Do new springs really matter?
08-17-2004
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Do new springs really matter? Perhaps this would be better fielded to the auto-x forum, but here goes (mods move if necessary)
I was wondering if there was any tangable benefit of having lowering springs on the car in terms of skidpad performance (this comparison assumes good rolling stock mind you). Most people lower for looks, but those are second in my mind to cornering performance/behavior.
If you have a civic with performance swaybars front and rear (progress is what I'm looking to get) with a good set of dampers (I've had my eye on KYB offerings), will you really notice a difference in cornering ability if you throw a set of springs on there?
Any opinions or ideas are more than welcome, as are links to skidpad numbers of civics with suspension goodies installed.
Thanks!
John
I was wondering if there was any tangable benefit of having lowering springs on the car in terms of skidpad performance (this comparison assumes good rolling stock mind you). Most people lower for looks, but those are second in my mind to cornering performance/behavior.
If you have a civic with performance swaybars front and rear (progress is what I'm looking to get) with a good set of dampers (I've had my eye on KYB offerings), will you really notice a difference in cornering ability if you throw a set of springs on there?
Any opinions or ideas are more than welcome, as are links to skidpad numbers of civics with suspension goodies installed.
Thanks!
John
08-17-2004
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Rep Power: 0 I've got the progress sway bar kit and some tokico's with stock springs, but i still feel the car lean under heavy turning. I've never calculated my skidpad numbers, but i've driven around enough cirlces to be able to compare how the suspension compresses with/with out the mods. I could definitely see how stiffer springs would help the skidpad numbers as there would be even less lean, with a more even weight distribution over the 4 tires. I'd think that the sway bars would have a greater effect than springs, but that's just a guess.
08-17-2004
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Each part does a specific job, some times two....
springs in a High performance application have three jobs. they keep the tires loaded against the ground, over bumps and ruts (A tire in the air can make no traction) And they adjust the roll couple, influencing the handling balance of the car. of these two jobs, the first (Keeping the tires on the ground) is the most important.
The third job they do is determin the ride height of the car, which pertains to your question....
Now, you have to have a basic understanding of how tires make traction. Simply put, the more weight on a tire the more traction it makes.... But there is a catch, as weight increases on a tire, the amount of extra traction it makes Decreases.... Kinda like deminishing returns.
also, you need to understand a bit of Vehicle dynamics.... more importantly the concept of weight transfer.... The basic principle that when you corner, the weight of the car gets transfered from nutural (straight line balance) to the side of the car that is on the out side of the turn. so that the out side tires will have more weight on them then the inside tires..... This relates back to how tires make traction, so the out side tires are making more traction then the inside tires, BUT.... because the amound of extra traction a tire makes deminishes as weight is applied, this means that the inside tires have lost more traciton then the tires on the outside have made due to being under load equaling a loss of traction overall.... SO. it can be determinied that weight transfer is bad for handling. How do you get rid of weight transfer.... You cant. But you can reduce it by 1. Physically removing weight from the car 2. Widening the track of the car (yes wider really is better) and 3. Lowering the car.
So, you were right, Lowering the car does effect handling simply by reducing the amount of weight transfered = less traction lost durring a corner.
Now just to clear one of the biggest misconseptions regarding handling....Body roll.... BODY ROLL DOES NOT CAUSE WEIGHT TRANSFER, IT IS AN EFFECT OF WEIGHT TRANSFER!! so to simply reduce body roll doesnt mean that the car will handle any better. Body roll really only has 2 effects on handling. 1. it annoys the driver and 2. it causes a bit of camber loss (which can be compensated by running more static negitive camber).
So what does this all mean to you and your question....
1. Picking the right spring rate is extreamly important, you want one that is stiff enough to help reduce a bit of body roll (to minimize camber change), they have to be soft enough to not make the tire come off the ground when hitting bumps, and finally they must have the proper balance (front to rear) to give you the handling balance you want.
2. Loweing the car will help some, however there is VERY Much a thing as being too low, especially in cars with limited suspension travel.
3. Skid pad #s dont mean a whol hell of a lot..... WHy??? because a car has to be tuned for its intended application.... you must remember that the 3 cornering states (oversteer, understeer and nutural steer) a car can be in happen at different times depending on how you have the car set up.. a car preped for autocross, for example, will tipically oversteer at MUCH lower speeds then a car preped for a Road course. simply because the autocross car must make turns that are tipically much tigher and slower then whats on a road course.
This is way too complex...
More to try to answer your questions on parts.... For best handling, you will probably want to increase the size of your rear anti-roll bar but stick with stock or smaller on the front, you will more then likely want to run a harder spring rates, but not too hard if this is a street car. you'll want to lower the car a bit, aslo not too much due to suspension travel issues. you'll want a good set of Dampers (KYB would do OK, but go with Konis if you want the best handling you can get with out braking the bank). alignments are very important too, so you'll have to do a bit of experimenting here for the best set up. But most importantly, go do some performance driving in a controled enviornment, either a HPDE or autocross... some were you can puch the car to its limits with out needlessly risking others lives. Because the #1 part that makes the car handle badly is the driver.....
springs in a High performance application have three jobs. they keep the tires loaded against the ground, over bumps and ruts (A tire in the air can make no traction) And they adjust the roll couple, influencing the handling balance of the car. of these two jobs, the first (Keeping the tires on the ground) is the most important.
The third job they do is determin the ride height of the car, which pertains to your question....
Now, you have to have a basic understanding of how tires make traction. Simply put, the more weight on a tire the more traction it makes.... But there is a catch, as weight increases on a tire, the amount of extra traction it makes Decreases.... Kinda like deminishing returns.
also, you need to understand a bit of Vehicle dynamics.... more importantly the concept of weight transfer.... The basic principle that when you corner, the weight of the car gets transfered from nutural (straight line balance) to the side of the car that is on the out side of the turn. so that the out side tires will have more weight on them then the inside tires..... This relates back to how tires make traction, so the out side tires are making more traction then the inside tires, BUT.... because the amound of extra traction a tire makes deminishes as weight is applied, this means that the inside tires have lost more traciton then the tires on the outside have made due to being under load equaling a loss of traction overall.... SO. it can be determinied that weight transfer is bad for handling. How do you get rid of weight transfer.... You cant. But you can reduce it by 1. Physically removing weight from the car 2. Widening the track of the car (yes wider really is better) and 3. Lowering the car.
So, you were right, Lowering the car does effect handling simply by reducing the amount of weight transfered = less traction lost durring a corner.
