Rep Power: 173

So i dont know if anyone remembers but i made a thread about my 01 civic ex i planned on taking it on a big trip this past two weeks

well i did, took the car from 212k miles to 216k miles in 9 days

went from NY to VA to SC to FL back to SC and now im in NY again was a great trip and the car averaged about 33-34 mpg at 80 or so mph. since its an EX 5-speed i was seeing a steady 4k plus rpm most of the way


car made it the whole way down and made it back to about an hour south of Washington DC before the CEL started blinking. i shut the car off immediately and checked the code says P0302 for misfire cyl 2. went to the local parts store there borrowed some sockets and the #2 plug was crusty black and all the other plugs were looking normal, if not just a tad white seems to be running alittle lean but ok

i buy a new plug throw it in cyl 2 and the car runs the same. engine shaking and almost no power. I had no choice but to finigh up the last 6 hours of driving like this. the car slow but sure made it up to 65-70 were i kept it the rest of the way home.

the new plug i put in cyl 2 has less than 500 miles on it and it already covered in black soot.

the car will not stop misfiring but starts up fine and runs/drives just with less power.

i took the #2 plug out, disconnected the #2 injector and started the car and put a towel above the hole to see if oil was spraying out and sure as **** im getting some oil splashing up out of the plus hole as its running.

could a misfire be caused by something wrong in the head? perhaps the valve seals? could by problem be the coils, or maybe even the timing belt could have jumped some teeth? is that possible? any help will be greatly appreciated

 
Rep Power: 517

Compression test.

 
Rep Power: 173

ok, just did the compression test WOT warm-

1-140
2-0
3-120
4-140

what should my next step be? i found an engine with 120k miles for $500 i might just do that. I talked to a engine shop they want $175 to just look at and mill the head. anything it needs will be extra. since ill have the head off i might as well do rings etc i can see this going over $500 very very fast if i choose to rebuild

could this still possibly be something easy to fix without taking the head off?

 
Rep Power: 346

Your next step should be:
A) Buy new engine
B) Rebuild your engine

You're not gonna get out of this for less than the cost of either of those two. I'd guess your piston rings in that cylinder are fried.

 
Rep Power: 517

MY next step is to evaluate the customers financial situation to make sure I am going to get paid for the answers, and how likely they are to have the repairs done.
Oh wait, that's the advisors job.

Real next step is to see where the loss of compression is going. That involves applying shop air pressure to each cylinder and locating the leakage--(intake, exhaust, crankcase, or cooling system). That way I know exactly where to look during further steps. All my efforts will be concentrated on the offender, not wasting time and effort inspecting all of the good ones.


YOUR next step should be to pull the valve cover and check and adjust the valves. Initially I'd make sure the valves on the offending cylinder are closed and have clearance when they should.
Use a shop manual for specs and procedures, this is easy to screw up.
(Don't bother replacing any gaskets at this point, see what improvements can be had and how long they will last, first.)

IF you are real lucky, it hasn't burned any valves yet and this can be saved without a lot of work. (I'm not holding my breath though.)

Adjust the valves then redo the compression check.
Any different?
If adjusting the valves made a huge difference, see how it drives.
If no difference, then I can bet the head would have to come off to do any further positive work to this unit.


Now you can figure the cost of stuffing another engine in it, if you wish.
Be aware, do all necessary maint and service work while it is out and easy to do. Timing belt, water pump, any gaskets and seals, and valve adjustment. You have to adjust valves on these engines every so often. All of Hondas engines are made this way.

The maintenance guides all say to adjust valves if they are noisy. Problem with this is, Hondas tend to tighten up the exhaust valves, and tight valves don't make noise. Tight valves burn.
This is why the real people say to adjust valves every 30k or 60k, or something like that. (I never think about it either, until there are fuel trim or misfire codes resulting from tight valves.)


HTH

 
Rep Power: 173

Ok thanks I adjusted valves to spec before I took the car on the trip they were extremely loose about 3-4 times the play than the book called for. Perhaps it would have been better off. I'm sure the high rpm long duration caused the valve to burn its that's why this happened. I will hook the cylinder up to my compressor tomorrow to see where air is leaking. What psi should I set it to to do the test properly?

