TechMonkey

Before getting into my specific situation, is there a sticky or guide that is a higher-level overview of keys and locks on the 7th gens? I'm hoping someone like ezone can help me out. What (I think) I've pieced together so far: (2003 Civic LX, automatic trans, unfortunately. :P )

I understand the ignition keys are electronically tied to the computer somehow, if any one part of the authentication system is changed, they all have to be reprogrammed at a dealer.

New, blank keys are available relatively cheap off amazon or whatnot, have to be cut to match current tumblers, progged at dealer.

There are a set, limited number of physical key configurations, registered with Honda so they can look up VIN and know how to set tumblers if needed.

New tumbler assemblies (for doors and ignition) are available, have to be set (keyed?) to match current.

Some dealers may not be particularly good at dealing with the locks.

There's something called a "master" key and a "valet" key, but the valet key starts the ignition so...I'm not sure what the point is? Similarly, you can have keys (that physically match everything) but with no chip, that work on just the doors/trunk. (Though I'm not quite sure why you'd want that.)

Did I get all that right?
===
Now to my particular problem (I can start a different thread if necessary.)

Car is used and probably abused, only came with one key. (Ignition of course.) It has never actually inserted completely into either of the locks, driver side doesn't lock, fortunately in this case. (something busted in door that I *should* be able to look at/fix later.) Key is worn, and is now starting to stick in ignition and be difficult to insert/remove/turn.

1 - Can I assume that the locks perhaps don't match key at all and need to be "retumbled" (reset) to match the ignition column setting?

2 - Likelyhood that a new key re-cut and set to the current ignition configuration would work, or that tumblers in ignition are worn and need to replaced?

3 - Getting multiple, new ignition keys programmed and working is the priority, if I get new door (and trunk and back seat) locks and install them myself, can I re-set them to match the ignition keys or do I just have to go with two keys?

4 - SRS light is on, so I should have them pull code while it's in the dealer, since my regular OBDCII reader won't help, correct?

Thanks for any help - I can't help you much with car stuff, but I can fix your computer!

ezone

Oh man, I haven't even had any coffee yet....

It's called the immobilizer system.
There is a transponder (RFID) chip embedded in the head of the key, a control unit with round ring antenna wrapped around the ignition lock, and the PCM.


Check out this info bulletin: http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/tsb/civic/x01-053e.pdf
Non OEM keys aren't always 100% reliable. Many look exactly the same but could have a different incompatible RFID chip. (Probably a bigger problem when buying from ebay though.)
The original set is registered to the cars VIN in Hondas database, that way one can have new keys "cut by code" at any dealer without having to copy a worn out key. Replacement sets are supposed to be reported and the new key code registered in the database.
You don't HAVE to. You can have multiple keys, it's just inconvenient.
Valet key should not open the trunk or glovebox locks.

Ever lock your keys inside a car? You'd figure out quick what the headless key is for.


Sounds like the door locks are either stuck from non-use or the tumblers are worn out.
CLUE: Did the car come with a remote fob? People that use the keyless fob all the time have the locks stick from never getting used. Shoot some penetrating lube into the cylinders and let it soak for a while.

If someone used a key to get in the door every time then the door lock is likely worn.

They probably match, but only the previous owner knows for sure. See above.

You don't have to buy new keyed cylinders and have them retumbled to match your key.
The dealers are supposed to have blank door lock cylinders that can be "built" into a complete unit using your old parts...IF new a cylinder is needed.

See this bulletin: https://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/files/tsb/a03-068.pdf

Chance: Slim on the ignition. Possible but not real likely. Once the tumblers are worn and jam up, it's usually toast IMO, but you can try a new key and see.



Honda sells complete lock sets if you really want to go that route. Still would need programming.

I'd just fix the problem locks though. Nobody (here) ever uses the lock for the back seat or the trunk release so they are most likely fine.

