sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

the heavier, the harder to change it's speed, so it should be harder to accelerate and... Stop. Also, should affect unsuspended weight for the suspension to work.
that's the reason they "feel" faster. In the end, however, it's a small amount of the total weight. But like the strut bar, the feel is different.
On the other hand, the strut bar gives you confidence. lighter wheels will make you feel faster, but does not actually help you go faster. Might improve suspension reaction, though.
So i am still rocking my stocky steelies, they save me gas and less costly tires and the looks does not bother me :P The 16"s will go in to wear down the current tires on them eventually, but prolly some extreme perf tires will find their way to them

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

guess i will hang onto the rims i have for now and look into steelies for the future. with how cheap they are for new, theres nothing to lose. my tires are terrible beyond belief, never spend $50 on a tire and think it will do something

MindBomber

I think that sites legit man, I'd go for it. They look like a company that specializes in discontinued wheels and that would explain why they're both cheap and available.

maxtierney

iTrader: (5)

Both schools of thought need to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm no expert nor am I a physicist, but here goes:

I agree that wheel/tire mass will have negligible effects, while in motion. A guy named Newton would back me up on this as well. To paraphrase his First Law, "The velocity of a body remains constant unless the body is acted upon by an external force" - Or simply stated, A body in motion tends to stay in motion. On the track, the combnined wheel and tire weight have little downside. In fact, the narrower tire in the test actually "felt" better to most of the drivers. I support this too. You should only go with a tire that allows for sufficient traction and braking performance. Any wider and you will actually hinder your performance due to increased rolling resistance/friction, tramlining, wandering, etc.

With that in mind, let's go to Newton's Second Law, which states, "The acceleration a of a body is parallel and directly proportional to the net force F and inversely proportional to the mass m, i.e., F = ma." Huh? Just keep reading...

This is where I have some differing opinions from the magazine test. As stated numerous times before, our Civics are not torque monsters. There is barely enough momentum or force in the anemic D17 to overcome the second part of the First Law. "A body at rest tends to stay at rest". If you increase the Mass (of the wheel) and Force remains constant (D17 torque), Acceleration should and will DECREASE. Why were the results negligible in with the Miata Test? Here's my opinion:

Yes, a 2.7 lb lighter wheel with the SAME DIAMETER will produce negligible results. However, this 2.7 lbs is distributed evenly across the same diameter wheel, which isn't the true deal breaker.

Step down a size from a 15" to 14" or up a size to a 16", the same 2.7 lbs will make more of a difference (I know we aren't arguing rotational mass here, bear with me). So let's talk same size wheel then...

It's got to be more than 2.7 lbs if we are talking same diameter and lighter weight in the same breath as performance enhancing. The CP-035s (mentioned earlier by Gearbox), Regamasters and SW388s are SUB-9 POUND wheels! That's a 5O percent weight reduction, folks! That's what I would call a lightweight wheel. Not a 2.7 lbs reduction with an alloy from an 18lbs steelie. Pffft. Or 2.7 lbs off a 19.6 lb, 17 inch wheel. Meh.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE, when we're talking about substantial weight reduction. Hell, even tire weights can vary up to TWO pounds between manufacturers. What's 8 or 9 more ounces on top off that? Nada.

Any and all weight savings taken from unsprung weight is a good thing. Trust me. This is coming from the 19" wheel guy. Most people add or lose weight by up or downsizing, not going lighter with the SAME DIAMETER wheels. Gearbox is the only person that I can recall ever saying something to that effect, since forever ago. Plus it's a cumulative thing...

Save 4 lbs on a just a "lighter" wheel (vs. 9lbs with "lightweight" wheel). Do some homework, get a lighter tire, another 1lb savings. Forged lugs vs Gorillas Or OEM (4 oz per lug = 1 lb per wheel). Hello, that's 6 pounds! 2/3 of the weight reduction of a Spoon Race, but only 1/2 the price. You'll feel it, AND back it up with better times, gas milage, braking, etc.

The end.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

so you are saying it wont do much going from 18 lbs to 8 lbs if you are staying with 15s? hmm. but then where is the line drawn and how lighter does a 14 inch rim have to be to match up. the insight uses 13 lb bridgestone tires but the reviews rate them as the worst tire ever made. most other normal tires are 19 lbs or more. so what is the benefit of less weight if the car sucks at driving. you are saying that 8lb 15s are not much better than 18lb 15s as far as the inertia laws go. so how much better would say 12 lb 14s be? then ofcourse you reduce the tire width and are stuck with much worse tire choices. i guess its time to decide if saving 40 lbs is worth going from bmw cornering to kia cornering and to me its not...

maxtierney

iTrader: (5)

Sorry. long winded post. Difference from 18 to 8lbs, same 15's - BIG. Difference from 18 to 15lbs, same 15's - Slight. Heck, 15" Rotas will get you in the 12lb ballpark - Noticable. Forged will get you 10 and below.

