Eeeeeeh

I think we all figured that out by now

IMURMILK

I was just stating that after what greynotch wrote

Blainestang

That is generally correct, but in any similarly equipped car, it is a driver's race. They have 7-10 more hp, but weigh slightly more. The Y87 (T-Lock, and 3.47 gears) Camaro should theoretically be the fastest V6 pony car, but given a non-Y87 5-speed 200hp Camaro V6 VS. a 190-193hp 5-speed V6, neither could be considered faster than the other because they are nearly the same car. 1 cubic inch difference in displacement, the camaro is only slightly heavier, hp and tq are extremely close, and the gear ratio's are fairly close as well. The GM auto is much better than the Ford, however, like someone already said.

Blainestang

Yeah, I see what you're saying. But, even though exhaust and intake and stuff don't do that much to domestics compared to h/c and such, domestics usually respond better than imports to those simple mods just because of displacement, AND because, as every import driver points out, their engines are usually tuned closer to their max potential to begin with so there are less gains to be had with simple stuff.

IMURMILK

that sentence makes no sense

Miss_Hatchy

Current V6 Mustangs and V6 Camaros are a very close race, with similar hp & torque ratings and also similar weight figures.

I agree that is up to the driver if it's between 2 stock vehicles, or similarly modded.

greynotch

Generally, intake, exhaust and headers do very little in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't matter if it's a 302 (Ford) or 350 (LT1/LS1). You're looking at 6-11% gain at most with those mods alone. So, if you start with 330hp, you might gain 19-35hp. This won't drop your 1/4 times by more than .2 of a second or so.

However, if you add some better heads or a huge cam(s) AND you're changing those earlier mods, you are talking some major gain in power. The exhaust/intake mods really start to add up when COMBINED with other power adders....

Civics benefit from forced induction more than anything else. I personally consider cams/exhaust/intake/etc.. a waste of time on a 1.6 litre motor. However, your LS1 might gain a LOT of power with huge cam, new heads and those earlier mods. You're probably running high 13's bone stock with an LS1. You add a killer cam, some decent aftermarket heads, along with a new TB, bigger injectors, regulated fuel pressure, advanced timing, MAF sensor, big intake, new exhaust, etc... you can run low 12's naturally aspirated.

Basically, what I'm saying is that intake/exhaust do almost npthing for a little Civic OR even an LS1 alone. They're benefit is in direct proportion to the OTHER things you have done. However, I must say that an LS1 sounds BAD-*** with new headers, exhaust and a new intake (especially because you can melt that plastic stock intake if you're running big turbos or a big S/C).

00celicagts6spd

A mod is a mod and a gain is a gain period. even with that if your driver sux then the car will STIL BE SLOW.

And I don't know how you can come on a honda site and say cam swaps are a domestic mod. hell any civic running respctable times has a cam swap.
"I personally consider cams/exhaust/intake/etc.. a waste of time on a 1.6 litre motor."
tell that to the d17 EX that runs 13.9 out here N/A.

Miss_Hatchy

Yeah cam swaps are a good mod for imports, although from what I have seen it does seem like an easier, "bigger" mod to to FI these smaller displacement engines.

And albeit that this is a HONDA site, you are having a discussion with someone who has already stated that their primary interest and knowledge is centered around domestic pushrod motors. Knowing this, you would understand that swapping a single cam, intake and head change on those engines is very simplistic compared to swapping cams and gear on a DOHC 1.6, 1.8 etc.

So instead of asking HOW he can be saying such a thing, maybe it would be better to figure out WHY.

Miss_Hatchy

.......

greynotch

That is exactly my point. He;s actually proud of a 13.9? All that time/money to run a friggin 14 sec 1/4????

I am sorry, but my notch ran a 14.1 bone stock. I mean, it had the air silencer, all the OEM equip, even 2.72 stock gears.

With exhaust/cam/intake/gears she ran low 12's....

Now, forced induction can get a CIvic into the 12's, but anything else is a waste of time if you want to compete with more powerful cars

Blainestang

Thats because you didn't quote the whole sentance... you forgot the first part. Here's the whole sentance. "The Y87 (T-Lock, and 3.47 gears) Camaro should theoretically be the fastest V6 pony car, but given a non-Y87 5-speed 200hp Camaro V6 VS. a 190-193hp 5-speed V6, neither could be considered faster than the other because they are nearly the same car." Notice I didn't specifically said the "Y87" Camaro, not just the "Camaro." I am saying that the top of the line V6 Camaro should beat the top of the line stang because it comes with T-Lock and better gears, but given equal specs, they are nearly identical in all respects.

greynotch

True, but how does the Z28 compare to the '03 Cobra?

