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Hey guys, I have been struggling on this swap and turbo thing for a while, I thought I might need some help to make my freakin decision, I am stuck in between.

1st Option: Completely swap K20 JDM engine (which comes w/220HP) all motor probraly run at 200 whp with civic 02 Ex body weight. Which I know for a fact has alot potential as far as setting up for turbo later on. but not anytime soon.

Civic 02 Ex
Street Tuned Expectation w/k20 swap: 200whp with alot potential
Confirmed money invested for now: $5000.00

2nd Option: Base on D17 stock motor, bolt on complete customize turbo setup which runs max 11 psi w/alcohol injection just to be on the safe side for the motor to last as long as possible, with internal modification (clutch, flywheels, dual crank pulley, cams) with no further potential and engine won't last as long as K20 swap would.

Civic 02 Ex
Street Turned Expectaition w/turbo setup: 180whp-250whp with no further potential and disadvantage of turbo lags.
Confirmed money invested: $5000.00 ($4Gs on turbo and install and another $1G for internal parts)

Street quarter mile summary: Just in case if I need to compare these 2 setup on a street quarter mile race, civic stock D17 motor w/turbo range anywhere from 180-250whp after the setup with internal, probraly will average around 250whp true power compare to 200whp with k20 swap, however I personal think when you race aganist all motor engine (in my case k20 engine) you have to lower the turbo setup from 250whp to 230whp because the fact of its turbo lags which won't kicks in after 4000 rpm and all motor has the advantages at the beginning. But whichever way civic w/turbo will still beat the k20 don't know by how much, but knowing the fact that d17 w/turbo setup has no potential left and just went as much as it can go, however K20 all motor swap is whole different situation where can setup with greddy stage 3 turbo setup and internal modification (alot) and in fact can setup up to 25psi depends on internal of course.


Above are just some of my personal summary, please correct me if I am wrong, I'm not a pro at this, but expect everyone who knows about this issue to help me out little bit about making my decision. I appreciated for all your time, but no haters please. I have nothing aganist D17w/turbo setup nor k20 engine just my personal opinion, but if you think otherwise please correct me.

 
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there is still LOTS to do with a D17 just so you know... motor has capability to be built for 25-30psi .... and it also has the weight advantage and the fact that its true from the factory so all the angles are perfect, i think we are gonna find the mounts for K's have small problems with angles etc... just like the first few H22 mounts for civics were not nearly as good as now... also, remember boosted D17s make MAD torque... and another quick tidbit, i get full spool around 3500rpm..... just so you know, and vtec doesnt kick till around 4800-5200 depending on the setup.... so turbo before vtec ends the discussion about lag... the deal is either makes for an AMAZING CAR... i appreciate both just as well... i once wanted the K swap very bad, can you tell by my name? but i chose to go the economical route, swap is still upwards of 5-6k to get done right, it can still reach 8k easy... anyways, just wanted to add a few things...

 
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but I heard if you do somehow ut 25psi how much money do you have to invest on the internal in order to boost up to 25 or even 30 psi?? for now $4000 would run me a nice turbo setup up to 9-11 psi w/injector, let me know how much I need to run up to 25-30 also how long do you think the engine will last with 25psi, becaue some people say D17 engine is not meant for racing, with turbo setup to 8psi will probraly last 6 months, how long will it last with 25psi ?

 
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It would be nice to have a side by side estimated part and labor cost for both of these setups.

I am curious as to what people are doing about emission laws? From what I understand, alot of people on this board say the motor must be the same year or newer and must still meet the emission requirements of the car the motor came from.

However, I can't see how it would be possible to pass emissions with a turbo setup. Then again I don't completely understand how a turbo works or what is being inspected for within the emission.

At this point I think if I were to choose I would pick a K20 motor. I base this decision on my lack of understanding with emissions, complete and exact price specs of the turbo, and the reliability factor of a stock motor.

Those who have a better understanding of the gray areas I have mentioned feel free to rid me of my concerns.

 
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Don't forget...with the K20 swap you get that tasty 6-speed tranny, Hondata makes a ECU upgrade...but parts cost more, especially if you are talking the Type R engine.

Personally, If I were to do the Turbo, I would build it on a different d17, build it on an engine cradle so you can go through and upgrade internals, and then just drop it in. That way if something f's up you have your original engine in the garage.

 
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Good point! There is great aftermarket support for this motor. I have evaluated the software download Hondata provides on their site. It seems pretty cool.

Your second comment is a great idea. I screwed up my motor anyay so I have nothing to lose. If someone could prove to me that I would pass emmisions I might sway this direction.