Now just to clear one of the biggest misconseptions regarding handling....Body roll.... BODY ROLL DOES NOT CAUSE WEIGHT TRANSFER, IT IS AN EFFECT OF WEIGHT TRANSFER!! so to simply reduce body roll doesnt mean that the car will handle any better. Body roll really only has 2 effects on handling. 1. it annoys the driver and 2. it causes a bit of camber loss (which can be compensated by running more static negitive camber).
So what does this all mean to you and your question....
1. Picking the right spring rate is extreamly important, you want one that is stiff enough to help reduce a bit of body roll (to minimize camber change), they have to be soft enough to not make the tire come off the ground when hitting bumps, and finally they must have the proper balance (front to rear) to give you the handling balance you want.
2. Loweing the car will help some, however there is VERY Much a thing as being too low, especially in cars with limited suspension travel.
3. Skid pad #s dont mean a whol hell of a lot..... WHy??? because a car has to be tuned for its intended application.... you must remember that the 3 cornering states (oversteer, understeer and nutural steer) a car can be in happen at different times depending on how you have the car set up.. a car preped for autocross, for example, will tipically oversteer at MUCH lower speeds then a car preped for a Road course. simply because the autocross car must make turns that are tipically much tigher and slower then whats on a road course.
This is way too complex...
More to try to answer your questions on parts.... For best handling, you will probably want to increase the size of your rear anti-roll bar but stick with stock or smaller on the front, you will more then likely want to run a harder spring rates, but not too hard if this is a street car. you'll want to lower the car a bit, aslo not too much due to suspension travel issues. you'll want a good set of Dampers (KYB would do OK, but go with Konis if you want the best handling you can get with out braking the bank). alignments are very important too, so you'll have to do a bit of experimenting here for the best set up. But most importantly, go do some performance driving in a controled enviornment, either a HPDE or autocross... some were you can puch the car to its limits with out needlessly risking others lives. Because the #1 part that makes the car handle badly is the driver.....
08-17-2004
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Thank you very much for your indepth look at how suspension mods effect our cars... I had forgotten all about weight transfer being such an issue of traction. Also having a lowered car will allow the tires (provided you have good ones) to make the most of the contact patch and sidewall stiffness. I suppose having a lower profile tire here would be somewhat advantageous...
As you've mentioned, it's all about the situation you want the car to perform in, with that, here's a brief synopsis of my situation, I'm trying to get the car set up for Deal's Gap/Tail of the Dragon area in the Smokies outside of Knoxville, TN. It's a series of 318 curves in an 11 mile stretch of mountainous road. With the exception of the 2 or so dozen harpins, the rest of the corners can be gotten through in my civic (completely OEM including tires) at somewhere between 20 and 35 MPH. Most of the turns are linked, which requires quite a lot of care with the slop in the OEM suspension to not fly out of subsequent corners. I'd also like it to be nicely streetable as it's also my only car.
I'd go the Koni route for shocks, but I've not got access to a machine shop to install them nor the money to have one of the local shops do the install. (if anyone lives in the Hampton, VA area and can install Koni carts in the front strut housing lemme know).
One more question for ya Z, what wheel/tire size would you reccomend all around? I'm on OEM alloy's (2004 EX Sedan) with 195/60r15's
Thank you very much for your indepth look at how suspension mods effect our cars... I had forgotten all about weight transfer being such an issue of traction. Also having a lowered car will allow the tires (provided you have good ones) to make the most of the contact patch and sidewall stiffness. I suppose having a lower profile tire here would be somewhat advantageous...
As you've mentioned, it's all about the situation you want the car to perform in, with that, here's a brief synopsis of my situation, I'm trying to get the car set up for Deal's Gap/Tail of the Dragon area in the Smokies outside of Knoxville, TN. It's a series of 318 curves in an 11 mile stretch of mountainous road. With the exception of the 2 or so dozen harpins, the rest of the corners can be gotten through in my civic (completely OEM including tires) at somewhere between 20 and 35 MPH. Most of the turns are linked, which requires quite a lot of care with the slop in the OEM suspension to not fly out of subsequent corners. I'd also like it to be nicely streetable as it's also my only car.
I'd go the Koni route for shocks, but I've not got access to a machine shop to install them nor the money to have one of the local shops do the install. (if anyone lives in the Hampton, VA area and can install Koni carts in the front strut housing lemme know).
One more question for ya Z, what wheel/tire size would you reccomend all around? I'm on OEM alloy's (2004 EX Sedan) with 195/60r15's
08-17-2004
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for tires. the whole "Lower profile tires give better turn responce" thing only really applies to street tires with soft sidewalls... the more towards race tires you go the less tire flex becomes an issue. once you have a tire with a suficently stiff side wall that rule of thumb turns in to "run the widest and smallest wheel you can fit over your rotors, and slap the widest tire you can fit on it". For us a good 15X7 is the way to go (15X7.5 if you can get the right offset).
As far as tire, that depends on what your budget is, what your willing to put up with and how often you want to have to buy tires... I allways recomend either the Falken AZENIS Sports or the Kumho MX. Both will fit your OEM wheels but they prefer to be mounted on wide wheels (Both are 205/50-15, though their actual width is much wider, I measured out the Azenis to be 218...) The down side of these tires though is that they are not exactly the friendlyest of street tires... they tend to be noisy, they may want to track a bit on freeways (things with Radial grooves) and they dont really last all that long.... Easily in the sub 20,000 miles... (8-15 with hard driving) and nither is all that great in the rain (They grip great when its slick out but puddles cause Hydroplaning...) If you want something with slightly less dry grip but is a much more comfortable street tire, the 0S2 or 0S3 would be good choices, as would the ES100 among other tires... as far as tire size... well Wider is good (Note again that the Falken Azenis is rated at 205 but measures out to 218...) If you can find a 225 or a 215 that is close to the overall diamiter of stock (with in 1% is ok) then you'll get decent traction with out comprimising your spedomiter/odomiter readings... if you go shorter with a 205/50-50 (MX and Azenis) which are 6% shorter then stock your going to have a couple of things happen. 1, you will rack up Miles 6% faster. 2. you Spedomiter will read 6% faster then your actual MPH and 3. You'll be 6% higher in RPMs for any given MPH (Closer to the powerband...) 4. The car will sit about a half inch closer to the ground.. (Lower Center of gravity = less weight transfer) and the Best.. 5. You will get a 6% boost in acceleration, at the cost of losing 6% of your top speed.
