Rep Power: 186

Blown HG.

Just got back from a drive over one of the longer highways on this island. Decided to check the oil level and low and behold there's coolant fluid splashed inside the engine bay. I take the reserve tank cap off and fluid is filled to the top, with air bubbles popping up every few seconds. I've been dreading the day this would happen and here it is. Good thing is there was no over heating at all.

 
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ezone,

Any issues with using a Fel-pro HG?

 
Rep Power: 518

No real clue, but I trust FEL-PRO products more than almost any other gasket maker---- except factory--- in most cases-- but not all---...(other car brands like Mopar and GM)


I'm a dealer tech, I use Honda dealer parts with no issues.
I also wouldn't hesitate to use Felpro.

 
Rep Power: 186

Ok, thanks for the input. I think I'm just going to wait until Monday to pick up OEM parts from the dealership.

I was only thinking of changing the HG itself. Do you reuse the intake and exhaust manifold gaskets or replace them?

I just changed the valve cover gasket, valve cover bolt grommets, spark plug tube seals, cam/crank seals, timing belt last year, so I was not planning on changing them.

Any other recommendations from you, feel free to input as always.

Ugggh. I feel so dejected right now with as well as I thought I took care of this car. Anyways......

 
Rep Power: 518

You can't do anything to prevent it. They go when they go. Replace it and get on with life.

I replace any that I take apart. I can't afford problems because I skimped on something.
But if the VC gasket is recent, I'd reuse it....MAYBE the exhaust gaskets...
I'd think a Felpro set would have everything you need in it, may as well use all of it that you need.


If *I* knew for a fact that it didn't get hot and there is nearly zero chance of having a head warped, I might attempt to lift the head up only a half inch and do a gasket slide. The only thing stuck to either surface will be black paint from the steel gasket, so scraping can be skipped......
But....
Since I can never know for a fact that a cylinder head is perfect without measuring, I always take the head all the way off of the block. Customers lie.

Drain the coolant from the block before lifting the head if you can. Otherwise it will get into the crankcase.
Timing belt and water pump while apart? Great time for it. That will drain the block too. Thermostat?(OE only)

Get all the oil out of the water jacket. It DOES get in there when you pull the head.

Clean out the EGR passages in the cast injector manifold if you separate the intake from the head.

If you MUST scrape gaskets, use razor blades. Never use Scotch-Brite (or "whizz wheel") pads. That stuff trashes bearings.

Oil change, maybe even 2 if there is any possibility that coolant got in the crankcase. Even trace amounts of coolant can trash bearings.

That's all I thought of at the moment...

 
Rep Power: 186

As always, thanks ezone for the information and advice.

I know for a fact that it didn't get hot. Either that or my temperature sending unit information is faulty and happened to break at the same time the HG went.

When I pulled in to my parking stall the needle was a little below half like it always is.

I'll let you know how it goes in a few days when I'm either ecstatic with joy or I'm crying because I fcked something up. I'm pretty **** and competent, but you never know.

Either way thanks again for the information and advice.

 
Rep Power: 313

It's not that bad of a job. Also a good opportunity to do all your maintenance.

 
Rep Power: 186

I hear that, but I did all the major maintenance less than a year ago. That's why I'm not really happy about this.

At this point, I'm going to replace the intake, exhaust, HG, valve cover and water pump gasket. It's look to be much easier to drain the block coolant through the water pump than that bolt I couldn't get/break loose last time I did the timing belt and water pump service.

And yes, I agree, that it is not that bad of a job, but still a mild pain for me since I'll be OCD on every single re-assembly with torque pattern and specs.

Oh well, like ezone said, "replace it and move on with life" and that's exactly what I'm going to do.

 
Rep Power: 518

I said to drain it "if you can".....I drain the radiator, but I don't drain the block if the water pump isn't coming out, I just yank the head off and deal with changing oil later on to get it out.
I'll tilt the engine toward the drainplug, then pull the plug back and let any water out. (Water sits under the oil and it isn't mixed up yet, the engine has not run yet.) Just the water, I don't actually drain the oil yet...... Then put the plug back in and run it through warmup and burping the cooling system. THEN change oil and filter. Then drive it a couple miles and do it again if I wasn't comfortable with just one oil change. (The engine traps between half and one quart of oil at all times no matter how much you drain out.)