 
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just to be a safe side, I don't think either turbo nor my JDM k20 would passs emission, remember my k20 is NOT us type s engine, it's JDM directly shipped from japan w/220hp which I know for a fact it will NOT pass emission, however I know this guy will hook me up with extra $50 in his pocket which I think is worth it to pay extra 50 bucks once a year.

My main concern is the reliability of the motor in a long run, D17 stock motor either running 8psi or 30psi w/single cam won't last as long as k20 JDM all motor engine no matter how much maintaince you do, unless you drive slow as well.

Just like l00pb4k said I would have to use another D17 engine just to be on the safe side in case if it blow up, but that will cost extra $800-$1000 and is not guaranteed engine will not blown after you place another one.

If you run safe 9psi w/alcohol injection will run 189whp-195whp max. same speed as K20 JDM all motor (200whp). Despite or the turbo lags which I don't think will effect much, will run about the same speed.

 
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Just going to mention one thing-
What about trying to get everything that you can out of the d17? Keep it a true vic....
K20 is hot and all but nothin like the SF turbo...

 
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For the comment about emissions... The SF kit may not be carb exempt (at least for now)... but... Turbos are much more efficient not only in power production but in overall emissions. Stock Exhaust vs stock exhaust... the turbo will be cleaner. Keep the stock cat if you're worried about emissions.

You're also forgetting one thing... Yes the K20 is a great swap. But 5k won't really cut it, and you'll have a near stock engine. DOWNTIME is a big thing to me... I don't know anyone that can do a full engine swap (especially the K20A JDM engine) in one day's work. How bout more power at a fraction of the time. And even if the hp is the same... Your torque (as stated by future) is much much greater. I basically feel as though the turbo D17 feels as though it's just a larger engine now. Lag isn't bad at all. Boost has more potential vs cost no matter what. Yes the K20 is better. But, 5k into a turbo vic, you only miss out a day of driving, and you'll be toasting rsx-s's left and right. Dump closer to 8k, and you have a DH shortblock, the Maxed out SF kit and a clutch, low 13's high 12's here you come!

My 2cents, after feeling both i still feel that turbo is the way to go. Plus I love the BOV lol...

 
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I would do this to but get an imobilizer bypass....otherwise you need to get the
keys flashed to match the ECM unit

 
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the k20 is the way to go if u have $12,000 to blow. Type R motors are around 190 whp but are high reving motors. High reving = low torque. Only about 140ft/lbs worth. And i believe yrs down the road, u are going to see less swaps due to emission laws. With turbo at 9 psi, built top end, clutch flywheel and crank pulley, u are looking at over 250hp, at least.

Now, the k20 has a better base to start out with. Bigger displacement, stronger motor all around. The only way you to get the swap faster than a boosted D17 is if you boost the k20. Again, if you got 12 g's to blow, then do it. Also the you have LSD with the swap and that is what problem the D17 7thgens are having, traction. But even the k20 guys are having traction problems as well. Also, i am kinda wery about the k20 head. It is a high reving motor and the head takes the brunt of it.......i would have to build up my head first b4 i go and dumping a ton of money into it.