 
Rep Power: 173

Could bad rings make it have zero compression? I figure no compression would be a cable issue. Its not using any coolant I think its either an exhaust or intake valve leake

 
Rep Power: 517

I'm sure the high rpm long duration caused the valve to burn its that's why this happened.

Completely wrong, and illogical--at the same time.
You don't even know what is really wrong yet.

The valve clearances still need to be checked, regardless. Where are they now?
In spec or out of spec?
If something happened to change clearances since last done, which ones and why?
If YOU adjusted them too tight the last time, what now?

I not only check them, I take notes and use that as part of my information gathering so I can make an assessment.




Maybe a locknut fell off because you didn't get it tight, now it jammed somewhere and is causing a valve to be hung open.

Pull that valve cover off.


What psi should I set it to to do the test properly?

Whatever it takes to determine where the leakage is. Enough to hear or feel air movement.

I use line pressure for this, full 170+PSI.

 
Rep Power: 517

Could bad rings make it have zero compression?

Depends®




I figure no compression would be a cable issue.

A what?
Where?


My cable TV is working fine. What does that have to do with an engine?



Its not using any coolant I think its either an exhaust or intake valve leake

If a piston has a huge hole in the middle of it, it wouldn't use coolant.

If a piston no longer can go up and down, it wouldn't use coolant either.

Both would result in zero compression.

Both are also guesses, just like what you are doing.





I can sit in my recliner and guess all day, too.

 
Rep Power: 173

no reason to be a smart *** i typed all that in the mall on my cell phone and the auto correct sucks. I meant valves not cable

i checked with air pressure and it didnt take much (about 40 psi) to leak air out of all the other cylinders spark plug holes. I could hear a slight slight hissing out of both the intake and exhaust but that could be resonance caused by the air leaking through the rings.

I filled them up with marvel mystery oil and am going to let it soak into the rings to see if it does anything. not that im thinking it will be a magic touch but it wont hurt.

valve clearance is correct and i torqued the lock nuts to book spec i believe 13 or 14 ft/lbs and they are all just fine. coolant is not bubbling it seems to be leaking out of the cylinder and into the others, then out of the spark plug holes.

This is the deepest ive been in diagnosing a problem because its the first time i ran across a problem like this. please bear with me

 
Rep Power: 517

no reason to be a smart *** i typed all that in the mall on my cell phone and the auto correct sucks. I meant valves not cable


You're in the mall, typing on a smartphone.
I'm standing in a line waiting for my cube of government cheese.
Then imma go to tha libarry to use thay freeeee internets.



Yeah, I'm a smartass.
What about it?
Want me to not reply at all?

Think for about 3 extra seconds with more than 3 brain cells---I saw the word CABLE.
WTF am I supposed to think?

I tried checking with this dude


He had no idea either.

You left it that way when you hit the submit button.
I had no freeking clue what you really meant.
I bet most other people that bothered to read that post had no clue either. I'm the one that said so.
Cupcake.

No smiley, no LOL.

-----------------------------------------------

Now then.....

i checked with air pressure and it didnt take much (about 40 psi) to leak air out of all the other cylinders spark plug holes. I could hear a slight slight hissing out of both the intake and exhaust but that could be resonance caused by the air leaking through the rings.

valve clearance is correct and i torqued the lock nuts to book spec i believe 13 or 14 ft/lbs and they are all just fine. coolant is not bubbling it seems to be leaking out of the cylinder and into the others, then out of the spark plug holes.

Since you state that your clearances, the locknuts, "and they are all just fine", I am going to assume you haven't bothered to pull the valve cover back off to double check anything.
Again, no smiley.

Without knowing exactly what you did during the checks, I'd say to make absolutely certain that the cylinder you are checking has its piston at Top Dead Center on the compression stroke, and all of the valves are closed for that cylinder (all rocker arms have clearance).
This is why the valve cover needs to be off for this check.
One set of valves or the other will not have any clearance if you have the piston up on valve overlap instead of compression.

Plug the other 3 cylinders' plug holes with the sparkplugs so you can hear where the air is exiting from the one you are checking.

Air coming out of all the plug holes would tell me the valves aren't sealed on the cylinder you have air pressure on. If it isn't an error on your part, then you have burned a valve.