(Not that this has anything at all to do with the current topic, LOL)

00celicagts6spd

you'd have to add internals AND a turbo to get 12's lol just slappin on a turbo won't get most these cars to 12's. now turbo a 350 v8 and see what you get. lol I'm a big domestic fan myself. I only drive the celica cause it's more economical for my 1000 mile driving per week. lol
I think once I finish with the celica I'm gonna get another muscle car. I been regretting sellin my nova ever since I sold it. lol

Miss_Hatchy

Do what we did...and own BOTH! Up until several months ago, we had 2 Mustangs and 2 4 cyl commuter cars. If we didn't currently live in an apartment, and had the V8s not been money pits that LOVED modifications , we would still have 4 cars.

00celicagts6spd

yeah I sold mine cause I couldnt really afford to have both. but eh. my goal is to be the first N/A celica to hit 12's. most likely will be a 12.9 IF I can get it. lol my goal this year is to be the fastest N/A GTS period right now it's set at 13.9 by a dude in canada below sealevel and 20 degree temps. lol Im at 14.2 70 degree weather and 1200 ft. but once I finish this one I'm still gonna keep it. just gonna retire it from racing. lol thats when I'll get another muscle car and aim for 10's.

WhiteCastle

iTrader: (1)

I dont care what people say I would never buy myself a v6 stang or v6 comaro. The truth is its a slow @ss car wanting to be its big v8 brother.
I know a kid with a 94 mustang
his car is an auto lowered with eibach springs and cobra rims with wide yokohama tires.
He also has the tsunami dual exhuast.....
ohh ya should I mention that I owned him in my friends CAI stock civic auto?
this is 100 percent true..... did it over and over and over.
won by very little but still won.
note: this was from a roll not a stoplight

Blainestang

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but what other car can you buy for $13k BRAND NEW (check brandonford.com) that can run low 15's STOCK (more practice and I'll do it, and its been done many times before... even HIGH 14's), look good (opinion, but millions and millions of people over the last 40 years say it does), that is RWD, has leather, power everything, and can get 25mpg in the city (done it myself.. Tampa, FL).

Whether you like it or not, its a good deal.

IMURMILK

I love my V8, thats all

WhiteCastle

iTrader: (1)

Muscle cars are dead and the new wave of things are small engine high power output cars... Sure they cost more than mustangs, hell a civic does even. However rear wheel drive is only good when you have independent suspension. Dodge nailed it right with the SRT-4. It may be just another "neon' for now. However I think they will turn to a differnt desighn when the neon is remodeled. Thats what honda did with the SI, they didnt want people saying it was just another civic so, they gave it its own body style which is ehhh.....either you hate it or love it?
And yes I do love v8's! nothing owns a the ls series.... I grew up a chevy fan so i was essentially raised with a natural hatred for fords.
My dad owning several Z28's and vettes.
dont give me performance for the buck stuff either. The Wrx is the best deal for the money.

Blainestang

Muscle Cars are dead??? The whole point of a muscle car was to take a regular car, think Tempest, and put a powerful engine in it. Hence, the GTO. How is that any different from what the SRT-4 is today?!?!? Now, I am not saying that the Neon is a Muscle car, but the philosophy has not changed one bit.... good performance, small price. Bang for the buck is STILL KING!!! Why do you think people build up Civics anyway... they're cheap on insurance and price and though most people only do appearance and fart can, they can be fast. WRX, Lancer, and such are cheap economy cars transformed into the cars they are now, for cheap. Everything is "performance for the buck." Take something you already have and add stuff to make it faster. Modern technology makes small displacement engines a cost-effective way to build performance.... Muscle cars aren't what they once were, but the Muscle Car philosophy is still going strong.

Miss_Hatchy

Don't even bother, Blaine. There's no point...believe me, I've tried to explain it to people, and some are just set in their ways.

Imports are the trend now, and with all trends those who are heavily involved have tunnel vision at first. While I do NOT think fast, small displacement cars are a fad that will pass (I would never want that to happen since I love imports!), I think the repugnant ignorance that seems to accompany the trend WILL indeed fizzle away as the majority of the followers grow older. Never before has there been such a LARGE car oriented trend with the average age being so young.