 
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ok, im gonna state this again, cause people just dont get it. Swaps DONT cost 10-12g's! You might spend an extra 2 grand ontop of motor price. I bought my motor for $3800 shipped, i finished my swap at around 5 grand. Also, i dont get the big thing with the R motor. You want to have an R motor, slap a red valve cover on a type S motor...no one will know the difference. You will want to upgrade the LSD from stock on the R motor, higher redline doesnt matter once you get Hondata, the extra power is really just comming from the header, which can be surpassed with a comptech race header. Just get the S motor, stay cheap, stay legal. You will be just as happy with it.
Im tired of people comparing the K motor to turbocharged B motors, and D motors too. Sure, you can run any motor thats turbocharged faster than a stock K motor. Slap a turbo on that K motor and those B and D motors are dusted. Plus, you are running at a much safer psi on the K producing more HP.
K motor guys arent having traction problems with their swaps. I had my swap running just fine without any traction problems. Launching hard get a little bit of spin, but by the time the second cam kicked in i had full traction. Sure i would spin for a second shifting into second, and chirp into third, but i blamed that mostly on my camber issue. Get a Quaife LSD, or a KAAZ LSD and you are set. The K head is just fine too. Hondata has been beating the crap out of it everyday up to 8600rpm and beyond without a problem. Sure, if you get the TODA kit, and rev over 9K, you will want retainers, and springs...but thats included in the kit.
Its been said many times before, the K motor is the way of the future. It is the most advanced motor produced from Honda. It produces the biggest numbers aftermarket part to aftermarket part. The B series, and D series are dead in the eyes of top aftermarket companies for the most part.
Ok, so yea, the turbo idea would be cheaper power. A really good rule of thumb to live by when fixing up a car is: "cheap parts, have expensive repairs." Yea, you are dumping a stock motor into your car, but wouldnt you rather have a stock motor than one that is producing a lot more heat than what it was inteded? All i hear about from my boosted friends are, "man i busted a gasket" "i blew up my bottom end" "my clutch is roasted" "the cops keep on pulling me over cause of my BOV" etc. Problems are going to arise with highly modded engines. Plus, you are about 4 mods away from a reliable, safe, fun, NA, 200whp with the K20A2. Thats good enough for mid to high 13's.
I dont mean to start any fights here, im just pointing out missed facts. Yea, im partial to the swap cause i had one. It was the most fun ive had in a car. And the feeling of accomplishing something that big is awsome. People see turboed hondas all the time...or at least i do. When i went out and popped my hood, and people saw it had a K motor in there, swarms of people came over to talk about it. A feeling like no other. In fact, i liked it so much, im putting that motor into another car. But it does come down to what you want to do. Its your car, you cant base your decision on what we think. Are you just out to impress us? If so, just give me money and that will make me happy. Do what you feel is right...im sure you will be happy either way.
Sorry for ranting on guys. Im a little drunk, and a little tired. Im going to bed.

 
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The way i look at it, and looked at it when i decided to swap is:

Turboing a non-turbo motor is never a reliable thing. Sure once the motor is completly built its safe, but by the time its built you'll have spent as much as you would have to do a swap. And at 7-8 psi people are making just over 200whp. To run that kinda boost theres gonna be some internal work needed to run it daily. I can get 200+whp out my my k20 with simple bolt-on's and i garantee it'll be a more reliable motor.

Basically what it boiled down to for me is start at 111whp or start at 172whp? Sure it seems expensive in the beging, but to keep up with a worked k20 you're gonna need alot of work to that turbo'd d17. And on the cost btw, i have put about $7,800 into my car.

And you can't even compare the turbo'd car to the stock k20 swap...because it's stock.

If you want cheap power get nitrous, in the import world real performance is not cheap...bottom line.

 
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Hawk,
Hows the car running? Any problems? Im sure you are having as much fun as I did with my swap. I miss it so much.

 
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Its not running very good on the Civic ECU

I have to get a bill of sale for the RSX so i can get the RSX ecu, should be happening anyday now, i'll let you know once i'm able to drive it running on the RSX ecu.

 
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man i remember running on the Civic ECU...that blows.
I know as soon as you get the RSX ECU all straight, as soon as you hit VTEC, a huge smile will be forced on your face for a long time.
Good luck, let me know how it goes

 
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Hawk and NoBottle

I am seriously considering the swap as well. I agree with the reliability points you both have made and I will most likely never do a turbo. I wouldn’t modify the K20 either. I think it would be plenty fast for me.

Don't get me wrong I still think it's cool for those who do go to the extreme of turbo. It's just that I drive roughly 100 miles a day and cannot afford to break down.

I also now understand that the JDM K20 is illegal and I would rule this swap out due to the risk and possibly a parts issue. carbonrevo I'm not putting down on your ride at all. I think its kick azz! I just don't have the resources you do to get around the legal issues.

NoBottle you mentioned that your swap is legal. When you say legal what exactly do you mean? Do you mean that you are able to insure, register, and pass through emissions without any problems?

 
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if you swap a k20a2 (RSX Type S) its perfectly legal, as long as its not stolen of course. Its a low emmisions vehicle so i think its safe to say it'll pass emissions. As long as you have bill of sale for the motor, you'd have no problems registering and insuring the car.

 
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Thank you Hawk! That was the answer I was looking for. I just don't want to make a commitment to a project like this blindly.

 
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civcious whenever you going to swap for sure, let me know I have some pros will swap for you for a real good price, I'm going to get typs motor for sure which is legal, don't even need go to that guy, let me know when you will swap for sure, mine probraly willl be the next 3 or 4 weeks.

 
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Thanks carbonrevo! Will do. I'll have to wait till my wife and I get our tax return this year. I will most likely wind up selling my 74 Camaro as well.

 
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read what i wrote again, no a swap won't cost 10-12g's. A boosted D17 is faster than a k20 swap. If you want ur k20 to be faster than a D17, then you are looking at around 10g's for a turbo kit too.