I filled them up with marvel mystery oil and am going to let it soak into the rings to see if it does anything. not that im thinking it will be a magic touch but it wont hurt.

If your problem isn't caused by the rings, this won't help.



This is the deepest ive been in diagnosing a problem because its the first time i ran across a problem like this. please bear with me

Grow some skin. Stop getting offended at the crap I say.
Kill your autocorrect, or double check your posts to see if they would make sense to someone besides yourself.

 
Rep Power: 173

Jesus Christ your quite a character.

valve cover ---is--- off i checked clearances the only way i know how... with the cover off. im not reporting about anything i found BEFORE the problem as that would be irrelevant.

ive done valve adjustments on some toyota's before as well as done some rocker jobs on pushrod motors, i know the basics and everytime i did then the motor ran very smooth no issues arose

the way i checked for top dead center was put the dip stick into the plug hole and wait for the cyl to be at the top, and then i felt for play on all 4 valve rockers so i knew they were all closed so i was certain the cyl was at top dead center, on the compression stroke. when i applied air pressure the cyl stayed up so i dont think i did this wrong, if it was wrong the pressure would have pushed the cyl back down

 
Rep Power: 517

Jesus Christ your quite a character.

I'm a character, but I'm not that guy.
Next I'll pick on the improper use of the word "your".

valve cover ---is--- off i checked clearances the only way i know how... with the cover off. im not reporting about anything i found BEFORE the problem as that would be irrelevant.

Ok, at least you aren't an idiot at this.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I have no way to assess your mechanical abilities other than your written words, and my interpretation of those words.
The picture I got in my head by reading your post may not be the same one you intended to draw.

Many of my comments result from years of working with entitled precious snowflakes that rattle off whatever they think you want to hear, and do the absolute least amount of work that can possibly still merit a paycheck at the end of the week.

IOW, I can't just look and see what you have or what you did. I can only go by the written words, and I have a reading comprehension problem. If you ever read some of the other threads I have crapped on, you'd already know this.

*insert LOL or smiley here*

ive done valve adjustments on some toyota's before as well as done some rocker jobs on pushrod motors, i know the basics and everytime i did then the motor ran very smooth no issues arose




Ummmm.....

i checked clearances

Did any of the valves have an unusually large amount of clearance when you checked them this time?
A carbon wedge in a guide could have a valve held open, that would cause a lot of clearance to suddenly occur.
Seen it a couple times. Rare though.

A bent valve would also cause a lot of clearance all of a sudden. I seriously doubt a single valve would get bent though without something else drastic happening.




the way i checked for top dead center was put the dip stick into the plug hole and wait for the cyl to be at the top, and then i felt for play on all 4 valve rockers so i knew they were all closed so i was certain the cyl was at top dead center, on the compression stroke. when i applied air pressure the cyl stayed up so i dont think i did this wrong, if it was wrong the pressure would have pushed the cyl back down

All true and accurate. Great.

So.....Is it an exhaust valve, or an intake valve that is burned?
Did you screw the other 3 plugs back in and do that test again to figure it out?

During the air pressure check, you can stuff the valve cover back on and hold it with your hands, that way if the pressure leakage was going into the crankcase you would be able to feel the air movement coming out of the breather vent nipple. That would indicate rings or piston. (With the valve cover off, there is no way to concentrate any air movement to one small area to be felt with your nose or finger.)
Note that some amount of leakage IS normal through the rings on any engine, so a little bit of air movement coming from the crankcase can be expected.


Was this response better?

 
Rep Power: 173

The last part was perfect. i will retry putting other plugs in with cover on to recheck. like i said when i re checked clearances for the valve rockers they all came in within spec so the gaps have niether shrunk nor grown since i last tested and adjusted before the trip

I have noticed from meeting many car people over the years over the internet then in real life at a meet etc they are quite the different person. I was trying to say the facts with my post, rather than accurately elaborate on my mechanical abilities ill try harder next time

 
Rep Power: 517

I'm the homeless looking guy in the corner drooling on himself and rocking back and forth.