For springs and the rest... from your discription of the road, you'r probably going to set the car up more like an Autocross car Vs a Road Course car... But, I'd say the #1 thing you need to get up to spec would be your Brakes... (Trust me, I've faded my pads and boiled the brake fluid going down a moutain pass once before, its not fun). after that, Tires and shocks (Konis are the rout to go). then springs, Preferably an adjustible spring (Ground controls would do well) for spring rates.. keep it below the 500 LB/in mark if you dont want to rattle your fillings out... Remember the rougher the road the softer the springs... so use your best judgement here. For anti-roll bars, what year civic do you have? if its an 03+ then keep the stock front bar (its 15.9mm) and You'll want to increase the size of the rear bar (the RSX 19mm bar would be a good place to start) Then get the proper alignemnt (If you are waitng to get the above, then get your self a camber kit and get a good alignment with the stock setting). Try to Run a minimum of -1.5 deg camber in the front around half as much on the rear. I run -2.5 on the front. Try to get as much Positive Caster as you can, and then run 0 Toe Front and rear...
Allot of this is going to be trial and error... you'r just going to have to try a couple of things to find what you like best and what works the best (Some times what you like and what works the best are two differeng things..)
Just a few pointers for saftys sake..
#1, it is far better to brake too soon then too late...
#2, Late Apex EVERY THING.
#3, If the rear end starts rotating on you, DO NOT HIT THE BRAKES!!! Insead do something usefull like Add in more throttle.
and #4.... Dont drive above your abilites.... I know we all think that we are great drivers, but it is better to ease in to going fasterthen it is to fly in to a corner and find ourselves in a gaurd rail.... Good quote on the subject "He Ran out of Talent at the moment of Inapropreate Rotation..."
Good luck, Have fun, Keep the shiny side up.... And go try some Autocross !!!!
for tires. the whole "Lower profile tires give better turn responce" thing only really applies to street tires with soft sidewalls... the more towards race tires you go the less tire flex becomes an issue. once you have a tire with a suficently stiff side wall that rule of thumb turns in to "run the widest and smallest wheel you can fit over your rotors, and slap the widest tire you can fit on it". For us a good 15X7 is the way to go (15X7.5 if you can get the right offset).
As far as tire, that depends on what your budget is, what your willing to put up with and how often you want to have to buy tires... I allways recomend either the Falken AZENIS Sports or the Kumho MX. Both will fit your OEM wheels but they prefer to be mounted on wide wheels (Both are 205/50-15, though their actual width is much wider, I measured out the Azenis to be 218...) The down side of these tires though is that they are not exactly the friendlyest of street tires... they tend to be noisy, they may want to track a bit on freeways (things with Radial grooves) and they dont really last all that long.... Easily in the sub 20,000 miles... (8-15 with hard driving) and nither is all that great in the rain (They grip great when its slick out but puddles cause Hydroplaning...) If you want something with slightly less dry grip but is a much more comfortable street tire, the 0S2 or 0S3 would be good choices, as would the ES100 among other tires... as far as tire size... well Wider is good (Note again that the Falken Azenis is rated at 205 but measures out to 218...) If you can find a 225 or a 215 that is close to the overall diamiter of stock (with in 1% is ok) then you'll get decent traction with out comprimising your spedomiter/odomiter readings... if you go shorter with a 205/50-50 (MX and Azenis) which are 6% shorter then stock your going to have a couple of things happen. 1, you will rack up Miles 6% faster. 2. you Spedomiter will read 6% faster then your actual MPH and 3. You'll be 6% higher in RPMs for any given MPH (Closer to the powerband...) 4. The car will sit about a half inch closer to the ground.. (Lower Center of gravity = less weight transfer) and the Best.. 5. You will get a 6% boost in acceleration, at the cost of losing 6% of your top speed.
For springs and the rest... from your discription of the road, you'r probably going to set the car up more like an Autocross car Vs a Road Course car... But, I'd say the #1 thing you need to get up to spec would be your Brakes... (Trust me, I've faded my pads and boiled the brake fluid going down a moutain pass once before, its not fun). after that, Tires and shocks (Konis are the rout to go). then springs, Preferably an adjustible spring (Ground controls would do well) for spring rates.. keep it below the 500 LB/in mark if you dont want to rattle your fillings out... Remember the rougher the road the softer the springs... so use your best judgement here. For anti-roll bars, what year civic do you have? if its an 03+ then keep the stock front bar (its 15.9mm) and You'll want to increase the size of the rear bar (the RSX 19mm bar would be a good place to start) Then get the proper alignemnt (If you are waitng to get the above, then get your self a camber kit and get a good alignment with the stock setting). Try to Run a minimum of -1.5 deg camber in the front around half as much on the rear. I run -2.5 on the front. Try to get as much Positive Caster as you can, and then run 0 Toe Front and rear...
Allot of this is going to be trial and error... you'r just going to have to try a couple of things to find what you like best and what works the best (Some times what you like and what works the best are two differeng things..)Just a few pointers for saftys sake..
#1, it is far better to brake too soon then too late...
#2, Late Apex EVERY THING.
#3, If the rear end starts rotating on you, DO NOT HIT THE BRAKES!!! Insead do something usefull like Add in more throttle.
and #4.... Dont drive above your abilites.... I know we all think that we are great drivers, but it is better to ease in to going fasterthen it is to fly in to a corner and find ourselves in a gaurd rail.... Good quote on the subject "He Ran out of Talent at the moment of Inapropreate Rotation..."
Good luck, Have fun, Keep the shiny side up.... And go try some Autocross !!!!
08-25-2004
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Very awosome reply, for some reason I didn't get the e-mail right after it was posted, so sorry for the delay.
First off, I've got a 2004 EX sedan. I've got some pictures of me going through the dragon that I can post here if you're interested, it will give you something of an idea of the roads that I'm most interested in running on. Note that I would also like the car to be decent (read:fun) in higher speed situations such as highway ramps or skyline/skyway/ridge type roads. I would, however, like to keep the car pretty much top-of-game for tight-in turns where second gear is the place to be with occational runs up to 3rd on the more open areas.
For tire choices, I like the sound of the Falkens with the exception of hydroplaning and tread life. I'm looking at some of the higher end Bridgestone RE series specificly the RE750's, possibly even the G009's if I think snow traction would be enough of an issue to warrant skiping the 750's (we have snow maybe 3 days a year and they attack it with their clearing equipment like the orkin man on termites). I've run a few different brands of tires over the years and have been the most impressed all around with Bridgestones. I tend to put quite a few miles on the car and getting about 20k out of a set sounds about right. However, if I ended up with an extra set of tires for zooming madly about, I'd likely go with the Falkens.
I'm with you on the brakes. I've not faded them yet, but I can see it happening quite easily. I've not done much research on brake stuff for our cars, and if you have any suggestions and a couple of minutes I'd not mind hearing them. Otherwise I'll search on it for a few days.
