Tutty6

Hi everyone. Last year, I replaced my timing belt and surrounding components. I created a thread last year regarding an issue I had during the process which can be seen here:

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...mp-change.html

Fast forward a year later (~20,000 KM later), I started up my car one morning and heard what sounded like a loose belt flapping around under the timing covers. I then quickly proceeded to shut the car off. I used my flashlight to inspect around the timing covers and couldn't see any visible issues. So, I proceeded to start the car again. This time after letting it idle for 30 seconds, I noticed the idle drop slightly. I then quickly shut the car off again and made some phone calls to a couple friends who are seasoned veterans in the world of mechanics. I proceeded to start the car again as directed by my friend, but this time the motor would not even turn over! As I turned the key to start the car, it simply sounded like a wheel that was freely spinning. I would like to note that my car was not in motion, and rpms never raised higher than 1100. So, I decided to tackle the issue after work and started disassembling what I needed to in order to access the timing belt. Sure enough, I found that the aftermarket Continental brand timing belt tensioner had COMPLETELY FAILED! By completely failed, I mean that the pulley completely separated from the tensioner and there were ball bearings everywhere under the lower timing cover. It was also evident that the belt had completely slipped off of the tensioner, but was still routed over the camshaft pulley, water pump, and crankshaft pulley. The belt got lodged between the side of the tensioner (where the tensioner bolts to the block) and the timing cover, blowing a massive hole through the plastic timing cover. The belt would not move when I tried to rotate the crankshaft by hand with a socket wrench, so I had no choice but to cut off the belt and set the engine to TDC with the belt off. The crankshaft was easy to line up with the marker on the oil pump as there was no resistance when turning it. However, there was so much resistance when trying to turn the camshaft pulley by the bolt in the center of the sprocket, that I was scared to apply major force. The UP marker on the camshaft was at the 10 o' clock position, but I needed it to be at the 12 o' clock position. Knowing that this is a CCW rotating engine, I tried to rotate the camshaft pulley a full rotation CCW. However I couldn't do it (later learned that this is because the valve springs are under extreme tension). So, I stupidly rotated the camshaft clockwise to the 12 o' clock position thinking that it would make no difference so long as the UP marker was facing up. I then proceeded to install the new timing belt and tensioner and made sure that all my timing marks were lined up (at this point could my camshaft have been off correct timing by a full 360 CCW rotation?). I put everything back together and proceeded to try and start the car. Unfortunately, the same thing happened.... sounded like the starter was just spinning (freely spinning wheel sound), and this time there was a loud backfire out of the exhaust, motor did not turn over. My friend who works at a shop said that these are symptoms of the timing being off. Can someone please guide me in the right direction?

CraigW

iTrader: (1)

Non OEM = Not recommended.....regardless of savings.

Tutty6

Thanks for the reply Craig. Yea, I unfortunately made the decision to use the auto-tensioner that came with the Continental Contitech timing belt kit. I learned the hard way and that's unfortunately the way she goes. I need to figure out what the next step is going forward and any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Tutty6

If the crankshaft spins twice for every rotation of the camshaft, could it be that I am off by a 360 rotation of the crankshaft because I rotated the camshaft backwards to TDC? Looking down the spark plug well of cylinder 1 with a flashlight, I can see that the piston is at the highest point. Could it be that I am at TDC for the exhaust stroke and not the compression stroke?

ezone

Bent valves.

Tutty6

​​​​​Thanks for the reply ezone. What symptoms that I described tell you right away that I bent valves? If my timing is indeed off, a compression test will be irrelevant. Is there a way for me to check to see if I actually bent valves?

Tutty6

The reason why I believe I don't have bent valves is because the car was not even in motion. I understand that these d17s are interference motors, but I was not in motion when any of this happened. Also, when I first took everything apart, the timing belt lost tension but it didn't skip any teeth. I just don't understand why the motor stopped turning over all together. Could the loss of tension in the belt upon failure of the tensioner cause this? I never had the backfire out the exhaust symptom until after I put the new belt and tensioner on. My theory is that the motor refused to turn over the first time because of a lack of tension on the belt. This time it's because my timing is off. Please feel free to disagree with me but also explain why I'm wrong so I can learn from this experience! Thanks in advance

ezone

The PCM can and will shut down the engine if it determines the cam/crank sensor signals synchronization are misaligned too far.