Or maybe I'm this guy

 
Rep Power: 173

I did a leak down test again with the plugs in the cyl # 13&4 and applied 100 psi to the #2 cyl. you could clearly hear a leak. put my head next to the throttle body could hear a hiss but did not feel any air. then i went to the tail pipe and could actually feel wind blowing out of the pipe. this does not show up on the valves as having more play due to being bent either, seems kinda weird

Im about to just say f*ck it, pull the head have a basic rebuild done by a shop and while its in there, pull the pan off loosen up the connecting rods and slide the pistons out, clean them up and install new rings along with a basic hone to the cyl walls

Im really trying to avoid this but doesn't look possible

what i did that actually made the hesitation and misfire go away for about an hour of driving was filled the cyl with seafoam and started the car with just 1,3 and 4 with coils and i unplugged the #2 injector so the #2 cyl was completly dead. I let the seafoam splash around for about a half hour at idle reving every once in awhile and getting a huge smoke show everytime i did. After i did this the misfire went away and the car ran with 90% or more of the power it had before the trip. It resumed misfiring shortly after, but alot of the hessetation and power loss is gone and the car is still doing 0-60 in under 10 seconds (yea i know not the best idea but i wanted to compare to when i got the car, which was low 9 seconds)

when the car is at idle the #2 cyl has zero compression. i left the compression gauge on when the car was running on the other cyl and anything past 2500 or so rpm compression started to rise. would this be a sticking valve? am i on to something or am i wasting my time?

 
Rep Power: 517

I tried several times to get this to send during my lunch, the site must have been down.



i went to the tail pipe and could actually feel wind blowing out of the pipe.

Exhaust valve problem. Simple. If there is clearance and the valves should be closed, then the head needs pulled off.



Im about to just say f*ck it, pull the head have a basic rebuild done by a shop and while its in there, pull the pan off loosen up the connecting rods and slide the pistons out, clean them up and install new rings along with a basic hone to the cyl walls

The head will be off, now is the time to do it if you are going to do it.

If I was doing it for myself, I wouldn't pull the engine out. I'd only ring it and stuff them back in. I wouldn't bother honing. Reasoning: The crosshatch pattern left in the cylinder walls from the honing process is what controls oil consumption. Too much angle or too deep and the thing will use oil. Extremely specific tolerances, and a dingleberry hone isn't going to cut it. I'm not sure I can trust many of the machine shops here to do it the way I'd expect. (But if the cylinder walls have a problem, this won't work.) I'd rather have a little longer break in period if it will achieve a low oil consumption rate later on.



After i did this the misfire went away and the car ran with 90% or more of the power it had before the trip.

I think this may be all in your head. A dead hole is a dead hole.
Did you rerun a compression check while it ran decent?


It resumed misfiring shortly after, but alot of the hessetation and power loss is gone and the car is still doing 0-60 in under 10 seconds (yea i know not the best idea but i wanted to compare to when i got the car, which was low 9 seconds)
Ah, the neck snapping acceleration of a Civic. LOL

when the car is at idle the #2 cyl has zero compression. i left the compression gauge on when the car was running on the other cyl and anything past 2500 or so rpm compression started to rise. would this be a sticking valve? am i on to something or am i wasting my time?

No, this would be because of the valve leaking. At higher engine speeds the volume of air moving is greater than what the leak can pass, so some compression is retained before it leaks out.
At idle, piston speed is slow, so there is plenty of time for the leaking valve to let the compression be lost.
Did that make any sense? If you can outrun the rate of leakage, you get a little bit of work out of it.
If you have a 1 inch hole in your bucket, it will leak out everything just as fast as you can fill it with a 1/2 inch hose.
But if you can fill it with a 3 inch fire hose, the bucket will hold some before it all leaks out.

How was that one?

HTH

 
Rep Power: 173

here is proof why you are correct...



thats my #2 exhaust valve. im guessing this had to due to my sustained high speed from florida to NY and the heat associated with holding 4500 rpm for hours at a time.

head is going to go to the shop either tomorrow or friday

now the question is what should i do with the bottom end if anything?

 
Rep Power: 517

here is proof why you are correct...

*I* need proof? LOL



thats my #2 exhaust valve. im guessing this had to due to my sustained high speed from florida to NY and the heat associated with holding 4500 rpm for hours at a time.

I'd be more inclined to be guessing that it has over 200k and darn near anything can happen.

The rest of the valves made it just fine, and they are all just as old as the burned one.
SO why did this one decide to let go?
The sustained high RPM should not have caused the problem, nor had any bearing on the problem.