A person that claims an absolute view for/against imports/domestics, IMO, is not really a true car euthusiast. Although I may not personally desire to own certain cars, I will always take the time to analyze and learn about them, so I can see why some people do choose to own them. I just come across too many kids nowadays that think their import/domestic is the coolest thing on earth, and don't even bother to learn about anything else lease: I am 22, so I'm still a kid too, but I sure as hell don't think or act like one...

WhiteCastle

iTrader: (1)

Muscle cars are defined by big engines and power for the buck. Not econo cars and 4 cylinder cars souped up. The Z28 is gone..... I never said performance for the buck was gone. You guys try to twist the meaning about anything to start an argument.
The fact is Muscle cars are dead! You dont have them, you own civics, rally cars! and souped up sedans!. Muscle cars are defined by the v8 itself, the low grunt of the hemi...etc.
I love them and I help rebuild those still. The fact is the big auto makers dont make the Z28, transam, anymore! Dont even get me started with the new wannabe GTO! People will always be modding cars, look at vette owners alone. So dont even get started about the spirit of building cars!
I drive fast cars
and talk about classics, I helped my dads friend with his restoration of a shelby gt350 which i might as we got carol shelby to sighn the dash.
therefore now Im done and so is this..

Miss_Hatchy

Own Civics? I COMMUTE in a Civic. We've had 3 V8s in the past 3 years, 2 of them at the same time for 1.5 years. The ONLY reason I don't have one at the current time is because I am wrapping up my last year of college, and was just tired of not having enough money to support AND modify four vehicles.





I know and love the spirit of the V8, which is why the only mods our 04 Civic will EVER have is the OEM aero kit, 15 inch OEM wheels, and OEM foglights. I love my hatchback dearly, but it won't recieve any engine mods until the current pathetic powerplant requires replacement.

I wasn't trying to start an argument, your post just reminded me of how tired I am of the import/domestic charade. I felt that you were spewing the same rhetoric, since anyone who is a diehard domestic fan would realize that although most of the V8 technology is "outdated", muscle cars will NEVER die. Many naysayers waved goodbye to the torquey V8 back in 1974. But in 1979, albeit weak, the Mustang was back again...and now in 2003 there is a 400 hp STOCK Cobra. Dead? Hardly. They may be detuned thanks to emissions and high gas prices, and not as popular as they used to be, especially with car makers. But they will never die.

I wish people would just keep an open mind.

greynotch

Muscle cars are dead? You wanna tell that to the new 04 Cobras that are rolling onto Ford lots all over the country? 360 rwhp STOCK!!!! It must be over 400hp at the flywheel. With just headers/exhaust it's 398hp... ****ing STOCK. http://www.jbaheaders.com/PDF/03cobra_pkgdyno.pdf
What about the C6 Corvette? It comes with a 6.0 liter with an extra 50hp over last year.

Miss_Hatchy

Actually, after reflecting on this thread, I'm really psyched that muscle cars ARE considered dead by the newest entries into the car hobby. That means less police harassment and ****...hell now it's 2 door Civic insurance that is on the rise

WhiteCastle

iTrader: (1)

stop saying the mustang is a muscle car. Its a pony car....sheash.
And the cobra isnt a muscle car! its too freaking expensive.

Also the vette is not a muscle car some you people need to get that through your head . If you know your cars you would know its a SPORTS CAR! one of the finest in the world I might add. Dont even bring the c6 into this convo becuase that car OWNZ everything for the price.
Twin turbo that and you have a vette that does low 7's in the qaurter mile.

Miss_Hatchy

I doubt it would do low 7s...unless you are including the massive suspension work needed to make that car hook. I know some "small tired" 10.5 class Mustangs are going in the 8s, but I don't know about 7s...that's serious ****.

Obviously we seem to have different ideas about what a muscle car is...I refer to RWD V8 cars as "muscle cars", regardless of price, class, etc.

IMURMILK

7's? haha no, definetly not, unless like ms hatch said

this thread needs to end

Miss_Hatchy

I'd say a TTed Vette with appropriate, but not EXCESSIVE (i.e. still very streetable) suspension mods is 9 second material. But I don't know much about Vettes so it is only speculation.

Milk, you're not going to ban yourself, are you?