Changing oil once is a customary part of the head gasket job.
Changing it the second time is cheap insurance, in my book.

This is cheap compared to a set of bearings and an overhaul, right?

 
Rep Power: 518

How many miles are on it?

Someone should do a survey. I've seen them go before 50,000 miles, and some seem to last forever.

 
Rep Power: 186

I see what you're saying about draining the radiator and not the block if you're not changing the water pump (which I'm not), but I'm little confused when you say "tilt the engine toward the drain plug, then pull the plug back". Are you referring to the radiator drain plug or the block drain plug. I know you said you didn't take the block plug out if you're not doing the water pump, but for reason I got confused looking at how it was written. I apologize for my confusion. I just need a little clarification on that.

And yes, I will without a doubt change the oil twice.

Car has a little over 85K on it.

 
Rep Power: 518

Oil plug.
With the drivers side motor mount apart, the engine tilts.
I don't yank the oil plug away, I just move it to the side to let the coolant out. Plug it back in when oil starts coming out.
I didn't quite say that.
I don't pull any coolant drain on the block at all.
IF I have to do the water pump, then the block is drained when that is pulled off.



Draining the radiator will only get the coolant level inside the engine down to the height of the bottom of the upper hose neck on the head. (About 3/4 inch above the head/block parting line.) You can't get the level any lower unless you open up something else on the engine block.

I am under time constraints, so I just yank the head at that point and let it spill.

Speed is time, and time is money.

 
Rep Power: 186

Thanks for the clarification. Me being **** like I am I'll probably pull the water pump to drain it just for peace of mind and then I'll still do two oil changes just to be safe. Coolant and oil...cheap, right?

 
Rep Power: 518

Cheaper than an engine, and cheaper than losing a customer over a crummy repair that costs them wasted time and lots more money than it should have.
They were already screaming about the price of a head gasket job in the first place......and mystified/pissed that a Honda could ever ***GASP*** break. Especially theirs.

 
Rep Power: 200

LOL same thing at the John Deere dealer when they came out with the "Lowe's and Home Depot" mowers. People were amazed that they broke, even more so that the $1400 John Deere was NO better than the $1400 Murray. Sometimes people amaze me. Assure you, if it's made by humans it WILL break.

To the OP, it isn't needed to pull the manifolds off the head unless you are planning on sending it to the machine shop. I pulled mine off complete and straight edged it to make sure it wasn't warped. With the manifolds still on.

 
Rep Power: 186

Yeah I was looking at that. I don't have problem taking the exhaust manifold off. I was wondering if I could take all the bolts off for the intake manifold and kind of push it back and away form the head. Is that possible and still be able to pull the head off?

I've already started, but stopped for the day since this is all being done in a parking stall in my complex under a Hawaiian sun. I got all the hoses off, the p/s pump and alternator out of the way/removed. I'm going first thing tomorrow morning for parts at the dealership.

Replace the head bolts/reuse the head bolts and number them so they go back in the same hole?

 
Rep Power: 518

Yes, but there are fasteners/brackets underneath that you must remove before you can push it back.
EDIT: Or just loosen them so the whole thing only pivots back and forth.


2 of the fasteners will secure the injector mounting plate (it contains the EGR passages too) to the plastic intake manifold. Leave those assembled and it will all push off together.
Those would be studs #24 here



Reuse head bolts. Does not matter where they go.
Get a manual, follow instructions.

 
Rep Power: 186

Thanks. It looks like if I just remove both #31 bolts I should be good. I did see the injector mounting plate bolts already and was going to leave them installed.

That #27 bolt looks like a little bit of a pain to get too.

I'm was looking at #18 too and was wondering If I'll be able to get a crow's foot on there to torque them down. It looks like there's some sensors and other stuff in the way to get a socket on it.