This COULD have started with something as simple as a chunk of carbon stuck, causing that valve to not seal.
So there is now a leak through that valve.
Everything was just fine until now.
Hot exhaust gases act like a cutting torch, eating their way through the area that leaks, the entire time the engine is running, until there is enough cut away that the cylinder can't build compression anymore.
No compression = no fire.

You will probably never know what the real cause was that started this, all you can do now is fix the end result.Probably will be replace the burned one and a standard valve job for the rest.

now the question is what should i do with the bottom end if anything?

Since you are committing to send the head to the machine shop, I guess you are keeping this engine.

With over 200k, and depending on just how much longer you expect to own and drive the car, I'd do rings and slide in a fresh set of bearings and all the gaskets and seals that can be done, just because now is the time to do it, (and I would do it with the engine in the car, because I am cheap and lazy but I want as much as possible done without a lot of expense!) You can't predict how long the original parts will last, and you aren't going to want to open it up again very soon, I'm sure.

Also, the standard timing belt, tensioner pulley with the spring, and water pump.

I'm thinking of all this as a DIY, I'm not considering labor costs at all.


I did this same thing (in the car rebuild) to a 1990 Olds Calais with a 2.3 Quad 4 engine about 12 years ago. This car was found in a wrecking yard, and I bought it for $100. It had sit for a couple years with a blown head gasket and antifreeze in the cylinder and crankcase.
It only had 50,000 miles on it, so I took the chance.
I got an engine kit and did it.
(That Quad 4 was a miserable SOB to do, that was the first time I had been into a Quad of any version.)
The car was running and driving for a total of $600, and that included license plates. Had it for 11 more years. Body rusted away before the drivetrain quit.

 
Rep Power: 173

ok thanks. ill pop the pistons out this weekend and bring them over to the shop so they can inspect the bearings and give an opinion on them.

I have not made up my mind yet if i want to keep the engine or get one with a 100k or so on it if i can find one cheap enough. I figure if the head work is about $300 and the rings are about $50 the headgasket set is another $100 im in the hole less than that used engine cost and i know my valve seals, valves, HG and rings are new which is better than that chance of an old engine could get me

I dont plan to keep the car much longer than this year and at most until this time next year. the timing belt still looks like new still supple etc and no cracks or anything out of the ordinary. it was changed about 3 or 4 years ago and has about 70k miles on it. Id rather not spend $100 plus hours more work if i dont have to so im going to leave that in place

 
Rep Power: 517

Did you price an engine overhaul set? Might be fairly cheap since that is a somewhat popular engine.

Only a year? I might be inclined to do the bare minimum to make it run and then dump it ASAP. If I sink a bunch of time and money into an engine, I expect to keep it a while and make use of it.


Timing belt (only), dealer LIST price is only $25.
And, uhh, I have the timing belt all the way off when I pull the head off that engine. Just easier if it is completely out of the way, for me.

If the tensioner pulley and spring has never ever been replaced, I have seen them let go at 200k. That's a $100 list price.


HTH

 
Rep Power: 173

to be honest the only reason why i got this car was i paid $900 for it. through circumstances of my life, and selling my regal the day i listed it i put it on the road instead of flipping it like i had planned. it did me good for 5,000 miles in the month or so ive had it everything but the input shaft bearing making a slight noise works great including A/C. i dont think i can find a better beater for under $2g's so im going to fix the car to last for at least another year while i figure out what i want to do in other aspects of life. i could sell it a few days after i fix it, or i could keep it till next year or beyond. i just want the engine to purr like it did when i bought it im not trying to make the car reliable like its brand new. I know there is no rod knock, no coolant leaks etc etc so full rebuild is out of the question.

I suppose i could just do the timing belt for $25 its worth it but since the belt looks so good i just left the belt on still, and i planned to just slip the head back under the belt, double check timing and be done with it. ill be adding another hour plus on the take apart and rebuild by doing the belt so thats why im trying to avoid it

any aftermarket brands to go for or stay away from as far as piston rings, valve seals and valves are concerned?

 
Rep Power: 517

Honestly, no real clue here. I have worked at this dealer since 03, and for a customer it would be factory parts.