Strike 3) You spun the crank through without the timing belt installed.
Strike 3) You spun the cam after the crank was set up to TDC

====================

So....you already did part of this....move on to the next troubleshooting steps:

Correctly restore the timing between the crank pulley and cam pulley, fix the pulley problem so timing does not jump or go slack.
Spin it a few revolutions by hand to make sure it stays in time.

Crank engine.
Does it sound like it has compression? On ANY cylinders?
If no, then perform compression tests to prove which cylinders have been affected by compression loss, then do leakdown tests to all affected cylinders to determine where that leakage is going. .





In the shop, after hearing the tale of woe...I might pull the valve cover and look for which valves have WAAAAY too much clearance.

Tutty6

Ezone, I really appreciate the quick responses and the knowledge you are giving me. I am certainly on the same page as you. Here's the next steps I will be taking as per your explanations. Please feel free to correct any mistakes:

1) Take tension off of the timing belt, and completely remove it.

2) Rotate the crank to 90 degrees away from TDC (9 o' clock position) so that all pistons are at the middle point of their bore strokes (interference engine, this way ensures that valves will not collide with pistons when I rotate the cam in the next step)

3) Rotate the camshaft pulley a full counter clockwise rotation by the bolt located at the center of the pulley and line up the timing marks back to TDC (can you clarify whether or not the cam caps need to be loosened in order for me to do this?)

4) Bring the crank back to TDC and line up the mark to the arrow on the oil pump

5) Reinstall belt and tensioner, and rotate the engine counter clockwise a few times by hand (make sure all marks line up)

is there anything I have missed or anything you would like to add? If this fails, I will do exactly as you said and perform a compression test and leak down tests on the affected cylinders.

mikey1

you should have stopped there,

why would you continue to start it when you know something is wrong?

your valves could have been saved at that point, now they are toast

ezone

HOLD IT

Didn't you say you already have a new belt correctly installed with a new tensioner pulley, also correctly installed?

Tutty6

​​​​​
Because I ****ed up.... big time... and now am going to have to pay for the stupidity.

Tutty6

That is the thing ezone. It's installed correctly as far as I can tell. All timing marks line up and they continue to line up even after rotating the engine multiple times by hand. At this point should I be trying a compression test ?

ezone

It's installed. You're done.

You cranked it, right? Didn't you say it sounded very wrong?
Yes if you need proof.



Personally, upon evaluation, I might not. I might skip steps and move to gathering other proof.

Tutty6

other proof such as pulling the head and actually visually inspecting the valves?

mikey1

if you already have a new tensioner and belt installed, you might as well just try to fire it up, you have nothing to lose at this point,

if it wont start, or runs rough, then proceed to other options

ezone

Nope, not yet. Yes, see reply #8 in this thread

Have you got this far yet?

Tutty6

Won't have time to turn anymore wrenches until tomorrow. Sigh... it's seeming more and more like I have bent valves. The freely spinning wheel sound when I try to start the car is a result of a lack of compression (motor must be turning over if it is producing a backfire out the tailpipe), as per my buddy that works at a shop. So my initial statement that the motor isnt turning over is false .If my timing marks are all lining up, it makes no sense that my timing is off (which would be the only other reason, besides bent valves, to why I have a lack of compression). All signs are currently pointing towards a re and re of the engine in the near future for me. Having said this, I'm going to do a compression test tomorrow and report back with the numbers. If I have 0 compression across all 4 cylinders this most likely means my timing is off correct? If I have variant values for the compressions across each different cylinder, this is more likely that I have bent valves (Ie. 70 psi on cylinder 1 and 140 psi on cylinder 2). Am I right with these two statements?

ezone

You mean the cylinder head?


No.
The compression test only tells you some compression numbers.

YOU have to evaluate and determine the reasons for whatever numbers you get.

To prove anything, that usually means you need to progress to the next step(s) in the troubleshooting tree.