 
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you honestly and truely beleave you need 10 grand to make a k20 faster than a turbo d17? like you truely think that was a logical statement?

Cybernation Stage I RSX Turbo kit runs 12.5 @ 109mph on 1/4 mile at 10psi using slicks.

Acura RSX/EP3 $3995: 250-300whp

have fun catching that.

can you do this?

while we're at it lets look at N/A

Intake, header, exhaust, & TODA Engine Kit: 229.4 @ 8200rpm 158.8 @ 5800rpm

Engine Kit Price: $2,350

http://www.todaracing.com/products/h...ngine_kit.html

 
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a turbo d17 would prob beat a swap, now as for the 10k to turbo a k20, i can see that happening but its not necessary to beat a turbo d17, if u want a real fast k20, it would cost 10k, by the time u take the motor apart, build the bottom end, the head, and so on, plus labor unless u do it urself

 
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Bottom line, if you consider yourself as professional driver I've seen RSX type s with exhaust, full racing header and cold air intake all motor running high 13s on the track. I consider myself as average driver, will cost me 45k all motor swap with civic weight will for sure running low 14s, yall are right, turbo on D17 will probraly running high 13s (professional driver) will beat all motor for now.

However CN stage 1 turbo kit running 12.5 quarter mile nearly 1 sec, dude seriously have fun catching that, that's like 10 freaking cars behind. Turbo cost less than 4k.

Well your D17 running 11psi with high 13s on a daily driving, good luck with your motor, your lucky enough to last more than 12 months.

However I would really like to run a turbo on D17 after I swap my type s w/full racing header, exhuast and intake see how fast you guys can run.....

 
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thanx for being cool and making it look like i type that

i dont' know how u got ur motor cheap, the cheapest price i found it was for like 5 g's. I was thinking about the swap, but i couldn't swing that type of money at that time, so i opted for a turbo. So, 5,000 + 4,000 for turbo = 9 g's. 5,000 for swap + 2,350 = 7,350

Sorry, but i can't afford that.

 
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your whole post.. just delete it . cause ur moron. no thought went behind that post.. well not any reall thought.

your **** talking of the d17 is very un informed and uneducated... when u know what the car really runs at 11psi get back to us.

and when u get the **** out ur ears and relize that ur compairing Apples to Oranges come back cause all i see is a one sided arguement GOING no where.

 
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not once have i ever said that the D17 isn't a bargin to turbo comapared to swaping and turbo, obviously a k20 swap isn't for everyone. I had to take out a loan to do my swap, and trust me if i didn't blow my motor, i wouldn't have done the swap.

What i was simply saying is you can't begin to say that a k20 swapped civic will never be faster than a d17 turbo'd cause thats just stupid talk. I can have simple bolt-ons on my k20 and keep up with most of the turbo'd civics. (there are exceptions of course)

No i'm not **** talking i'm just being logical and trying to get my point across.

 
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anyway, you said my post is un informed and uneducated ? which part, orange aganist apple ?? how about stone aganist egg, check www.cybernationmotorsports.com let me know when you catch 12.5 quarter mile car with your D17 turbo then you talk, I was tying to talk **** about D17, just comparing k20 w/stage I turbo and D17 turbo, face the fact don't get mad cause your motor can't last as long as k20 would.

"when u know what the car really runs at 11psi get back to us." what the hell are you talking about? ur civic w/turbo bolt on can't even run 11psi safely without injection, all k20 would easily running 11psi without any internal mds. Bottom line, why don't you test your quarter mile come with some approved # and make judgement, like I said it's all up the driver, jeff (the one with k20 swap all motor on civic beated Evolution believe or not) So if ur a suck driver don't even talk about K20.

 
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It is a lot of driver. Yes, i did beat an EVO8 with my swap car, just by a bumper though. I know it was a bad EVO driver but i will take it. I walked a fully modded out 97 Prelude on the freeway without any trouble at all.
Yea, right out of the box, a civic swap with just CAI and exhaust wont beat a turbo D17 running high boost. But that swap with the CAI and exhaust is about $5000+Hondata (600) +race header (800) and you got yourself a mid 13 second car without even crackin open the block at all. Get good tires, LSD, and a clutch and there is a few more tenths off.
I think what carbonrevo is all about is reliability. A mid to low 13 second swap civic without opening the block, and a couple tranny mods is much safer/reliable than a turbo D17 running high boost no matter which way you look at it.
What it really comes down to is that either would be a good decision. Some people have more money to burn...let them burn it. You cant really say one is better than the other because of how much money you have spent. Its how well the car performs.