As you probably read in the other thread, call your dealer and ask about various scenarios: You can pull your lock cylinders out and carry them to the dealer to be retumbled, that saves a pile of labor on them doing the remove and reinstalls part.

You may want to leave your ignition lock loosely attached to the steering column (hanging by the wires?) so you can drive it to the dealer and DIY pull it out in the parking lot since all new keys must be programmed and your worn out key may not work in the freshly tumbled ignition lock. At least you can save yourself a tow truck fee this way.
You can pull codes yourself. There is a way to retrieve codes using the idiot light and counting blinks.
I think there's a sticky somewhere around here that tells you how, using a jumper wire in the SCS terminal of the DLC to read, and a different connector and rain dance to erase. And FYI the dealers are not obligated to replace buckles for the SRS light, although some do.

Why does firefox hog so much damn memory over a long period of time? I run 2 laptops and both get slower as FF takes up more and more memory to run.

TechMonkey

>Oh man, I haven't even had any coffee yet....

I hear ya, already administered medication to the wife, breakfast for the child, and my coffee is still waiting on the table...

>Check out this info bulletin:http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/tsb/civic/x01-053e.pdf

That was *EXACTLY* what I was looking for, thank you!

>Non OEM keys aren't always 100% reliable. Many look exactly the same but could have a different incompatible RFID chip. (Probably a bigger problem when buying from ebay though.)

Alright, I'll probably bite the bullet and pay the stealership for their keys.

>Valet key should not open the trunk or glovebox locks.

Ah, so those keys are just set slightly differently, like any master/sub set.(?)

>Ever lock your keys inside a car? You'd figure out quick what the headless key is for.

Yea, it's called a backup key. I guess the reason for the headless is to reduce cost?

>Sounds like the door locks are either stuck from non-use or the tumblers are worn out.
>CLUE: Did the car come with a remote fob? People that use the keyless fob all the time have the locks stick from never getting used. Shoot some penetrating lube into the cylinders and let it soak for a while.

Right on the nose - previous owner used the fob exclusively, (and removed the remote mechanism it before foisting the car off on me). Would old standbys like WD-40 or Tri-Flow count as "penetrating lube" our would you recommend something a bit more specialized?

>You don't have to buy new keyed cylinders and have them retumbled to match your key.
>The dealers are supposed to have blank door lock cylinders that can be "built" into a complete unit using your old parts...IF new a cylinder is needed.

I guess I'm not understanding the difference...

>See this bulletin: https://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/files/tsb/a03-068.pdf


Well, that will help when I rip into the doors at least!

>Chance: Slim on the ignition. Possible but not real likely. Once the tumblers are worn and jam up, it's usually toast IMO, but you can try a new key and see.


>I'd just fix the problem locks though. Nobody (here) ever uses the lock for the back seat or the trunk release so they are most likely fine.

Agreed. I'm understanding that either new keys (and whatever rebuild/replace is needed for the ignition) will match all the existing locks, which maybe can be "cleaned up" to work, or just replace those two locks, and then I'll have keys for ignition/seat/trunk, and keys for the doors.


>You may want to leave your ignition lock loosely attached to the steering column (hanging by the wires?) so you can drive it to the dealer and DIY pull it out in the parking lot since all new keys must be programmed and your worn out key may not work in the freshly tumbled ignition lock. At least you can save yourself a tow truck fee this way.

I saw that part in another thread, yes. I'll probably attempt it.


>You can pull codes yourself. There is a way to retrieve codes using the idiot light and counting blinks. I think there's a sticky somewhere around here that tells you how, using a jumper wire in the SCS terminal of the DLC to read, and a different connector and rain dance to erase.

Oh, the "you've got an error light" sticky made it sound like SRS codes can't be read. I'll do some more searching. Care to define SCS and DLC?

>And FYI the dealers are not obligated to replace buckles for the SRS light, although some do.

Good to know, and that is hinting to me that it might just be a buckle and not, say, an airbag?