With rim sizes, I'm going to be sticking with the OEM's for a while (6.5x15) and just get a tire wtih a good sidewall on it. Eventually, I'd like to go with some 15 inch rota's as everyone (including yourself) in the auto-x forum seems to love them and I can afford them on my puny sallary (E-3 in the USAF).
As far as other suspension mods go, I'd like to go with progress front and rear. As the car sits right now on it's stock underpinnings, body roll is a MASSIVE issue. The car looks like it's going to come unglued when seen from behind in an at-the-limit corner. How do the RSX rear bars compare to the progress rear bar? For shocks I'd love to go Koni, but the price point just keeps killing me, I may just buckle down and do it right, however, as if you ever break a koni you get a new one on-the-house. For springs originally I was thinking Eibach Pro or Sport as they are remarkably cheaper than adjustable coilovers and should provide a noticible differance in handling.
I suppose my only remaning question for you is this: How much should one drop a Civic Sedan to allow for better performance without sacrificing streetablility? Does G-Control make coilovers for sedans?
Thanks again for all your explainations. I think you should compile what you've written here and any other choice set-up tidbits you can type out and make a "Civic Setup" FAQ or a series of them for people who just want to know what the heck is going on from somebody that knows.
I'm drooling over the prospect of trying autocross, that means I can go *****-to-the-wall without fear of wrecking my ride and see what it can REALLY do. Nearest auto-x events that I've found are up in Richmond, so it's just over an hour away... Might have to go up there on one of my weekends off.
Thanks again,
John
Very awosome reply, for some reason I didn't get the e-mail right after it was posted, so sorry for the delay.
First off, I've got a 2004 EX sedan. I've got some pictures of me going through the dragon that I can post here if you're interested, it will give you something of an idea of the roads that I'm most interested in running on. Note that I would also like the car to be decent (read:fun) in higher speed situations such as highway ramps or skyline/skyway/ridge type roads. I would, however, like to keep the car pretty much top-of-game for tight-in turns where second gear is the place to be with occational runs up to 3rd on the more open areas.
For tire choices, I like the sound of the Falkens with the exception of hydroplaning and tread life. I'm looking at some of the higher end Bridgestone RE series specificly the RE750's, possibly even the G009's if I think snow traction would be enough of an issue to warrant skiping the 750's (we have snow maybe 3 days a year and they attack it with their clearing equipment like the orkin man on termites). I've run a few different brands of tires over the years and have been the most impressed all around with Bridgestones. I tend to put quite a few miles on the car and getting about 20k out of a set sounds about right. However, if I ended up with an extra set of tires for zooming madly about, I'd likely go with the Falkens.
I'm with you on the brakes. I've not faded them yet, but I can see it happening quite easily. I've not done much research on brake stuff for our cars, and if you have any suggestions and a couple of minutes I'd not mind hearing them. Otherwise I'll search on it for a few days.
With rim sizes, I'm going to be sticking with the OEM's for a while (6.5x15) and just get a tire wtih a good sidewall on it. Eventually, I'd like to go with some 15 inch rota's as everyone (including yourself) in the auto-x forum seems to love them and I can afford them on my puny sallary (E-3 in the USAF).
As far as other suspension mods go, I'd like to go with progress front and rear. As the car sits right now on it's stock underpinnings, body roll is a MASSIVE issue. The car looks like it's going to come unglued when seen from behind in an at-the-limit corner. How do the RSX rear bars compare to the progress rear bar? For shocks I'd love to go Koni, but the price point just keeps killing me, I may just buckle down and do it right, however, as if you ever break a koni you get a new one on-the-house. For springs originally I was thinking Eibach Pro or Sport as they are remarkably cheaper than adjustable coilovers and should provide a noticible differance in handling.
I suppose my only remaning question for you is this: How much should one drop a Civic Sedan to allow for better performance without sacrificing streetablility? Does G-Control make coilovers for sedans?
Thanks again for all your explainations. I think you should compile what you've written here and any other choice set-up tidbits you can type out and make a "Civic Setup" FAQ or a series of them for people who just want to know what the heck is going on from somebody that knows.
I'm drooling over the prospect of trying autocross, that means I can go *****-to-the-wall without fear of wrecking my ride and see what it can REALLY do. Nearest auto-x events that I've found are up in Richmond, so it's just over an hour away... Might have to go up there on one of my weekends off.
Thanks again,
John
08-25-2004
#10
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Considering your on a budget, you should probably concentrate on whats going to make the biggest difference first and work down...
So heres my recomendation.
If you really are on that much of a budget, go pick your self up a camber kit and start fiddling with your alignmemt.... For camber i'd suggest starting with about -1 to -1.5 Deg camber on the front (this will let the noes bite in better for less understeer), about half that on the rear. for toe, you may want to try a few settings.... If you toe in the front, the car will understeer more and be more stable in straight lines. If you toe out the front the car will turn in better but it will also want to wander when going straight... 0 toe is a comprimise of the two. If you toe in the rear, you will reduce oversteer, if you toe out the rear you will increase oversteer... once again 0 toe is a comprimise. Regarding Tire wear... Toe settings (Out or in) will eat tires MUCH faster then camber settings... I ran a set of tires for 60,000+ miles with -2.3 Deg camber, and 0 toe.... so you may want to run with 0 toe front and rear with a bit more negitive camber.
IF you have some cash, Tires will improve handling more then any other single part... Pick out the ones that fit your needs of Traction and wear, then build the rest of the suspension to work with those tires. also, Different tires Like different alignment settings, so mess with those again to find the best setting for what ever tire you decide to run.
for the rest of the suspension, I'd say get Shocks first, as a car with stock springs and Performance shocks will handle better then a car with Sport springs and OEM shocks. Konis are the way to go here, but if you can wait untill they come out (If ever) Tokico Illuminas would be a good comprimise (not as high performance as Koni, but with a softer ride and they are still adjustible). I've been advised to avoid KYB by the people I autocross with... But if you must, just about any thing is better then Stock. (Getting an adjustible shock is Key to getting the best handling).
(I have to work now, so I'll finish this later...)
Considering your on a budget, you should probably concentrate on whats going to make the biggest difference first and work down...
So heres my recomendation.