Lol, I figured that was coming. I have both the Chilton manual and the factory service manual printed out for this job. I'm following the factory service manual and yes it does not say which hole to put back in nor does it recommend getting new head bolts. The Chilton recommended replacement or labeling and putting back in the same hole. Something about stretching the bolt or the bolt is stretched. I'm just going to reuse the head bolts IAW the service manual.

 
Rep Power: 186

Really? That must have looked interesting. That seems like it would be kind of a pain and cumbersome. I can see detaching both the intake and exhaust at the head and just moving them both out of the way to lift the head.

 
Rep Power: 518

Chilton is covering all possible bases, they are assuming the engine COULD use TTY head bolts. It does not. They are normal bolts. Reuse.


On the manifold fasteners, I have a wide variety of tools. If I can SEE a fastener, I can usually build something to reach it.

The 2 in the center, undo them first. Break them loose with a wrench, spin them off with your fingers. I think I keep a magnet near while spinning them so they don't fall.

Flex-sockets are wonderful tools.

Some stuff you will never be able to use a torque wrench on. Use common sense on those. LOL


Read through this thread, maybe it will help? https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...303-p0304.html

 
Rep Power: 200

They are "stretched" that is why some specs specify new/old bolts. The tourqe to this and go so many degrees or "tourqe to yield" bolts are aimed at a more specific tourqe and actually stretch more. The best thing to do is to tourqe them, warm it up and tourqe them again to make sure they stay tight. BUT, that is next to impossible with this engine because to do that you would have to pull the timing belt and cam again. Used to be a diesel mechanic. It was common practice when you put a head on to dyno it for around an hour and retourqe the head when it cooled. ALSO though keep in mind that they often tourqed to 110 ft-lbs, then another 90-100*.... They were TIGHT

 
Rep Power: 200

It wasn't too heavy, cumbersome yes, but not too heavy. One thing in my favor though, I had it pretty far off the ground so I didn't have to bend down much for the engine bay (I am a tall guy, like 6 4), the other part of that was that it was no big deal at all to lay on a creeper and roll under it and take the brackets from ezone's picture all the way off. Once those are out of your way it has plenty of room to come off. The EGR port goes to the intake though. If you see that it needs cleaned out you should pull it anyway, mine wasn't bad. Pull the EGR valve and look down the port for some idea.

 
Rep Power: 518

These are not TTY.

Specs, C&P from the Honda site:
1st Step Torque:
20 N•m (2.0 kgf•m, 14 lbf•ft)
2nd Step Torque:
49 N•m (5.0 kgf•m, 36 lbf•ft)
3rd Step Torque:
67 N•m (6.8 kgf•m, 49 lbf•ft)
Use a beam-type torque wrench. When using a preset-type torque wrench, be sure to tighten slowly and do not overtighten. If a bolt makes any noise while you are torquing it, loosen the bolt and retighten it from the 1st step.

 
Rep Power: 200

I know, just extra info. TTY bolts yes replace them, cheap insurance if nothing else. Some do on the not tty too, but it is widely accepted that this is not neccessary.

 
Rep Power: 518

No wonder your body is giving out.
I wouldn't even THINK or trying this without extra hands. Or a cherry picker.


I have lower back problems as it is. I will take all sorts of extra steps to save myself.


Just looked at GFs' mothers car, 96 Ciera 3.1.......Looks like it needs intake gaskets. Only saw clumps of red mud in the radiator, no liquid.

Also a PW motor, and the left turn signal won't cancel (switch).
I said "She's 89 years old. The turn signal is supposed to be stuck on!"

 
Rep Power: 200

LOL!

Olds ciera? The intake isn't a big deal at all. Snap on has a 10 mm swivel socket on a 3/8" extension that makes it a cake walk to tourqe them back down and such. The bolts on the ends of the intake are angled and that makes it way easier to get at em. You can take most of it apart with an air ratchet easy. I was able to do intake jobs in about 3.5 hours when at the dealer. The engine was pretty much unchanged other than displacement for around 15 years. It isn't snap on, but they have them to unhook the valves without having to take the valve covers off. It slides over the rockers and compresses the lifters so you can pull the pushrods out, they go through the gasket so they have to come out. Without the tool you have to remove both covers and all the rockers. With the tool you only have to remove one side (so you can get the intake off, half of the manifold is under the valve covers on that thing.) May talk her into a water pump too. Have to drain the water and flush it anyway, and the pump is way up high and real easy to get too also. Just make sure you get the air out of it or vacu fill it if you have one at your dealership. Good possibility they are about as notorious as our Hondas for air. Only difference is they usually don't melt down because of air, the heater won't flow, and you hear the water rushing through the car every time you accelerate.