Anytime you downsize in diameter (even staying same weight), there is a difference. A 12lb, 14" - Big Difference.

But, tire selection is what's killing you. 13s and 14s aren't a common zize anymore. Used to be able to go to any store and take one off the rack. They're special order nowadays. Good luck with finding even an H rated 13 or 14, nowadays (mostly, S and T rated). 15s are a good compromise.

Shift-E

That all makes sense, but a part of me just doesn't seem to fully believe yet. I dunno, you can write something down, and expect result, but when you get out there they might be different all results completely.

I'm not saying your wrong, I'm no physicist either, i'm just saying a part of me wants to see before I believe.

maxtierney

iTrader: (5)

First Post!

I hear ya bro. Seeing is Believing, applies for most things in life.

Except for Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the 5WHP gained from my SRI.

maxtierney

iTrader: (5)

Double Post!

maxtierney

iTrader: (5)

Triple Post!

Headstrong Perf

I think it is surprising because of rotating mass. It takes more powa to get those wheels rolling than it would a lighter wheel. Good read though.

MindBomber

Max, you don't need to post-***** to get into our marketplace ya know

MindBomber

Max, about the triple post, you don't need to post-***** to get into our marketplace ya know

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

haha lol. okay well lemme think about it, may end up with the racingharts idk. or keep what i have for now. 13.6 lbs isnt terrible for konigs even tho they suck for build quality.

maxtierney

iTrader: (5)

Haha! I hate posting from my phone. It'll freeze up or I'll have to hit the reply a couple of times... Voila! Double and triple posts galore.

Marketplace ain't what I thought it would be. But seeing is believing!

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

well, the thing that did catch my eyes was the last page, with the previous test they did. 13.5 lb wheels against the 22lb wheels. That was a difference.
But did not translate into better autoX (note that) times.
I was also surprised of the fact of the unsprung weight not having much effect, which i would have expected in a autoX course. Might have advantages when on road track? would have been interesting if they had tried that on a course, maybe we should ask GRM for it :P

Ah, yes, they tested the 3rd gen miata this time, with the larger 2 liter, but previous test was also done in the 1st gen miata, 1.6 - not torque mosnters in any means - mine 2nd gen is not either, the car is just... light, so more prone to see differences in wheel momentum resistance for acceleration.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

and GB, i would also recommend getting the 15's... they much cheaper nowadays, i guess and more choices.

Now, Max, if you do change the outer diameter, yes, that will change the car slightly - i use the 205/55R16, slightly larger than the stock 185/65R15, buuuut, they still got me the best mileage ever (heavier, so highway driving they simply kept rolling... No matter if engine was running higher).
Actually, a friend who have a 71 velle, said he got faster speed, slower time at the end of strip when rolling steelies (around 10 lb heavier?)

and yes, all drivers thought it did a difference, but the clock did not show it... again, wonder how it would be in stop-and-go traffic or road course, which are different.

maxtierney

iTrader: (5)

I agree with you on road courses vs autocross. Two totally different animals. Chassis setup, while still important, is seconday to your ability to get maximum exit speed. That's why late apex is preferred over the theoretically optimum mid apex approach. Horsepower,or in this case acceleration, is king. AC is more technical, with emphasis on setup, and most importantly driver's ability. That why its never surprising to see slower cars beating out "faster" cars.

green01civic

What style of tire are you looking to purchase?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

prolly just oem size 15s either Pirelli p4, goodyear assurance comfortread, or michelin energy saver a/s. any inputs on them?

green01civic

If you are looking for an all-around daily driving tire... I'm extremely happy with my current Michelin Primacy MXV4's (Grand Touring All-Season). H Rated. UTQG: 620/A/A. My only complaint is they feel a little squishy and weird if you are driving on a grated surface (like some bridges), but are solid performers in dry and wet conditions, and very acceptable in snow (0-degree days and a blizzard this past winter, and I never got stuck anywhere. It was just me and SUV's on the road by the time it was a state of emergency.)

I hear they've updated them with the new "Primacy MXM4" tire (new rubber compound and even lower rolling resistance) which have a UTQG of 500/AA/A. I haven't driven on the newer MXM4 personally, but would consider them without reservations.

If you are looking for something all-season but sportier, Michelin Pilot Exalto A/S (High Performance All-Season). H Rated. UTQG: 400/A/A. I had these on my Accord, and they were awesome. Really an excellent tire. Stiffer walls and more aggressive tread pattern than the Primacy's, I used to drive my Accord pretty hard, and they were pretty good when cornering. Also I recall the one winter that I drove in the snow with them (after switching off of Dunlop SP's that came with the car, and were perhaps the worst tire I've ever driven on) and I felt like I was in a damn SUV because they had such improved snow traction.