If you really are on that much of a budget, go pick your self up a camber kit and start fiddling with your alignmemt.... For camber i'd suggest starting with about -1 to -1.5 Deg camber on the front (this will let the noes bite in better for less understeer), about half that on the rear. for toe, you may want to try a few settings.... If you toe in the front, the car will understeer more and be more stable in straight lines. If you toe out the front the car will turn in better but it will also want to wander when going straight... 0 toe is a comprimise of the two. If you toe in the rear, you will reduce oversteer, if you toe out the rear you will increase oversteer... once again 0 toe is a comprimise. Regarding Tire wear... Toe settings (Out or in) will eat tires MUCH faster then camber settings... I ran a set of tires for 60,000+ miles with -2.3 Deg camber, and 0 toe.... so you may want to run with 0 toe front and rear with a bit more negitive camber.
IF you have some cash, Tires will improve handling more then any other single part... Pick out the ones that fit your needs of Traction and wear, then build the rest of the suspension to work with those tires. also, Different tires Like different alignment settings, so mess with those again to find the best setting for what ever tire you decide to run.
for the rest of the suspension, I'd say get Shocks first, as a car with stock springs and Performance shocks will handle better then a car with Sport springs and OEM shocks. Konis are the way to go here, but if you can wait untill they come out (If ever) Tokico Illuminas would be a good comprimise (not as high performance as Koni, but with a softer ride and they are still adjustible). I've been advised to avoid KYB by the people I autocross with... But if you must, just about any thing is better then Stock. (Getting an adjustible shock is Key to getting the best handling).
(I have to work now, so I'll finish this later...)
08-25-2004
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Rep Power: 356 Ok, I can start this up again...
Springs... there is a bit of personal preference when it comes to ride height and ride quality.. for performance, Go as low as you can with out bottoming out the shocks or comprimising the suspension geometry. for us, thats probably in the area of 2"?? more or less... just dont slam the thing. This is where adjustible ride height comes in handy, as you can try a few settings and see what wroks best for you. For a duel purpous car, progressive rate springs are nice, but they tend to feel wierd when you run them hard (its the change in spring rates that feels funky). I have the Eibach pro kit... They are pretty good, not to hard not too soft (thanks to them being progressive springs). Ride height is decent for street use.
Anti-roll bars..... the Progress bars are good, BUT I wouldnt get the front one. a 27mm front bar is WAY too big for any real Highe performance handling.... They are great for the Average driver, but if you plan on learing to drive you wont want it.. (I droped my 25.4mm front bar to a 15.9mm front bar, and upped my 12mm rear bar to a Hollow 25.4mm adjustible bar.) If you do want to get a Larger front bar, Start with one of the 22mm front OEM bars off the sedans (I think the 02-03 sedans had them).
Springs... there is a bit of personal preference when it comes to ride height and ride quality.. for performance, Go as low as you can with out bottoming out the shocks or comprimising the suspension geometry. for us, thats probably in the area of 2"?? more or less... just dont slam the thing. This is where adjustible ride height comes in handy, as you can try a few settings and see what wroks best for you. For a duel purpous car, progressive rate springs are nice, but they tend to feel wierd when you run them hard (its the change in spring rates that feels funky). I have the Eibach pro kit... They are pretty good, not to hard not too soft (thanks to them being progressive springs). Ride height is decent for street use.
Anti-roll bars..... the Progress bars are good, BUT I wouldnt get the front one. a 27mm front bar is WAY too big for any real Highe performance handling.... They are great for the Average driver, but if you plan on learing to drive you wont want it.. (I droped my 25.4mm front bar to a 15.9mm front bar, and upped my 12mm rear bar to a Hollow 25.4mm adjustible bar.) If you do want to get a Larger front bar, Start with one of the 22mm front OEM bars off the sedans (I think the 02-03 sedans had them).
08-25-2004
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Allrighty, first off, here are some pictures, just figured I'd make you want to go do it yourself if you're ever out in my neck of the woods.
Here's me in one of the earlier corners with my buddy Lance in his Lincolin following me.
The hideous body roll of a stock suspension.
Same corner as picture above but you can see from the side how leaned the thing is. Gotta fix that... stock alloys look pretty damn good with the side of the car down that far, heh.
I'll have to do some looking into of the springs that are out there. I'm still thinking Eibach Pro kit or maybe even Sport kit as the drop is more. I know the pro kit is supposed to drop your car by .8 inches, but how much would you guestimate it actually drops the car? What spring(s) do you autocross folks prefer or tend to use more than others?
On the anti-sway side of things, I'm appalled at the amount of bodyroll the car has (middle picture above), if I was any weaker of an individual, I'd get a nosebleed going around corners. Gotta fix that. I've got an 04 EX, so it appears I've got the puny sway bar up front (15.9) (anyone answering this note that I've got the Sedan, not the Coupe). I'd like to increase it just because it cuts down on bodyroll and increases the fun factor, as long as the rear is a bit stiffer than the front, drop-throttle rotation and left-foot-braking should work out nicely. Anohter note, with the current setup and the whole car at the limit or even sliding, the back end it kicked out by about 6 or so inches, so it's doing quite nicely to begin with.
Alignment wise, the front camber kit will be here after I get back from leave next week. Right now the fronts (which are not factory adjustable) are set to about -.5 deg. Rears are at -1.21 deg. All toe is set at 0. After the camber kit gets in, I'll start having the front end re-arranged to make things a little tighter in the turns.
In retrospect and after reading posts on here about Koni shocks for about 4 hours of searching, I'm just gonna save my money and do it right. If your auto-x buddies don't like KYB, I'd just as soon leave them alone too. I liked them for the fact that you didn't have to have a shop yourself or find a compitent shop in order to get them squared away. I'm EXCEEDINGLY nervous to have ANYONE in this part of the country do anything more than look at my car. Come to think of it, I'd drive a couple of hours to get the fronts up and going. Do you know where I can get the front carts and rear shocks for a decent price?
For tires, I'll find the cash to get good ones!
Thanks again, Zzyxz, your knowledge is greatly appreciated.
-John
Here's me in one of the earlier corners with my buddy Lance in his Lincolin following me.
The hideous body roll of a stock suspension.
Same corner as picture above but you can see from the side how leaned the thing is. Gotta fix that... stock alloys look pretty damn good with the side of the car down that far, heh.
I'll have to do some looking into of the springs that are out there. I'm still thinking Eibach Pro kit or maybe even Sport kit as the drop is more. I know the pro kit is supposed to drop your car by .8 inches, but how much would you guestimate it actually drops the car? What spring(s) do you autocross folks prefer or tend to use more than others?
On the anti-sway side of things, I'm appalled at the amount of bodyroll the car has (middle picture above), if I was any weaker of an individual, I'd get a nosebleed going around corners. Gotta fix that. I've got an 04 EX, so it appears I've got the puny sway bar up front (15.9) (anyone answering this note that I've got the Sedan, not the Coupe). I'd like to increase it just because it cuts down on bodyroll and increases the fun factor, as long as the rear is a bit stiffer than the front, drop-throttle rotation and left-foot-braking should work out nicely. Anohter note, with the current setup and the whole car at the limit or even sliding, the back end it kicked out by about 6 or so inches, so it's doing quite nicely to begin with.