If you are going aftermarket, I'd suggest checking with your machine shop for their opinions, and use well known brand name parts.

This sort of work is rare or almost nonexistent where I am at though. Nobody has wanted to put rings in one as of yet, even when it's a known smoker. And Hondas in general rarely have internal engine problems before they wear out.

I think sticking a low mile used engine in is probably more cost effective for non-DIY'ers, once all the markup and labor money is figured in.

I checked out a blown head gasket on a 7th gen for a customer that drove over from one of the other dealers near me (an hour away). He said that that dealer wouldn't even do head gaskets on these.
He believed they are trying to either sell more engines or get the owners to trade for newer cars.
(I thought maybe they lost any techs they could trust to actually do the work and not cause more problems in the process.)


JMHO, YMMV.

HTH

 
Rep Power: 173

So i think im actually going to do this on my own.

Im going to start tomorrow on the head, ill test the valves for leaks like i found in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7YXg...eature=related

next ill lap all the valves till they are butter smooth like show in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkxPp_NNTZI

now when i get to the valve thats got the hole or any valves that are bent and i will be replacing, should i using the compound on the new valves too? im guessing i should so that they sit on the valve seat good. but not sure so im asking for opinions on that

Once i have all valves seated good ill throw on some new valve seals and reinstall the head

anything im missing or i should add or modify? hoping to have the car running good by next weekend and all parts including gaskets, seals and timing belt/tensioner come to $200 shipped which sounds alot better than $400+ to have the head gone through by a professional

 
Rep Power: 517

Edited: The filter kicked in.

anything im missing

Yeah.
All of the science behind machining (grinding) valves, guides, and seats.
You are missing 90% of a good job.
"Lapping" is a final step after grinding the valves.

Your way might work.
"How long will it last" becomes the question.


have the head gone through by a professional

I would expect the work of a professional to last far longer than the work of an amateur.
When you get to the seat on the burned valve, it should have damage similar to the burned valve. The damage will be spread fairly evenly around, so it may not be obvious to the untrained eyes.
I believe it will need more help than you are equipped to give.

But hey, you are just going to dump the car off on some other sucka, right?

 
Rep Power: 173

I get what you are saying but im kinda interested in trying this myself. This project went from i need to get it done, to i have about two weeks to use another car daily so i have time to try it myself and if it doesn't work i dont have much invested in it anyway as far as money is concerned. Also, no i dont plan to sell for awhile so if its going to fail its going to fail on me. its going to get another 10k or so miles on it before i sell. All the other cyl are holding the same compression compared to before the trip to Florida this was the only one bad and also after applying pressure to all the cyl this was the only one leaking. if the other cyl were bad they would have shown up then i would imagine.

if you use the grinding compound, wouldn't the valve seat be shinny and clean compared to before if the valve is seating correctly? if there are any uneven spots on the seat, wouldn't they stay dirty because since they wouldn't be touching they wouldn't sand themselves smooth?

 
Rep Power: 517

if you use the grinding compound, wouldn't the valve seat be shinny and clean compared to before if the valve is seating correctly?

No.
You had a cutting torch effectively burn a huge slice through the side of a steel valve. The seat also took a large part of the same abuse, only it is spread out over the entire diameter of the seat. This is because the valves rotate as they operate.

if there are any uneven spots on the seat, wouldn't they stay dirty

They might be noticeable. No guarantees though.

because since they wouldn't be touching they wouldn't sand themselves smooth?

This process is very similar to lapping your valves:
Have you ever seen glass ground surfaces that seal? The ground surfaces are NOT smooth and shiny.




The machining process makes the parts shiny and smooth, and gets the tolerances pretty darn close.
Blue Dykem is used to check for concentricity and making sure the valve and seat are matched -- not only for contact, but for location of the seal areas--before final lapping.

(Valves often seal with an interference fit of less than one degree, not two perfectly matched surfaces with the same angles. That could give too much surface area for carbon to get caught in and cause poor sealing. Multiple angles ground out of the seat adjust where the contact area is on the face of the valve. Heat transfer is another important consideration, and making sure there isn't too sharp of an edge on the valve because that would promote another burned valve.
Plus a lot more. A manual would have specs for the specific engine. A machinist could make use of those specs.)

