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Hello everyone. Of course after buyer my 05 EX with 186,000 miles I read all about the head gasket problems.

Backstory: I bought the car this January. Before buying I noticed the heat was intermittent so I told the local used car dealer to have it fixed prior to purchase. Next day he said he fixed it so I bought it.

Few days later heat is intermittent again and coolant bottle is bubbling over. My regular shop does the funnel test and positive for head gasket. Car dealer pays for the head gasket done by a shop he goes to (they originally were the ones who claimed to have fixed the heat issue - all they did was add more coolant way above the max fill line).

The 1st head gasket repair in January- shop had the head machined, new gasket etc.

A month or so later oil is dripping down the back side of the motor and confirmed bad head gasket. Shop does second HG for free. The 2nd head gasket repair Feb/March they reused the old head gasket from January which sounds fishy. Plus added sealant b/c their machinist said to even though they called all the Honda dealerships and they said they don't use it.

Repair shop blames machinist b/c he didn't grind it fine enough, he just used a "coarse grind". Machinist did a "fine" grind this time.

Status of car now: I don't use it very much, one or two days a week. My test is to fill the overflow coolant bottle exactly to the Max Line after it's been sitting for a few days. Then do some driving. After a day or two it'll drop to 1inch below the Max Line and this is checking it after it's been sitting for days.

I've done this test three times (adding to the line and watching it drop down). I'm afraid its the HG again/bad head or something. Any thoughts?

Coolant bottle is new, cap is new, rad cap is new, radiator new. Car runs beautifully. Perfect maintenance records. TB at 105K, TB at 186K. I'm not inclined enough to do the timing belt, only easy stuff like plugs, filters and accessory belts.

 
Rep Power: 518

Use a sharpie, mark the reservoir right there. Drive a few more days, see if it drops lower or stays the same.

Remember, set the fluid level and do your checking all at the same engine temperatures.


That isn't checking or proving anything.

What YOU described above could be caused by something as simple as a plain ol' leak. (The typical head gasket failure doesn't act quite the same as what you described there.)



I'm not sure what you meant by the "funnel test" unless it is one of the same checks I use. That test, combined with applying shop air pressure to the cylinders (as I have described in this forum numerous times) would be a conclusive check for me.

Reusing the head gasket might be hack work IMHO. But I wasn't there to see what went on. I have done some stuff (successfully) that would make other people cringe.
BUT maybe it wasn't the head gasket leaking. Maybe it was something easier.

 
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Thanks. If I check the marker on Day 1 and then on Day 5 (letting it sit for those days in between) will the temperature variance from check to check matter if say I check on Day 1 with ambient temperature outside of 85F and Day 5 of ambient temp 90F? Every check the car engine has always been "cold" in that it hasn't been used for days.

I only meant that my "test" is conclusive proof that their is coolant missing absent the above temperature fluctuation in ambient temperature.



My mechanic did the funnel test you've described in this forum to pinpoint the HG back in January, lots of bubbles.
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I appreciate your help. I'll marker it up and keep driving it and go from there.

Side note: when I put in the new overflow coolant bottle I didn't have another spring clip at the bottom connection and the Honda one was crappy and weak so I just used a ziptie (the fit was really snug even w/o the ziptie)...maybe I've caused the leak. I'll check on that.

 
Rep Power: 518

Maybe I didn't understand earlier:
So, you don't even run the engine and coolant is disappearing? That should be found easily. It shouldn't disappear just sitting there.

OTOH, are you making absolutely sure the radiator is completely full? Burped of all air and everything? It depends on this for sucking fluid out of the reservoir.

Practically the same temps. Difference is practically nil. If the car has not run during those 5 days, the level should be exactly where you left it (IMO).

It takes a lot of heat to cause enough expansion in the cooling system liquid to build 15PSI against the radiator cap. Once it hits 15PSI, then it sends the excess fluid (when it vents the excess pressure) into the overflow bottle.
(The heat of the day alone probably isn't enough to cause this action.)

It only takes a few inches of vacuum in the cooling system to suck fluid back into the radiator out of the bottle though.


Same test now: Does it pass or fail?



Look for regular leaks: Have you looked at the water pump weep hole yet? Green crustys built up or anything? Hose ends? Heater water valve?

 
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Actually I haven't checked that aspect. I just meant if I used it on Day 1, check the coolant level, then let it sit for Days 2,3,4, and check again on Day 5.

I did check, I'll double check.


That's what I was thinking as well.




My mech of course charges for this, I'll by that funnel kit. I remember you linked to it in some post could I trouble you for it again? Found it. http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-24610-Sp.../dp/B001A4EAV0




Good thinking, that just triggered an image I had of the large coolant hose going to thermostat - thermostat in that area is green and crusty. What type of solution should I use to clean it up? Haven't looked at water pump weep hole yet.

Thanks again I really appreciated it.

 
Rep Power: 518

Yeah, that's it. Handy SOB if you DIY much.

Don't ignore actually fixing the leak/seep, that would be the source of the crustys. (i.e. The thermostat has a rubber seal around it.)

Knock the chunks of crust off.
Water and a brush might dissolve the loose stuff I guess, but I don't always worry about it.

