Rep Power: 237

So I'm deciding on what suspension set up I should get for my 04 2dr ex:

1) Tokico HTS (adjustable) shocks with Neuspeed Sport springs
2) Tein Basic Coilovers
3) Tokico HP shocks with Tanabe NF210 springs

I went to a shop and the guy there said that I should get Tein Coilovers because they have "matched" springs and shocks. I know for sure I'm never going to change my ride hieght, so I donno if coilovers are worth it. I personally was leaning towards the HTS with Neuspeed combo. But that same guy said "its better to have a matched spring and shock than to have a spring with an adjustable shock and try to guess what dampening matches the spring."

Now what doesn't make sense to me is what "matched" spring and shocks mean... because even the high end coilovers have adjustable shocks...so what does it really mean?

 
Rep Power: 259

Option 3 sounds good to me. Then again coilovers are always better just because of the quality and adjustability (<--that a word??)

 
Rep Power: 237

the Tien Basics are hieght adjustable, not dampening adjustable

 
Rep Power: 304

i have the tein basics, and i have no complaints other then the fact you cant change damping.

 
Rep Power: 237

yea I was considering basics for a while and they would be perfect. they're a little bit expensive and I know I would really never adjust my hieght...so I donno if $900 is worth it.... But its definately not out of the question....

I just want to know what it means for shocks and springs to be matched, vs having a spring with adjustable shock. Whats the advantages and disadvangates of each?

 
Rep Power: 237

thanks for ur help

 
Rep Power: 380

What are your plans for the car? Daily driving only? Competition? what?

And no, "coilovers" are not by default superior by any means. In many cases piece mealing your suspension together would yield better results.


and Don't worry about the whole "matched" spring + damper thing.

 
Rep Power: 237

daily driving

heres what I got now...
stock springs
stock shocks
21mm RSX type S rear sway bar
15mm stock front sway bar

The rear sway bar made my handling a little more neutral. The car tends to oversteer at the limit now, but not a lot so I like it that way.

Heres what I plan to do:
If I choose set of springs where the rear spring constant is higher than the front (NF210, or Basics), then I'll upgrade to an 01 25.4mm front sway bar because i don't want to oversteer too much.

I don't know weather or not neuspeed springs are harder in the back or the front because they are progressive springs, not linear. If I do the neuspeed option, then I guess the only thing I can do is try it out and see how my car responds.

 
Rep Power: 259

i havnt heard a single good thing about upgrading the front sway. everybody that upgrades it..goes back to stock.

 
Rep Power: 237

but back to my original question... "matched springs and shocks" doesn't make sense to me

as a physics major, I know a linear spring with a linear velocity dependant damper can have only 3 different types of motions.

1)under damping: spring osscilates but amplitude of osscilations reduces with time. ie. car is bouncy with up and down motions after driving over a bump in the road

2)over damping: no osscilations, but spring is continually brought to equilibrium position after every induced force. ie. car is not bouncy no matter what bump u go over

3) critical damping: is a special case. only exists mathematically, unless someone can make an infinitely precise spring and damper, which is impossible

I do realize that a problem of a mass on top of one spring and one damper is not the same problem of a mass on 4 springs and 4 dampers, but one can safely simplify the problem into the former for the sake of my question.

what does "matched damping force with spring rate" actually mean? because other than affecting the dynamics of the car as a whole (motion of the car as it turns, stops, accelerates with respect to the wheels), I can't see how one spring constant has a specific damping force.

now I am only writing this from my experiance as a physicist, not as a suspension expert, and I am assuming a lot of things when I simplify the problem like that...so If anyone can help me by telling me what that dude in the shop meant, it would clear up some confusion...thanks

 
Rep Power: 320

if your just going to daily driving and looks, just go with the cheapest combo.

if your going to take your car more to the limits then i would suggest the tokico adjustables with eibach springs. Neuspeeds are horriable. I use to have them and they would sag.

I would suggest koni yellows with gc coilovers with custom springs.

