robfarr56

The title says it all.
2002 Civic EX sedan.
119,000 miles

It had its first alternator replacement about 3 weeks ago. Due to time constraints, I could not take it to the dealer, opting instead for the neighborhood shop that I have had good luck with in the past.

Wednesday, it quit charging again. No warning like a squealing belt.
I had it towed back to the same shop (warranty), and picked it up yesterday, the man looking very embarrased that a fastener had come loose.

Well, maybe they didn't put the wingnut assembly back together right the first time, but it came loose on me again tonight, when I accidently took off from a stop in 2nd gear and unintentionally lugged the engine.

I got the worst belt squeal I have ever heard. I turned around to go home, but it quit. So I went on to the store.
Coming out of the store, I popped the hood, and found the wingnut on the alternator very, VERY loose. I tightened it up as best I could. It is acting like it needs a pair of pliers taken to it. Lock washer? (I'm thinking no...)

I need help. TIA

ezone

Your installer forgot to tighten the rest of the bolts as well.

You better do that ASAP before the PCM is ruined.

robfarr56

You are saying that the wingnut would not have loosened if the other bolts were at their specified torque?

ezone

The belt would not loosen and screech if the mounting bolts were properly torqued (after getting the belt tension adjusted correctly).

The wingbolt is not supposed to support the entire alternator nor belt, it's only there to aid adjustment....and FWIW I'm in the rust and salt belt, it's often found completely seized up.

robfarr56

I am thinking the best way to get to these bolts (myself) is from below.

I think my brother still has the ramps from our high school days.

I have a beam torque wrench and metric sockets.

robfarr56

I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't my ECM that is throwing the battery light.
i.e. already messed up...

ezone

I can do both from above if needed but the bottom set are easier to do from below IMO.
If the belt is slipping bad enough the alternator can't charge then the warning light will come on
Correct the obvious problems first and see what happens.

robfarr56

Thanks for all your help and patience. Are you a former Honda tech?

robfarr56

From top to bottom: (?)

AC compressor

Alternator

Power Steering (?)



If that were the case, I would be feeling a loss of power steering, which I am not. Hmmm...

robfarr56

I copied this from the service manual.
Please tell me that I am not crazy, that they have the same typo on both methods of adjusting!

In step 4, when they say "Turn the adjusting bolt (E)...", they really mean "D" (the wingnut), don't they?

Are there a few landmines to sidestep in this manual?
Is it good to have a Haynes manual to compare with?

[IMG][/IMG]

robfarr56

And what is the secret to accessing these bolts? I tried for all I could, both from the top and the bottom. Even with REALLY small hands, I don't see how one fits a ratchet and socket in what little space there is.

ezone

Former? No.

I clean toilets at a dealership. Sometimes I fill them as well.

Nope.
PS pump is at the top and uses a dedicated belt. (You should be able to open the hood and figure this one out just by following the hoses to the power steering reservoir or steering rack)

Alternator in the middle. AC on the bottom. These two share one belt (the wider belt).

Yeah LOL Welcome to my world!
Sometimes you have to be able to figure out when the manual is wrong!


Your repair info appears to be mislabeled. The wording matches up with the previous images you and I both posted.

robfarr56

Oh, I was involved with BMW airheads for over 35 years. I know all about the pitfalls of technical manuals.

So, do you remove the wheel well to get to those fasteners?

ezone

The top alternator bolt (14mm head) you should be able to reach with a short socket and long ratchet, or maybe an offset box wrench....or you could remove the PS pump to make more room.




=============

Remove the tire, take the splash shield out of the way and you can easily reach the bottom half...If you can see the fasteners, you should be able to assemble the tools to reach them

robfarr56

Thank you. Those were the instructions I was looking for!

robfarr56

On Monday, my neighbor loaned me his beater DX 8th gen (his work car), and he took my car to his mechanic. I had wanted to be there to see the work done, but it didn't work out that way.

Good news is, I have put @ 150 miles on it (two days commute), and it is holding tight!