Alignment wise, the front camber kit will be here after I get back from leave next week. Right now the fronts (which are not factory adjustable) are set to about -.5 deg. Rears are at -1.21 deg. All toe is set at 0. After the camber kit gets in, I'll start having the front end re-arranged to make things a little tighter in the turns.
In retrospect and after reading posts on here about Koni shocks for about 4 hours of searching, I'm just gonna save my money and do it right. If your auto-x buddies don't like KYB, I'd just as soon leave them alone too. I liked them for the fact that you didn't have to have a shop yourself or find a compitent shop in order to get them squared away. I'm EXCEEDINGLY nervous to have ANYONE in this part of the country do anything more than look at my car. Come to think of it, I'd drive a couple of hours to get the fronts up and going. Do you know where I can get the front carts and rear shocks for a decent price?
For tires, I'll find the cash to get good ones!
Thanks again, Zzyxz, your knowledge is greatly appreciated.
-John
08-26-2004
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Originally Posted by Zzyzx
Ok, I can start this up again...
Anti-roll bars..... the Progress bars are good, BUT I wouldnt get the front one. a 27mm front bar is WAY too big for any real Highe performance handling.... They are great for the Average driver, but if you plan on learing to drive you wont want it.. (I droped my 25.4mm front bar to a 15.9mm front bar, and upped my 12mm rear bar to a Hollow 25.4mm adjustible bar.) If you do want to get a Larger front bar, Start with one of the 22mm front OEM bars off the sedans (I think the 02-03 sedans had them).
Anti-roll bars..... the Progress bars are good, BUT I wouldnt get the front one. a 27mm front bar is WAY too big for any real Highe performance handling.... They are great for the Average driver, but if you plan on learing to drive you wont want it.. (I droped my 25.4mm front bar to a 15.9mm front bar, and upped my 12mm rear bar to a Hollow 25.4mm adjustible bar.) If you do want to get a Larger front bar, Start with one of the 22mm front OEM bars off the sedans (I think the 02-03 sedans had them).
I have a Progress set-up, and I like it. The Progress front AND rear bars will give your car a nice neutral handling, even with the stock shocks and springs. I also added in their coil-overs. For the Bay Area roads, it's a pretty harsh ride for a daily driver.
08-26-2004
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Rep Power: 295 I wouldn't go bigger on the front sway bar, but larger on the back. From what I understand, if you buy a bigger front and rear sway bar, you've basically canceled out the handling effect. It may help to stiffen the body up a little, but if you really budget minded (like me) just go with a bigger rear bar. It reduced body roll in my car and made night and day difference in handling. I would like to go for a really big rear and a new front, but I tihink the spring and what not a more important than getting a realy big rear bar and a larger fron bar.
What I mean by really big rear bar is like a Progressive set of front and back. I use an RSX rear and I think that is great with the stock front. Of course it's been a while since I had just those bars on my car (the RSX rear is slightly more cost effective than the Progessive set up). But I wouldn't want a progressive rear with a stock front. But that's just my .02
What I mean by really big rear bar is like a Progressive set of front and back. I use an RSX rear and I think that is great with the stock front. Of course it's been a while since I had just those bars on my car (the RSX rear is slightly more cost effective than the Progessive set up). But I wouldn't want a progressive rear with a stock front. But that's just my .02
08-26-2004
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How much body roll would you guess that the progress set knocked out? As you can see from the pics above, I've got more body roll than I know what do do wth. In the last two pictures, that corner was being taken at about 35 mph in second with my foot on the floor and the car fairly close to the limit of traction, just far enough back from the limit to allow for line changes just in case.
Would you say that with the progress bars installed the overall handling ballance of the car stayed about the same? I'd like the same ballance as stock without the sickening lean and left-to-right slop...
Are the progress coilovers adjustable? If not, do you know what their spring rate is? I live on the east coast and the roads are crappy out here but I don't mind a "sports car" ride.
Jrfish:
From what I understand about suspension set up, if you go wtih a larger rear and leave the front alone, it tends to make the back end loser allowing you to get around tight low speed corners quicker. It can be a detriment in high-speed sweepers, though as the front suspension will tend to load wheras the back can break loose. The larger the differance between the two ends, the faster the tail comes around when it does break loose as the front will just lean more and dig in.
On an autocross track, you want the car to rotate (read: back end get loose) at lower speeds, hence the larger swaybar in back as opposed to front. On a road-course track where the speeds are higher you'd probably want more ballanced handling.
How much body roll would you guess that the progress set knocked out? As you can see from the pics above, I've got more body roll than I know what do do wth. In the last two pictures, that corner was being taken at about 35 mph in second with my foot on the floor and the car fairly close to the limit of traction, just far enough back from the limit to allow for line changes just in case.
Would you say that with the progress bars installed the overall handling ballance of the car stayed about the same? I'd like the same ballance as stock without the sickening lean and left-to-right slop...
Are the progress coilovers adjustable? If not, do you know what their spring rate is? I live on the east coast and the roads are crappy out here but I don't mind a "sports car" ride.
Jrfish:
From what I understand about suspension set up, if you go wtih a larger rear and leave the front alone, it tends to make the back end loser allowing you to get around tight low speed corners quicker. It can be a detriment in high-speed sweepers, though as the front suspension will tend to load wheras the back can break loose. The larger the differance between the two ends, the faster the tail comes around when it does break loose as the front will just lean more and dig in.
On an autocross track, you want the car to rotate (read: back end get loose) at lower speeds, hence the larger swaybar in back as opposed to front. On a road-course track where the speeds are higher you'd probably want more ballanced handling.
08-27-2004
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Originally Posted by nivenmk1
Albs:
Jrfish:
From what I understand about suspension set up, if you go wtih a larger rear and leave the front alone, it tends to make the back end loser allowing you to get around tight low speed corners quicker. It can be a detriment in high-speed sweepers, though as the front suspension will tend to load wheras the back can break loose. The larger the differance between the two ends, the faster the tail comes around when it does break loose as the front will just lean more and dig in.
On an autocross track, you want the car to rotate (read: back end get loose) at lower speeds, hence the larger swaybar in back as opposed to front. On a road-course track where the speeds are higher you'd probably want more ballanced handling.