If you are going to take your car to the limits then i suggest you go with linear springs. Linear springs are better for taking your car to the limits because its easier to predict how your car will react.

Progressive springs are better for dd because you can have a comfortable ride and still do some cornering, but not the best for putting your car to the limits.

 
Rep Power: 237

I hear a lot of bad things about neuspeed unfortunately

I guess I could do Tein Stech with Tokico HTS adjustable shocks... They are guarenteed to not sag more than 5mm or something, and also have a warrentee

 
Rep Power: 242

I have S-Techs and I love them.....I have them on stock shocks, with a 19mm RSX-S rear sway and a 15.9mm stock front sway....and my car handles perfect for street use. I used to have the 25.4mm front sway and I hated it...i went back to the 15.9mm in about a month....back to the S-Techs....I have zero complaints about them...I would def recommend them if you want a decent drop at a good price.......


PS dswami1 ...I have a 25.4mm front sway for sale....let me know if you want it

 
Rep Power: 0

Tein S Techs and Tokico HP blues are what I use. The drop is pretty nice. I'd have to say that ride quality was screwed up from the get go by Honda. The trunk and back of the car is so light it just bounces around, even more with stiffer set up. I wouldn't worry about matching spring rates, I doubt anyone with an aftermarket set up for daily driving use has used the physics you are thinking about when getting there stuff. It would be nice though to have a near perfect combo.. haha. As a science major myself I can see where you're coming from haha.

 
Rep Power: 0

Ive been wondering the same thing. I was thinking of just going with the tokico Hp suspension set.I assumed they would match the springs which come with the set with the hp struts, although I assume im paying for them to match said springs and struts. I might be better off matching them myself and save some money. in which case im in the same boat as you and have no idea where to start.

 
Rep Power: 380

"Matched" springs and dampers (damper is the better name as they don't absorb shock, but rather dampen the oscillations of the springs) is a bit of a misnomer. But they are talking about critical damping, of which as you state only exists mathematically. So you can understand why I said before to not worry about it. It tends to get tossed around by people trying to justify the purchases they made and by marketing depts.

Basically for an automotive suspension you want the suspension to make 1 full oscillation for any one bump. thats Compress, extend, settle. Any less then that and you are over damping any more and you are under damping.

Oh and it gets worse... I'm sure that you are use to dealing with linear dampers in you physics studies, but Modern automotive dampers are no longer linear. Linear being dampers that keep the same resistance force regardless of the dampers shaft speed.

Most if not all automotive dampers at this point are Digressive dampers. Meaning the damping force Decreases as shaft speeds increase. They do this because different shaft speeds influence different aspects of the cars handling performance as well as how it reacts to bumps and ruts on the road.

Lower shaft speeds influencing how the car transfers weight when you initiate turns (tweaking the cars handling balance). Higher shaft speeds primarily influencing with how the cars deals with impacts. (ride quality)

Fun eh?

here's a link you may be interested in

The physics of racing

 
Rep Power: 237

haha wow, that link looks like another one of my text books... well, im def going to look over it...

yea i knew that they probably didn't use linear velocity dependant dampers, becuase the ride would probably really suck if they did. But the mathematical complexity increases exponentially when things get nonlinear. So we only covered linear damped osscilations in my classes haha, thats all i knew...But thanks a lot for clearifying this, it really helped.

 
Rep Power: 0

so what your saying it doens't make that much difference when matching springs and struts?

 
Rep Power: 380

To some degree it does, however you'd really have to go out of your way to find a streetable spring that doesn't work well with any of the available after market performance dampers. Given that even race teams are happy to get 60-65% critical dampening with their chosen spring + damper setup. You've got a bit of leeway.


For example, off the shelf Koni dampers are known to handle springs rates from stock upwards of 1000 LB/inch. However it is also excepted that spring rates over 550 are getting in to the range where it would be a good idea to have those dampers re-valved. So you can see that any given damper will have a range of spring rates that it will work perfectly fine with.

 
Rep Power: 0

well that makes it a lot easier thankyou