Lapping makes them seal with an absolute minimum of further material removal, which could alter the size and location of the sealing area.
Lapping leaves a roughened surface like on the tapered part of the glass stopper above. It is ground into its mating surface to achieve good contact for a good seal.

HTH

 
Rep Power: 173

thanks for the information again, looks like we are the only ones in here so i appreciate your responses.

No.
You had a cutting torch effectively burn a huge slice through the side of a steel valve. The seat also took a large part of the same abuse, only it is spread out over the entire diameter of the seat. This is because the valves rotate as they operate

I understand all that, but that doesnt anser my question of after lapping the contact area between seat and valve should be shinney, it seems like it should anyway since the area will be very clean, and any dark spots in that contact area would be pitting and that would tell me to keep going with the grinding compound until smooth, correct?


Anyway, I had some more time today to take the head apart, and i read online you could use some kerosene to test if the valve is leaking. All valves leaked absolutely zero fluid through them when i filled up the chamber before the valve with the kerosene. i didnt try the burnt valve for obvious reasons and thats why the right valve is soaked and the left valve in the picture is dry

here are some pictures of the burnt valve and its seating area, along with its neighboring exhaust valve to show that they look identical, im thinking 2 new exhaust valves for that cyl and a few minutes of lapping on all the valves in the head should be ok. top it all off with new valve seals and i think the head will be good to go for a long, long time again.







one thing you can clearly see is the enormous amount of oil deposits crusted on the valves. after just 400 miles, the spark plug in that cyl was completely coated in oil as well indicating one hell of an oil leak in that cyl. no other valve in the entire head is like that, all the intake valves have zero deposits and all the exhaust valves have barely anything, than you get to cyl 2 and one valve is coated in a hard layer of crap and the other has a hole in it. so im thinking the leaking seals had a roll in this. Like i said i went through about 10 quarts of oil in two weeks over 3k miles. all that leaking oil onto those valves could have made them over heat and crack. and then i had to drive 6 hours home with the engine misfiring, which could have made the crack turn into a hole.

 
Rep Power: 366

pmjr0987, you are talking to our best guy for this kinda stuff, as you might have noticed already, so just listen to him
we cannot even butt in 'cos he already said what needs to be said :P
and with a horrid sense of humor to add

 
Rep Power: 517

I understand all that, but that doesnt anser my question of after lapping the contact area between seat and valve should be shinney, it seems like it should anyway since the area will be very clean, and any dark spots in that contact area would be pitting and that would tell me to keep going with the grinding compound until smooth, correct?

I think I see what you are getting at now.
I'm used to seeing lapping as part of a valve job, and what you are doing is not what a professional would do.
You have carboned up (black) valves, so yes you would see fresh shinier metal (by comparison) when you successfully lap them in.



top it all off with new valve seals and i think the head will be good to go for a long, long time again.

Cross your fingers!
Only time (and miles) will tell.

one thing you can clearly see is the enormous amount of oil deposits crusted on the valves. after just 400 miles, the spark plug in that cyl was completely coated in oil as well indicating one hell of an oil leak in that cyl. no other valve in the entire head is like that, all the intake valves have zero deposits and all the exhaust valves have barely anything, than you get to cyl 2 and one valve is coated in a hard layer of crap and the other has a hole in it. so im thinking the leaking seals had a roll in this. Like i said i went through about 10 quarts of oil in two weeks over 3k miles. all that leaking oil onto those valves could have made them over heat and crack. and then i had to drive 6 hours home with the engine misfiring, which could have made the crack turn into a hole.

Difficult to tell what came first, or what caused what.

Random thoughts:
If you had a severe oil consumption problem BEFORE the valve burned and started the misfiring dead cylinder, then it is probably still there, lurking, waiting to cause more problems.
You have a ton of miles on it, oil burning could be expected.
Did this cylinder had an issue with fouling the plug prior to all this?
Some of the mess is going to be carbon/fuel from incomplete combustion.
Some oil could be contributed from rings, and add a little for getting washed down with raw fuel because of the misfire.

I think I'd still strongly consider-- at the bare minimum-- stuffing a set of rings in it while the head is off.

Don't forget to consider that the catalytic converter probably didn't survive the 6 hour trip with all of the misfiring. You will probably set a P0420 soon after you get it running again.


HTH