Jrfish:
From what I understand about suspension set up, if you go wtih a larger rear and leave the front alone, it tends to make the back end loser allowing you to get around tight low speed corners quicker. It can be a detriment in high-speed sweepers, though as the front suspension will tend to load wheras the back can break loose. The larger the differance between the two ends, the faster the tail comes around when it does break loose as the front will just lean more and dig in.
On an autocross track, you want the car to rotate (read: back end get loose) at lower speeds, hence the larger swaybar in back as opposed to front. On a road-course track where the speeds are higher you'd probably want more ballanced handling.
The other nice thing about the RSX bar is that if you buy one off this website or clubRSX.com, you can turn around and sell it for the same price you bought it at and all you are really out is what you paid to have it shipped to you. If you go and buy a progressive roll bar set or smething, you'll never make that money back. That's just my .02
By the way, my set up on my car is:
RSX rear sway bar
Neuspeed front strut bar
and a good set of Falkens.
The Neuspeed front strut bar gave me alot of understeer (I knew it would too) and I am currently debteing taking it off or tring to readjust by getting a Cusco rear strut bar. But over all the front strut bar made my steering much tighter, that's why I kept it on.
No I don't have any springs or anything, I use my car in the winter too, and if I lower it more than what it is, it will become a snow plow for my drive way. And I don't like coilovers because they throw to many variables off spec (alignment, camber and ect.). SO just comprimised on a stock suspension with some little things to help with turning. This set up probably has close to a stock type balance, but with a much tighter steering and less roll.
08-27-2004
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Rep Power: 295 I've also been curiou as to how one of those X-brases from Neuspeed would work on my car.
08-27-2004
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Originally Posted by half_n_half17
I've got the progress sway bar kit and some tokico's with stock springs, but i still feel the car lean under heavy turning. I've never calculated my skidpad numbers, but i've driven around enough cirlces to be able to compare how the suspension compresses with/with out the mods. I could definitely see how stiffer springs would help the skidpad numbers as there would be even less lean, with a more even weight distribution over the 4 tires. I'd think that the sway bars would have a greater effect than springs, but that's just a guess.
08-27-2004
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Rep Power: 0 So now I guess the question is moreso one of, "Will the RSX rear swaybar fit the sedan?" I've searched around, but to no avail. Anyone have any imput on it?
I understand that most all cars will lean unless you do some really drastic mods... I've got a buddy with an old fiero, 2 inch lowering springs, a 2 inch front swaybar and a 1.75 inch rear and he'll go skittering sideways before he leans... Thats a little extreme for me, though. That and the tighter you make the suspension, the less forgiving (generally) it is at the limit.
Thanks for the input, I'll keep pokin' around.
Jrfish:
How have the falken's done for ya? Any idea on tread life? And how do you find their wet traction/hydroplane resistance to be?
Thanks again,
John
I understand that most all cars will lean unless you do some really drastic mods... I've got a buddy with an old fiero, 2 inch lowering springs, a 2 inch front swaybar and a 1.75 inch rear and he'll go skittering sideways before he leans... Thats a little extreme for me, though. That and the tighter you make the suspension, the less forgiving (generally) it is at the limit.
Thanks for the input, I'll keep pokin' around.
Jrfish:
How have the falken's done for ya? Any idea on tread life? And how do you find their wet traction/hydroplane resistance to be?
Thanks again,
John
08-27-2004
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Originally Posted by EternalBlue_Vic
Ur body's still leaning under heavy turning because you have the stock springs. Even with lowering springs the body would still lean under hard turning, but very negligable compared to the stock springs
but like I siad I don't want to lower my car. But like I siad too, the RSX bar helped loads in reducing the roll untill I push the car.
08-27-2004
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Originally Posted by nivenmk1
So now I guess the question is moreso one of, "Will the RSX rear swaybar fit the sedan?" I've searched around, but to no avail. Anyone have any imput on it?
I understand that most all cars will lean unless you do some really drastic mods... I've got a buddy with an old fiero, 2 inch lowering springs, a 2 inch front swaybar and a 1.75 inch rear and he'll go skittering sideways before he leans... Thats a little extreme for me, though. That and the tighter you make the suspension, the less forgiving (generally) it is at the limit.
Thanks for the input, I'll keep pokin' around.
Jrfish:
How have the falken's done for ya? Any idea on tread life? And how do you find their wet traction/hydroplane resistance to be?
Thanks again,
John
I understand that most all cars will lean unless you do some really drastic mods... I've got a buddy with an old fiero, 2 inch lowering springs, a 2 inch front swaybar and a 1.75 inch rear and he'll go skittering sideways before he leans... Thats a little extreme for me, though. That and the tighter you make the suspension, the less forgiving (generally) it is at the limit.
Thanks for the input, I'll keep pokin' around.
Jrfish:
How have the falken's done for ya? Any idea on tread life? And how do you find their wet traction/hydroplane resistance to be?
Thanks again,
John
Anyway, the falken are great. I have gone all the throgh a set yet, I'm about half way through with about 10K on them. But I'm going to guess I will have to replace them around 20K, give or take a couple thousand miles. As for wet traction, I haven't had a problem, but I drive like a old grandma in wet weather. The coefcient of friction for a wet road is only 2/3 that of dry, so you only have 2/3 of the grip you have on dry, so I tend to be more cautious because other aren't. But I have hit some areas with 4-5 inchs of water and been fine going about 25 and hit about 2 inch areas going about 45-50 and not had a problem.
08-27-2004
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Originally Posted by Jrfish007
I know... but like I siad I don't want to lower my car. But like I siad too, the RSX bar helped loads in reducing the roll untill I push the car.
but like I siad I don't want to lower my car. But like I siad too, the RSX bar helped loads in reducing the roll untill I push the car.
08-27-2004
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Originally Posted by EternalBlue_Vic
So you're lookin to reduce body roll without lowering the car?? Hmmm. Some real heavy duty shocks are all i can think of and that may not even be right.
08-27-2004
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Rep Power: 356 Theres a lot of good information here...
My advice to anyone looking to get the most out of their cars handling, Change one part at a time.
nivenmk1, the RSX bar will fit a sedan just fine. and a 19mm bar is a good place to start. also, Don't worry about body roll so much. Performance wise Body roll only does 2 detrimental things for handling. 1. it annoys the driver and 2. it causes a bit of camber loss (which can be corrected for by running a bit of negitive camber). remember that cars, espeically street cars need a bit of flex in the suspension, other wise they just skip accrost the road (like that Fiero).. now does a car that skips accrost the road when it reaches its cornering limits sound like a good handling car??? To me it doesent... sounds like the car is WAY too stiff. (Not to mention that Street tires dont react well to overly stiff suspensions) that brings up a saying... a tire in the air can make no traction... so if the car is skiping in a corner, its not makeing as much traction as it would if it wern't skipping in the corners.
