ezone

Wow this thread went a mile since I last looked at it.

I'm not an actual mechanic but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

It's usually kinda tough to do that over the internet, and it can be real tedious to explain the 5W's/1H to others that don't do this all the time, don't have the means to do it, and are only looking for a silver bullet.

Scout1, this was not directed at you.




Pressurizing the cylinders would prove or disprove leakage into the cooling system.
If the water passage gasket were the problem, the above test would reveal nil.

Wankenstein

Why guess? Spend $10 for block tester fluid and rent (free at autozone or o'reilly's) a block tester. That's a cheap place to start. If, you want to take it a step further bring it into a shop and have them do a leakdown test. Do a compression test too if you want.

Breeched HG's doesn't always equal compression loss, as Mikey stated.. didn't in mine. Mine had a stripped block hole where one of the head bolts inserts into and it didn't have compression loss. Compression loss usually occurs if there a HG breech between one or more cylinders.

thisguy357

i agree compression test, then leakdown(probably more expensive than the gasket lol)but the block test would be inconclusive since the egr uses exhaust fumes :/
but if the compression was good i would try the water passage gasket. $8 http://www.autozone.com/cooling-heat...&checkfit=true

Wankenstein

More than likely the compression will be good and is not a definitive test for a head gasket breech. However, it's cheap and easy to do so might as well. If there is a compression leak then it still needs to be isolated to either: valve seals, piston rings, head gasket.

Bring to local shop and see what they'll charge or make and perform a homemade leakdown tester:

thisguy357

lol $8 and 20-30 minutes work time

or pull the head to check valve seals, head gasket, and look for scoring on the cylinder walls or broken rings. then put it back together with $120+ H/G set (that includes the aforementioned $8 gasket)

im not trying to sound condescending, i promise

Wankenstein

Not my ride but, instead of diagnosing by pulling the head as you suggest.. I would spend the $10 and do a block test before putting myself through that or at least talk to a shop about a leakdown test quote.

thisguy357

again a failed water passage gasket would give you a false positive during a block test.

the width of the gasket between the egr port and water port is roughly a 1/4 in. but it is a compression gasket making the high point of the gasket only 1/16th of an in wide. (very possible leak) if it failed it would cause the bubbling radiator but would not effect your compression

thisguy357

pulling the head was a joke... the last effort

ezone

Pressurize cooling system @ 15 PSI
Remove EGR valve and look for water entry in the passage?

IDK if it's possible or not, just thinking out loud.

Wankenstein

Lol.. I thought you were being Honda Tech serious about that.
I guess the OP wouldn't be out much time and expense wise if, he follows your WP gasket suggestion. If, it fixes the issue he should buy you a or two.
If, it doesn't solve the issue he can give you two .

Speaking of that my son and I watched the movie Creed last week and I give it

Wankenstein

If everyone bought Ezone a or two for solving their car's issues he'd be in liver failure or AA by now.

thisguy357

honestly that hadn’t crossed my mind, but u can see down in there with a flashlight

Scout1

The first time I had this issue, I did every test you guys have mentioned. Compression, Leak down, chemical test and all tested good. When I used the method Ezone said to do by pressurizing each cylinder at top dead center, The second cylinder was the one leaking. I have to work today so I don't know when I can get back to it, but I will try that test again. I will try that "water passage" gasket first and pray that is it.

Sorry I stirred up so much arguments but the comments are helpful. I will report back when I find something.

mikey1

this time use an OEM head gasket,

trying to save a bit of money on that gasket caused you to have to redo the entire job, so you are not really saving anything in the long run,

Scout1

Considering how many people and posts I have seen about this same issue are you sure the OEM gasket is that much better? I always thought FEL-PRO was a pretty good brand but I am not a mechanic by trade so I will go by what you guys say.

Ed

ezone

I've never used Fel-pro on this application.
I have not had to do a head gasket twice, either.

PMI

Any idea why so many engines need a headgasket?

The last car (diff make) I had that had headgasket issues, first overheated which was caused by sludge and poor oil circulation. This in turn was the result of a sub-par crankcase venting component, a $5 one-way valve. End result was first a bad turbo, and later, bad headgasket.