For my Civic, it really came down to the Primacy MXV4 vs. Pilot Exalto A/S... the Primacy's won out because my more practical side won... I decided the longer treadlife (60k vs 45k) and increased comfort were more important than taking turns super fast.

If money is more of a concern but you don't want to sacrifice performance, I'd say take a hard look at General Altimax HP tires. A friend of mine turned me on to them initially, and I've since checked them out and they review very well... a solid performer at a lower price-point than the michelins. H Rated. UTQG: 440/A/A. I've since recommended them to my sister who also owns a Civic and she is happy with them.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

im not cheaping out this time, lesson learned, so prolly may go with some kind of michelin. ive heard very good reviews for goodyear too so idk.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

im pretty sure im set on the goodyears. $90 per tire, rated #1 tire for the size im looking at, all ratings superior except a few excellent. this is looking like a near perfect tire.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....n&autoModClar=

either those or the michelin energy savers which dont seem to be as quiet as the goodyears

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....num=865TR5ESAS

green01civic

My only qualms about the goodyears would be the relatively low number of "miles" and total reviews of it (cause it's newer, so people haven't exactly gone the distance on them). Also I prefer H rated tires, lol. I'd compare it closely with the Primacy MXV4, not the Energy Saver. (The MXV4 is also Low Rolling Resistance, so gas mileage should be comparable).

maxtierney

iTrader: (5)

You would think a tire with lower rolling resistance would have a higher UTOQ.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

oh crap i just noticed the T rating for goodyears. looks like those are out for me lol. what do you think about the energy saver michelins? bah those are T rated also? okay why are they even listing those for my car.

green01civic

Perhaps the composition doesn't hold together the rubber as much, I don't think that rolling resistance and hardness of tread are necessarily 1 to 1 (though there is probably a correlation).

(Also, UTQG has room for some play so that manufacturers can tier their tires.)
Example:
Tire A has true 600/A/A rating, and Tire B has a true 600/A/A rating, but michelin decides to introduce them at different price points (and warranty levels to match). They then take Tire B (for lower price point) and label them 400/A/A instead. They're allowed to mark them lower than what they're rated for, just not higher than they are.

I have no idea why they'd list them, but that's why I mentioned I prefer an 'H' haha. Especially useless as most tire shops won't put on lower rated tires than stock (which was a pain when I wanted to put H's on my sisters old Ford Probe GT, which for some dumb *** reason came stock with V's).

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

okay some progress. that site with the cheap racingharts is a joke. i asked them stuff about how it works and they said first to buy anything you need to become a member for $20. then after that they hire people to search their hundreds of warehouses to find the amount and brand of rims you want to buy. when or if they find them (says it could take months, and you are paying the monthly membership), they will ship them to you for the sale price. the problem is even if they find em, these are ALL damaged wheels that were sent back from companies due to them having misc damage like a ding, scratch, etc some damage serious enough that they couldnt sell it at retail. so no that not for me lol.

ive been asking around about the insight rims and the answer im hearing about why they have a rep of being "weak" is actually the oem tire's fault. im being told the rims are perfectly fine and with a weight around 12 lbs they are strong enough for a regular civic no problem. its the tiny and lightweight motorcycle tires they come with stock that are not thick enough to absorb impacts and so the rims bend or crack even on the light insight. he said the dx/lx tire size which is a full size 19 lb normal tire with lots of meat should be no problem on them. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....n&autoModclar=

so heres what im going with in october: honda insight rims and tires (1st gen insight) and some pirelli P4 four seasons 14s for tires in the stock 2001 dx tire size. these tires overall got great reviews and yes i know they are 14s and have a T speed rating. i would never go 100mph anymore so not too worried about that. it wouldve been nice to get a lighter tire too but anything under 19 lbs is junk. im getting these $200 a piece refurbished insight rims instead of the new $400 a piece from honda which also is not in stock and has to be made in japan i believe. not really worth the trouble. http://www.originalwheels.com/honda-...ht2000rims.php

that should be one of the last mods to this car before i give up and start saving for something new. its starting to get so bad right now i dont know how much longer it will last before something breaks down. and theres no way im spending $4-5k on a new trans with the same old problems on a car worth less than $4k right now lol. i would really like the car to last another 5 yrs tho and i will be super happy. im not sure it will tho...

MindBomber

Wow, the sketchiness of that site is unbelievable, who buys a monthly membership as a part of ordering wheels. I doubt they even have the capability of supplying wheels in reality.

sdaidoji

iTrader: (1)

Oh, C R A P...
I thought the post came through...
The lower rolling resistance are quite tied to tire weight, it seems that they decided is the main reason. So that means less meat in them. Meaning less total groove depth - less tread life... Less rubber to go through, is all...
smaller blocks should bend less too, i guess.