Thanks for your time!

>Why does firefox hog so much damn memory over a long period of time? I run 2 laptops and both get slower as FF takes up more and more memory to run.

Short answer is "memory leak", AKA "people make mistakes, and computers just let you make a mistake a whole bunch of times really fast". Make sure you're updated to the latest version of both firefox and any plugins you use, and disable/uninstall any plugins/addons you don't need.

ezone

If you are having them do other lock related work it's probably best. It's REALLY EASY to screw up when cutting a key and you may be better off letting the dealer screw up their own expensive key blanks.
The main person that cuts our keys gets about 90% good cuts.
OTOH the new parts person is only batting maybe .225.


Yeah, something like that.
We sell them as wallet keys.
Headlless because there is no immobilizer chip in it and they can't start the car.
I think they were actually supposed to be test or practice keys for learning how to cut them on the machine.
Is the car equipped with keyless from Honda? You can buy new fobs if it was. Honda sold keyless kit as an accessory.
You can buy new door lock cylinder(s) through the parts catalog, they will come with their own keys and would have to be rekeyed to match your existing key if you wanted to do that.

OR you can get the empty uncoded cylinders (no tumblers) for the door locks, they came in the tumbler kit mentioned in the bulletin. I don't think these are in the normal parts catalog, I think the only way to get more is by ordering from the part numbers in the bulletin.

Ideally, one key fits all the locks on the car. Multiple keys is a hassle IMO...... (Even though I grew up way back when most cars had 2 different keys.)

DLC is the data link connector. The OBD2 connector.
SCS is Hondas name for one of the "diagnostic enable" lines on many of the control units. Service Check something or other.
In your car the SCS line is in the OBD2 connector.

Once you get into the SRS codes, there is also a MES connector (Memory EraSe.) That's where the rain dance comes in. It is not in the DLC, it's usually stuck into a hole in the dash fusebox.

Buckle switches seem to be the most common cause of the SRS light coming on, but certainly not the only possible cause. Gotta get the codes to find out for sure.

Ya, I've read about it. I'm current on FF (v30.0), and this has been going on for a damn long time. Gotta restart every so often then it's ok for a while again. Will start out using like 400.000k then after a few hours it's over a million k or more and sloooow. Right now it's at about 1,300,000k and slowing down, and I restarted this unit about 3 hours ago. Not sure about whether or not the addons are current or not, and I really dislike FF without all my addons so I put up with it.


Maybe I'll try "restart FF with addons disabled" when I know I'll be on it for a while and see if that helps..

TechMonkey

>Is the car equipped with keyless from Honda? You can buy new fobs if it was. Honda sold keyless kit as an accessory.

As I said, it did have the keyless, was removed before I purchased it.

>You can buy new door lock cylinder(s) through the parts catalog, they will come with their own keys and would have to be rekeyed to match your existing key if you wanted to do that.

Right, I got that figured out.

>OR you can get the empty uncoded cylinders (no tumblers) for the door locks, they came in the tumbler kit mentioned in the bulletin.

You just broke my brain. I could...get a new cylinder in a tumbler kit...with no tumblers?!? It's probably the tumblers that are (half of the) problem, and without new ones it won't work. I think there's some terminology/nomenclature I'm not understanding.



>Buckle switches seem to be the most common cause of the SRS light coming on, but certainly not the only possible cause. Gotta get the codes to find out for sure.

Right, but it's nice that it might be something simpler/cheaper.

Dealer is open tomorrow, so I guess I know what I'm doing with my Saturday.


>Maybe I'll try "restart FF with addons disabled" when I know I'll be on it for a while and see if that helps..

Let me know how it goes, the memory ballooning is why I originally tried and switched to Chrome(ium), but it's something I've had to live with with all three of the main browsers for so long, I've had to learn to quit and re-launch whatever I'm using every few days. (System restarts usually aren't necessary for this.) "Thanks" for bringing it up, I've just spend an hour catching up on the state of memory usage in modern browsers. http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewto...?f=7&t=2637161 mentions some interesting options for extensions that might help manage things.