 
Rep Power: 518

I know. If I have done one, I've done a hundred of them. I totally expect it to be intake gaskets because of that.

I JUST seen this tonight in the dark with a penlight. Saw the coolant reservoir empty and oil was sitting in it.
I haven't been able to look any closer than the valley under the intake (wet). I hope it hasn't popped a head gasket, I have no clue how long it has been running this way.

I really need to get it to work to get a good look before I start getting parts for the engine. I hate being wrong.

I have seen rocker the tool, but I don't own one. I have always just pulled both VCs. I figured since I went to a Honda dealer, I wouldn't be doing enough intakes on these to get any ROI from the purchase.

If I do the job, I will do all the O rings, thermostat, and the oil pump drive O ring. Probably not the pump unless it is leaking. I saw no puddles on the garage floor, but I gotta get it to work to inspect it first.

I didn't always work at a Honda dealer, I do have other experience.

She's on a fixed income, so I'm probably doing this for food.

 
Rep Power: 200

As for roi I get it, but it was less than 15 bucks off the SO truck. What guy doesn't want another tool right? The other bolts can be done with normal tools. The roi on that I would get for sure. That one tool alone was almost 50 bucks. Trying to remember the "normal" parts for one. Gaskets, upper and lower intake, rtv (the valley end gaskets are junk, grey permatex works great), the o-ring on the pump drive cap and the o-rings for the water hoses. It wouldn't be a bad idea to replace the lower injector orings if there is any doubt (don't want to have to pull the upper manifold again because they leaked.)

 
Rep Power: 518

Didn't realize that. But this might only be the second GM intake job in about 6 years here for me. I really can live without it. LOL
Guilty. But I already have 25+ years of buying tools, and no more room in either of the sets of boxes. I quit the payment thing a long time ago. I am pretty much just maintaining my collection right now...Another DVOM is next, I have one that is about 15 years old that can no longer be repaired.....It was a really nice Actron built unit. Not cheap. The volt readings would randomly start to roam and wander, I couldn't trust it 100%.
Matco dude loaned me a fresh new unit that I'm kinda liking......

Something has to be pretty damn cool before I buy now.
I have never pulled a rail to get the 4 long bolts out. The Snappy 1/4 flex 10 gets the tough one loose. Got a spare if that tool breaks.

This one doesn't have any signs of shorted injector windings on any either. I guess I should measure that while apart.
RTV, check. I used Hondas gray Hondabond in the past here. Hondas gray is great stuff.....From fixing a leaking drain seal on my bathroom sink, to sticking tiles back on the bathroom wall.

We only see a Matco truck here, haven't seen Snappy in a year, haven't seen Mac in......6 years?
I just paid for a 3/8 14mm impact swivel to replace a MAC piece that fell apart an hour before he got there. (When does THAT ever happen!?!?) Fitty freekin dollas for that. Matco dude wouldn't warranty Mac, dangit.

 
Rep Power: 200

Really? We never see Matco and Mac has been years here too. See Cornwell every now and again. Snap On can't afford not to run. Their area of responsibility is pretty strict. Matco, Mac, and Cornwell go North toward St. Louis where they can goto a shop on every corner. The local Snap On guy can't even go that far north (around 60 miles). His AOR is mainly west from here. Plus he is a stellar guy still keep up with him and haven't even turned wrenches for over a year now.... Got you about the payment stuff. Same here. Only did it for half as long as you and got two boxes more or less filled too. The general public thinks that shops supply our tools, ya right. even if they only had 5 guys in their shop they would have at the least 50 to 100k in their techs tools. Plus people tend to take better care of things that they purchase.