Depends on where it is though.

If there is serious buildup that has been trapped between (example) a hose and its nipple, it may take sandpaper or something drastic like that. The radiator hose needs to seal to clean metal, not antifreeze crustys....



Another thought: Crusty buildup normally accumulates when there is a really slow leak. A tiny amount of buildup is left every time a few drops dries up.
Slowly, like a stalactite forming on the ceiling of a cave.
A more rapid leak may not have any crusty buildup at all.



HTH

 
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Dang. I checked the coolant crusty build-up and it was squeaky clean. The crusty stuff is on my other 2001 Civic EX.

I'll keep checking those other spots you posted earlier. I did notice I could tighten the coolant bottle cap by about 1/3 of a turn.

 
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Well I'm back. Happy Thanksgiving.

I bought the funnel tester. Ran the car for about 25min, 4 or 5 rad fan cycles. While getting it up to temp a few tiny bubbles came out and one about the size of a nickel. After the car was thoroughly hot no bubbles were visible for another period of about 10min until the car was turned off.

Went on some longish road trips - 200mi round trip, another 120 etc over the next few weeks. Now the coolant level is down from Max level to sitting at Min level when checked at cold and when ambient temp is similar.

Any thoughts? Bring it to a shop to do the compressed air test as Ezone claims is the ultimate verifier? Tiny radiator leak as I've seen on this forum? (new one put in 11 months ago but probably not OEM). Thank you in advance.

 
Rep Power: 518

The funnel adapter that fits into the radiator: I ground off the bottom half of the nipple until it was flush with the rubber gasket. This way an air pocket in the top of the radiator tank can bleed out easier, if possible.

That uncut nipple stuck deep into the liquid, and all around and above the level of that nipple could fill with "air" and have to reach a large volume before it could "burp" out from under that nipple. Could be a cup, a pint, a quart of liquid that would need to be displaced before bubbles would be visible.

The head gasket is usually only a small trickle of bubbles, so it would have to do this for quite a while-----accumulate a significant volume of "air" in the top of the system----- before you would ever see a belch of "air" come out.

Did that make any sense?




But OK. If the head gasket can't be proven bad, then you almost surely must be dealing with a slow leak elsewhere.

The usual condition we see with a head gasket leak is coolant displaced (pushed) into the reservoir, and at the same time there is low fluid in the radiator (air pocket). Once the fluid level in the radiator is low enough, it can't pull liquid out of the reservoir.
If your radiator stays completely full while the reservoir level drops, you probably have a plain ordinary leak.


Just refreshed on the first post:Oh my. Head gasket reused?
Oh my. What sealant was used?

Another avenue to consider is a radiator pressure tester.
Cold engine.
Full cooling system.
You would pump up the cooling system to max of 15 PSI and wait. If there is no temperature change but there is a pressure drop over time, then a leak is assumed and investigation starts. Look for leakage evidence.

 
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Sort of, but it's not imperative I understand to resolve this issue.

Yes, head gasket reused. It was about 1month old at the time of re-use. I would have paid for the new gasket myself w/o question if I had known they'd do this.

No idea unfortunately.

Thank you for this advice and previous advice.

Here is my plan:
1. Try to find evidence of rad leak
2. Take it to my mech who is honest and competent to do the cylinder psi test you always mention for HG test. If the HG is failing I can deal with it as I'm an attorney so the legal route is always a backup plan.
3. If HG test negative, have them pursue radiator pressure testing and solve this thing for good.
4. Report back here the solution.

 
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head gaskets can not be reused, and you can NEVER use sealant on a head gasket,

a head gasket needs to be REPLACED every time the head is removed, regardless of age.....it doesnt matter if the engine ran for 10 mins or 10 years, it needs to be replaced every time

 
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Don't use blanket statements in the absolute like these. Too easy to prove false. (I'm still trying to learn not to do this too.)


Some head gaskets DO need sealant (not Hondas, but other makers spec this).
RTFM for each job.
Neon head gasket updates come to mind. They even had special spray sealant JUST for the job.
Small Block and Big Block Chevy engines both required sealer on steel head gaskets, AND on their head bolt threads.

Would you like some Ketchup with your shoe?


I have reused head gaskets several times over the years (most miles was probably 150 though). I know some other techs do it too.
No, it is not 100% right, but *I* know when I can get away with it.
I have even run engines without a head gasket, sealer only.
I have used newspaper+copper coat for a head gasket.



But to address the OP, the engine this thread addresses should NOT have had its head gasket reused.

 
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it was not a blanket statement,

we are on a honda forum, what cars do you think i was referring to?

i am posting a reply in THIS THREAD who else would i be referring to?

 
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Didn't say Honda specifically in the statement, thus the assumption of a blanket statement. It certainly looked like one to me.

Some of us have dealt with far more than just Hondas, that's why I put the RTFM in there........
I have seen non-Civic threads here IIRC.

We DO have an entire outside world that can read these posts too. That's a big reason why I said what I said in that post.

Break is over, gotta run.

 
Rep Power: 254

Things must be tight if you are using newspaper as a headgasket.

Toilet paper maybe?