stick is whoopoing on you guys, lol. I hate being able to boost 5psi. it sucks a**. I want at least 12, but I can deal easily with 7 or 8 for now. If anybody asks how much boost im running and wants to race, ill be like, uuhhhhhh 5 lbs. theyre gonna laugh at me hardcore. Probably not, but still sucks

 
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I don't understand the big deal about spending $1.5k for AEM's ems. To use a physiological analogy: If you're going to pay close to $6.5k to upgrade heart, musculo-skeletal, circulatory and digestive systems (i.e., turbo, internals, fuel injection, P&P and exhaust), and another $2.5k to strengthen limbs and improve coordination (i.e., drivetrain and suspension), you do not want to skimp on the brain and nervous system (i.e, EMS, A/F monitor and boost controls) which are the most critical mods both to maximize performance and to avoid catastrophic failure. When I bought my 2k2vic I figured I'd have to invest at about $10k to convert from ULEV to mustang eater. Two years ago the upgrade options were extremely limited due to lack of aftermarket support and little understanding of 7thgen's ULEV tuning. Now that we have the technology and know how people bitch about pricing.

 
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Well, another point is that fact that you don't really need the EMS unles your gonna start going to like 14 lbs and above. You can easily have a mildly tuned car with the emanage for a lesser cost, but the emanage won't help you as you climb higher into the boost ladder. The AEM system is a great cost for benifit machine IF you are running alot of boost, but you can get the same results if you arn't running a ton of boost with the emanage.

 
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^^^ Good point.

 
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Thanks.... I haven't heard that in a while lol

 
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Not everyone has $1.5K. Thats almost 3 times the cost of what you can get the emanage w/ all harnesses and support tool for.

 
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Question: Regaurding the safc. I totaly understand optos first post, but i have a question. How is timing affected when - corrections are made instead of + corrections? Is the timing retarded to some degree when you make negative corrections with the safc? Im just wanting to know for personal information.

 
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I'm getting my set up installed tomorrow (starting tomorrow), and my shop told me that eManage is great until up into to 12psi and up. But he said if I get up there, I'll have to upgrade a lot more other things before getting an EMS.

 
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but the possibilities become endless

 
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safc cannot control timing

 
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Go get em Jason