So, more than likely, there will be an underlying cause.

ezone

I've posted on other threads that I firmly believe this engine could have been far more robust if the engineers had specified use of TTY head bolts.
I still think a company could make a tiny fortune if they would make or market TTY head bolts for this application, and all others that spec MLS gaskets with regular bolts.



IMO most of Hondas issues pale in comparison to some other manufacturers' spectacular problems.


95-00 Neon head gaskets, anyone?


Engines that sludge internally as a rule? (most sludge issues could have been avoided with careful choice of oil specifications)

Valve springs breaking?

Cams and lifters eaten alive?

Over 100 years of trying and they STILL haven't figured out how to make a ball joint last?

PMI

LOL, if you figure out any of those things, we will all be standing there in line..., waiting to buy your stock, before it goes public...

TTY == "stretch" bolts? There are none that fit this engine? The head bolts should not be too difficult, but at this point our cars are pretty old, not sure how big a market there would be.

ezone

I was speaking of Big 3 suspensions......30-50k front end rebuilds are just unreal.






TTY = stretch

AFAIK nobody makes TTY for these engines, but the right size may be out there in someone else's peoducts.

PMI

I always felt stretch bolts were iffy for "recreational" mechanics like me, because the torque has to be more accurate, and because it is can vary depending on the cleanliness, and amount of lubrication, of the threads in the block... (but thats just me )

thisguy357

First I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to save people time and monies

Second I have never had a felpro gasket fail..it s the only gasket I put on my personal cars

**black plastic LIM gasket is a GM andfactory part that fails alot but felpro makes upgraded gaskets. notice the felpro aluminum gasket set with thick rubber seals(notice the supercharger)

This car blew coolant everywhere because the LIM gasket failed at the water jacket and the boost SPRAYED coolant everywhere no coolant in the oil though lol!

ezone

To the contrary, TTY is far more forgiving IMO.
TTY is all about maintaining a stable clamping force that will remain consistent as the clamped items grow and shrink with thermal cycling. You don't have that with regular bolts.

(picking imaginary specs out of thin air for this) 18 ft-lb is easy to reach as a starting point for all of the fasteners, it serves as a sort of zero point to firmly clamp the items without inducing significant stretch on the fasteners.
Tightening the bolts an additional half turn total each (or whatever degrees necessary to get the bolt to stretch in its linear elastic range) has little to do with rotational force (torque). The thread pitch and angle of rotation dictates the amount of stretch induced in the fastener, and it's controlled by the material hardness and size of the fastener.

PMI

Thanks, I definitely did not know all that!

thisguy357

also tty bolts are able to provide more clamping force than a regular bolt the same length and diameter.

ezone

Felpro blue color is their trademark.

About 5 or 6 years ago I received an unopened brand new Fel-pro box and installed a set of red gaskets very similar to this pic in in a 95 or 96 3.1 GM that belonged to my GFs son.
I thought the red color was a bit unusual at the time but installed them anyway.

It lasted all of 2 years before caving an intake port and putting manifold vacuum on the crankcase, causing a really strange whistle or squeal noise.

The next Felpro set was the familiar blue color and lasted until the car was totaled in a crash.

thisguy357

the red gasket is a factory gm gasket

its from the L67 3.8 l supercharged V-6

felpro update gaskets are generally aluminum. plastics are cheap OEM replacements.
its like getting an original OEM GM lower intake manifold gasket, they fail...thats why there is an update part

kinda like GM swaybar endlinks use to have plastic spacers and would break going over a big bump...just cuz something is OEM doesnt make it right

ezone

You think I received original GM gaskets in a Felpro box?
For a 3.1 engine, early design, the ones that DID last at least 80k before they failed? (unlike the later ones that failed so quick under warranty GM had a national backorder on them in the late 90s).


I'll stick with OEM for the Hondas I service.

thisguy357

nah it might have been felpro, what im saying is u probably got the OEM style (plastic ones that fail) not the updated gasket (aluminium)

to each his own

ezone

I've not seen aluminum Felpro gaskets for the mid-90s 3.1 (M engine), and the most recent one I have done was in the summer of last year.