AND NO CHARGE! Of course, I did fill his tank before I put his car back in his driveway.
I need to buy him a new windshield! His is broken in so many places, I went to put my universal phone holder suction cup on it, and OMG! Changed that plan, quick! But he has so many other warning lights on, I'm not sure he is too worried about the windshield. No airbags, ABS.... But it got me to work and back, and my car works!!

The mechanic said that I needed a new battery. I am going to have it tested at my Honda dealer, where I had this one installed 5 years and 2 days ago. That is 60 months (I think), and my receipt says it still has 40% prorate left!

My voltmeter stays at just a hair over 14v most of the time. It will occasionally drop down to 12.5 or even lower. Of course, that is not measuring at the battery posts.
I just did that, and I got 12.75/.76
That is no load test, but I have been home for almost two hours, and it seems to be holding a charge. I may not get my new battery at 40% off...

Bottom line, find a 2nd mechanic; or learn to do it yourself.

robfarr56

And 8 days later, it comes loose again. On the way to work, of course.
I got here fine, but it will quit on me on the way home, tonight (33 miles with headlights).

This time I will have it towed to the Honda dealer I frequent. They might even have a loaner car!
But - I will have to drop the car off across the street, and then tomorrow morning call another tow truck to take it into the dealership, as they are all locked up after hours. And lots of Ubering (Lyft, actually, it is cheaper).

God I hate this car.

ezone

You should hate your mechanic instead. Bolts coming loose isn't the cars' fault. Your mechanic is broken!

IDK what you are doing wrong, but of course I'm not there to see what you did. I can only imagine you aren't getting the bolts tight enough to be secure.



This sounds weird. Is the parking lot fenced and gated at night? Armed guards in towers? Razor wire?

What do tow trucks do with other peoples cars after hours?

Can't you just call them and say "hey, my car is across the street can you check it out for me?"

robfarr56

My boss said the U.S. mfgr. dealers are desperate to unload their small cars. I may just bite the bullet and get a Chevy or Ford something or other.

I enjoyed Hondas while it lasted.

No, I don't work on my own cars, anymore. If I had tightened those fasteners, and they came loose, that would make me suicidal.

But I pop the hood, and try to see the alternator belt, and all I see is brick walls.

GusBuz

Yes I agree with Ezone. they should have a early/late drop off service, you leave your keys in a box inside an envelope and they check it in the morning... Well at least in all the dealerships I have gone too they have a system like this.

robfarr56

That is the "Luck of the Rob"...

robfarr56

Well, I thought I would go outside and check the wingnut.
It was very loose, again.
I tightened it as best I could with no tools, but it is still not charging the battery (and screaming like a banshee).

At least I now have a magnetic LED emergency flasher for the trunk lid!

ezone

The wing (bolt) is not intended to support the load of the belt. If the alternator is moving it's because the other two mounting bolts aren't tight.


Also....Are you in Indy? I don't remember any Honda dealers there having fenced lots. (last time I was there was 2014)

robfarr56

Yeah, you told me about the wing nut not supporting the load.
Is it supposed to come loose and dangle, though?

Yes, Indy. Ed Martin (on the East side) is the dealer I prefer.

robfarr56

Left work after dark. The belt was squealing a little bit, but the meter was showing about 11.5 volts. I was just hoping to make it the mile or so to the interstate.
I did, and after about 3 miles, the voltmeter began creeping upward! Soon the noise stopped and I had almost 14v.

It stayed that way for the rest of the trip, so I just headed on down to the dealer.
When I got there, sure enough, the first two entrances were closed, but when I got to the main entrance, one of the gates was open!!!
There was a guy in there who turned out to be a security guard. THANK GOD!
So I was able to park my car in front of the check-in door, and yes, they have envelopes and a slot.

The guard told me an interesting story. Not too long ago a dealership just up the road had a plate glass window broken out. The thieves grabbed keys to about 5 trucks, and were never seen again...