Jrfish007, if you want to improve handling but keep the stock ride height you could allways get a set of ground controls and adjust the ride height to be about stock.... BUT little known fact, A car will handle better with stock springs and perfromance shocks then it would with performance springs and OEM shocks. So, go find some good shocks to go with your stock springs. Tokico HP's would be an improvement over stock, but Konis are the way to go for best handling.
My advice to anyone looking to get the most out of their cars handling, Change one part at a time.
nivenmk1, the RSX bar will fit a sedan just fine. and a 19mm bar is a good place to start. also, Don't worry about body roll so much. Performance wise Body roll only does 2 detrimental things for handling. 1. it annoys the driver and 2. it causes a bit of camber loss (which can be corrected for by running a bit of negitive camber). remember that cars, espeically street cars need a bit of flex in the suspension, other wise they just skip accrost the road (like that Fiero).. now does a car that skips accrost the road when it reaches its cornering limits sound like a good handling car??? To me it doesent... sounds like the car is WAY too stiff. (Not to mention that Street tires dont react well to overly stiff suspensions) that brings up a saying... a tire in the air can make no traction... so if the car is skiping in a corner, its not makeing as much traction as it would if it wern't skipping in the corners.
Jrfish007, if you want to improve handling but keep the stock ride height you could allways get a set of ground controls and adjust the ride height to be about stock.... BUT little known fact, A car will handle better with stock springs and perfromance shocks then it would with performance springs and OEM shocks. So, go find some good shocks to go with your stock springs. Tokico HP's would be an improvement over stock, but Konis are the way to go for best handling.
08-27-2004
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Rep Power: 258 I have an 03sedan and can verify the RSX 19mm rear most definetly fits just fine, although sometimes it taps the exhaust and says hello.
I have been tinkering with swaybars for almost a year now. First I got the RSX rear bar, got rid of a lot of understeer, a little body roll. Then I noticed how flexy this chassis can get. Drove that around for a while but didn't like how it still wandered at high speed. Then I got an 01' 25.4mm OEM front swaybar. Way less body roll now, but steering response is horrible and understeers heavily at lower speed. Tracks great on the highway however. The next step would be to try a 22mm rear swaybar, but I would have to buy better endlinks and worry about the subframe pulling out.
Since I don't have the funds to keep going this route, and thinking that a well-prepped STS car won't be very good as a daily driver, and I want to autocross before I change cars, I'm leaning towards stock class. I think I'll sell my sways and strut bar, get konis, and some real tires and see what this thing can do. Any advice zz?
My advice is to not go the swaybar route unless you are sure you can later upgrade the springs/shocks, because after about a year I'm not happy with it at all. I took our rental ford foci through a fun canyon road recently, then tried it in my car, and nearly cried. Everyone here complains about our tiny 1.7 motor but it's really the chassis that is embarassing IMHO. Am I alone or does anyone agree with me?
I have been tinkering with swaybars for almost a year now. First I got the RSX rear bar, got rid of a lot of understeer, a little body roll. Then I noticed how flexy this chassis can get. Drove that around for a while but didn't like how it still wandered at high speed. Then I got an 01' 25.4mm OEM front swaybar. Way less body roll now, but steering response is horrible and understeers heavily at lower speed. Tracks great on the highway however. The next step would be to try a 22mm rear swaybar, but I would have to buy better endlinks and worry about the subframe pulling out.
Since I don't have the funds to keep going this route, and thinking that a well-prepped STS car won't be very good as a daily driver, and I want to autocross before I change cars, I'm leaning towards stock class. I think I'll sell my sways and strut bar, get konis, and some real tires and see what this thing can do. Any advice zz?
My advice is to not go the swaybar route unless you are sure you can later upgrade the springs/shocks, because after about a year I'm not happy with it at all. I took our rental ford foci through a fun canyon road recently, then tried it in my car, and nearly cried. Everyone here complains about our tiny 1.7 motor but it's really the chassis that is embarassing IMHO. Am I alone or does anyone agree with me?
08-27-2004
#27
My SL65 rim, because a rim is all I can afford
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Originally Posted by Sickboy
I have an 03sedan and can verify the RSX 19mm rear most definetly fits just fine, although sometimes it taps the exhaust and says hello.
I have been tinkering with swaybars for almost a year now. First I got the RSX rear bar, got rid of a lot of understeer, a little body roll. Then I noticed how flexy this chassis can get. Drove that around for a while but didn't like how it still wandered at high speed. Then I got an 01' 25.4mm OEM front swaybar. Way less body roll now, but steering response is horrible and understeers heavily at lower speed. Tracks great on the highway however. The next step would be to try a 22mm rear swaybar, but I would have to buy better endlinks and worry about the subframe pulling out.
Since I don't have the funds to keep going this route, and thinking that a well-prepped STS car won't be very good as a daily driver, and I want to autocross before I change cars, I'm leaning towards stock class. I think I'll sell my sways and strut bar, get konis, and some real tires and see what this thing can do. Any advice zz?
My advice is to not go the swaybar route unless you are sure you can later upgrade the springs/shocks, because after about a year I'm not happy with it at all. I took our rental ford foci through a fun canyon road recently, then tried it in my car, and nearly cried. Everyone here complains about our tiny 1.7 motor but it's really the chassis that is embarassing IMHO. Am I alone or does anyone agree with me?
I have been tinkering with swaybars for almost a year now. First I got the RSX rear bar, got rid of a lot of understeer, a little body roll. Then I noticed how flexy this chassis can get. Drove that around for a while but didn't like how it still wandered at high speed. Then I got an 01' 25.4mm OEM front swaybar. Way less body roll now, but steering response is horrible and understeers heavily at lower speed. Tracks great on the highway however. The next step would be to try a 22mm rear swaybar, but I would have to buy better endlinks and worry about the subframe pulling out.
Since I don't have the funds to keep going this route, and thinking that a well-prepped STS car won't be very good as a daily driver, and I want to autocross before I change cars, I'm leaning towards stock class. I think I'll sell my sways and strut bar, get konis, and some real tires and see what this thing can do. Any advice zz?
My advice is to not go the swaybar route unless you are sure you can later upgrade the springs/shocks, because after about a year I'm not happy with it at all. I took our rental ford foci through a fun canyon road recently, then tried it in my car, and nearly cried. Everyone here complains about our tiny 1.7 motor but it's really the chassis that is embarassing IMHO. Am I alone or does anyone agree with me?
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