Now stop checking message boards and go enjoy the 4th! (Thanks again!)

ezone

So someone had an aftermarket keyless/alarm/start/whatever, I'm guessing??
Most ordinary sellers won't remove a real Honda keyless.




The DEALER would have the kit. The problem may be that not all dealers have the kit, nor have anyone that knows/remembers anything about it. I know that anyone new in my store doesn't automatically know about it.

The "kit" is something that dealers and locksmiths would get, it isn't for ordinary citizens. The kit has about 1000 tumblers (about 100 of each size tumbler (tumbler = wafer) for sidewinder locks only, plus a pile of the tiny springs and a few bare door cylinders, a couple trunk cylinders, some E-clips, etc..

The lock shops in my town don't have the kit, nor can they do key programming on Hondas. The dealer is the only place to get this done here.


Googled for pics:








I think these two pics show some OE and non-OE tumblers. The OE parts have the numbers stamped into the tab.





The kit is about $300.

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.

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Here's where the tumblers wear, see the red lines I kinda drew in the pic below... The wafers wear off there, and the key then pushes the wafer sideways instead of up and down in its' slot....or the key can ride past the wafer without pushing it up or down at all.





The router-cut edges of the key pattern eventually wear into a similar beveled angle instead of being a nice, sharp 90 degree edge. At this point the key needs replaced.


.

,

,
Wen a key is new, the pattern cut stands out as a sharp 90 degree cut. As the key wears, those sharp cuts get rounded and worn down, no longer sharp angles.
(Did I just repeat myself? Dang copy n paste.)

Fairly new looking key:


Didn't find a good pic of a worn out sidewinder key.




Some of the buckles are not cheap. If it has an airbag style inflator charge attached to it, it's not cheap.
If it's a plain buckle, that's cheap.

If the seat belt can no longer be securely latched into the buckle, that's covered under the lifetime intergalactic seatbelt warranty. But if the issue is an SRS light, that's technically not covered....but some dealers may still cover it as a goodwill gesture.

Mine is too. Not my Saturday to work though.

I'll have to give that a read in a few.


Man, it's what I do!
Hell, I've already been at the GFs house for coffee and lunch and did a little work for her elderly mother, replaced a faucet set in my basement, and I gotta go take my mom a card for her birthday today. Yeah, all the fireworks nationwide are just for her!

ezone

Found this in one of the FF help links.

How silly of me to think I shouldn't have to restart the application every so often!








Restarting Firefox

Firefox's memory usage may increase if it's left open for long periods of time. A workaround for this is to periodically restart Firefox. You can configure Firefox to save your tabs and windows so that when you start it again, you can start where you left off. See Restore previous session - Configure when Firefox shows your most recent tabs and windows for details.

TechMonkey

Well, I'm pleased to report you were wrong. Two new keys, works in ignition and trunk locks. I went with your advice and just ponied up for the dealer's blanks, especially due to time. Apparently, that style/era of key the parts department can program. Alas, they were out of blanks. They did, of course, have some newer-style, more expensive ones, that the service department has to program...

The guy took some pity on me, or at least made me feel better about it by giving me a "reduced rate" for labor, so I got out of there with two keys, SRS code pulled (buckle) and a promise that the part and install were free, for $165... Not great, not horrible. (But if I had worked on this earlier probably could have grabbed 5 blanks for $25 off ebay so even if 2 or 3 failed on the cut, could have done it for $100...)

Now to tear open a door and take a crack at the door locks...

(I guess now I should edit all the relevant info into one (ahem) master key post to turn into a sticky...)

ezone

They must mean the "T5" key blanks and a working code cloning machine?

But they are out of those particular blanks...... So is our parts department. We haven't had any of those since..... um, a few years now.
It's been so long I forgot all about those LOL.