My Lyft ride was in an Accord!

robfarr56

They gave me a loaner car! A 2017 Civic LX coupe! Only 500 miles on it.
(I think they want me to buy a new car...)

ezone

No. It should not back out by itself, but if it wasn't tight enough it might.
IF the belt tension was adjusted using the wingbolt first, then the rest of the alternator bolts were tightened, the pressure or tension placed on the wingbolt in the adjustment step should have been sufficient to keep it from backing out on its own. (at least I never had an issue doing it that way all these years)

Referring to the previously posted (correct) diagrams, bolts B, C, and D have to be tight to prevent the alternator from moving. If those are tight then the wingbolt could be completely removed and the belt will still remain tight, no slip....unless the belt wasn't adjusted tight enough to begin with.


Marketing 101 !!
That's one of the reasons many dealers have brand new cars as loaner/rentals.
What better way to get a potential buyer into a no pressure test drive?

Did you get any free donuts? LOL


What did the dealer say about your car today?

robfarr56

When the Honda service rep called, he said that my alternator (aftermarket, reman) was not generating enough energy (not sure if he was talking volts or amps).
I am seeing 14v +/-, so he must be talking amperes.

His suggestion is to take it back to the guy that sold it to me for another warranty call.
I really don't think I want "mechanic" #1 touching my car, again!

He said that a reman OEM, installed would be the best part of $700. I am tempted to go that route. (I doubt I could find a better car for $700!)

Mechanic #1 made three GROSS errors the first time I had him work on the alternator.
1) He ***umed that it was the '06 that I had had in his shop for new struts and shocks about 6 weeks earlier, and ordered an alternator for that model.
2) He gets the correct alternator, installs it, and then finds out (remembers) that Hondas have the voltage regulator built into the alternator. So, off to the alternator/starter shop for modification.
3) Can't tighten (or replace) fasteners to save his (or my?) life.

Honda did replace one of the fasteners. The service rep wasn't sure which of the two fasteners needed replacing. I'll return tomorrow to pick up my car and hopefully all of these details.

They did perform a load test on the battery (that mechanic #2 told me to replace...), but I don't yet have the results from that.
They also did through diagnostics of the entire electrical system. Nothing outstanding popped up, except for the low output of the alternator.


Looking at the invoice from the initial install:

Electronic Load Detector 38255-S5A-003 - $39.29
Alternator-All New Parts-Reman
Mitsubishi-Limited Lifetime Warranty SAE #13893 - $169.53

Labor - $136 (cheaper than a Honda Tech - or IS it?)

Notes: R&R alternator assy
R&R Bad/blown ELD
Checking charging system good
Battery light staying on, suspect possible bad Engine Computer


This is the first money I have put in the car since Oct. 2014, when I had a "105,000 mile service" done, just before I handed it over to the ex-wife. ALL of my invoices are from Ed Martin Honda before that time. Timing belt, tires (yes, really), battery. Heck, when the cat cover rusted apart, they said they could just rig it (metal zip ties?), but I said no, give me a new OEM. (I was making WAY too much money, apparently...).

I also paid (apparently) way too much for the car, back in 2010: https://www.civicforums.com/forums/1...ml#post4536398

And yes, the ex did regular oil changes, and even had the driver's side seat belt receptor replaced under warranty.


It seems I am burdened with a "buy high, sell low" personality. It has always been that way, and I doubt it will change anytime soon. One of the reasons I was thinking of driving this one into the ground. Would love some real cup holders and storage space, though. Hmmm, transplant a 8th gen center console into this 7th? Yeah, right.

robfarr56

sorry for all the updates...

ezone

You were NOT seeing that much while it wasn't working correctly, right? Working part time is still broken.
Was this 2002 car in front of him/in the shop, at the time it was ordered? WOW.


Whaaaaat?? A correct alternator needs no modification.


ELD was a common problem but during failure it only kept the ECM from switching to reduced charge rate for economy mode. It creates a fault code but it didn't turn on the CEL.

Hell no it's not cheaper. Consider all the trouble you've gone through PLUS now you are paying someone else AGAIN to fix his mistakes. Plus diag/checkout fee.
(A lot of assumption there on my part LOL)

This is where I tell you to simply unplug the 4 wire plug from the alternator (with engine running) to see if the warning light goes out. If it goes out, the alternator is junk (bad or incorrect voltage regulator).

New does not mean good.
NEW stands for Never Ever Worked