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lolwut?

 
Rep Power: 174

lmao man your fast bro

I did that to test if it was going to go through before i started typing my real question haha. i swear i wrote it out 5 times yesterday and every time i posted it would not go through so i just make a quick "test" post to verify it was working i edited that nonsense out with my actual post

 
Rep Power: 518

My email popped it up.

You aren't reading the numbers correctly. The 6 and 8 mm does NOT refer to the wrench size, they refer to the diameter of the threaded shank.



A 10mm wrench is usually on a 6mm bolt.
A 12mm wrench is usually on an 8mm bolt on Asian cars.
Neither of these are 100% true at all times.

US and Euro would have a 13mm head on an 8mm bolt, and there are plenty of other specialty fasteners that use odd sizes.


Looks like you are doing the cam caps/rocker shafts? The 8.x and 14 ft/lb sound right.

Make more sense?

Make sure you use sealant on any of the caps that are exposed to the outside.

HTH

 
Rep Power: 174

yes that does. weird to me that they use the shank size instead of the head size, but i never went by a service manual before for repair so this is good to know. ill re torque them to spec and then do my valve adjustment. after that i should be ready to go for starting the car up and starting the break in

 
Rep Power: 174

just an update, got everything back together and went to start it today. no compression. timing was about 45* off i think. i dont know what happened or how i did it, but its done. Im pretty sure at this point i bent some or all the valves. i slid the timing belt off the cam gear and got it in proper timing with the crank, but i cant get the belt back on this way.

any easy way to release tension on the timing belt with out removing the lower cover? once i get the belt on and try starting if the valves are really bent the car will be going on craigslist. I cannot even begin to say how pissed i am at myself for this. Ive got close to 20 hours of head scratching sweating and just strait work into this motor so far i hate to think this is how it ends. I checked timing a few times, but must have been looking at the wrong thing because when i pulled the balancer about an hour ago the key slot in the crank was on the top, while the "up" mark on the cam pulley was at 3 o clock then a 360* spin of the crank counter clockwise put it at 9 o clock. any light that can be shed on this would be very helpful im at my wits end!

 
Rep Power: 518

Ouch!
Which direction were you turning the crank?
It turns counterclockwise, as you face the pulleys.
Rolling it the wrong direction could make it skip teeth on the belt.

I'll guess the fastest way to redo timing is to drop the crank pulley and lower cover, release the spring, turn the pulley to release tension. Set the timing. Then reassemble everything.
I don't remember ever needing to do this after making sure I had it right though, and I don't know if the one bracket will be in the way.


I am still wondering why I am not getting email notifications on thread updates!

 
Rep Power: 174

ok thanks for the tip. pulled the balancer off, took the lower cover off and at the timing belt tensioner there is actually a steel tab on the opposite side of the spring that you can push up on that will release tension without having to release the spring and mess with that.

Got it timed up and the car started right up.

I still have the first o2 unplugged waiting on a new one, and the rear stud of the alternator broke when i unbolted it so i need an alternator i let it run for 20 minutes idling with 30w non detergent oil as recommended online. basically until the fan turned on.

after that i dumped the oil and threw in some 5w-30. took it for a 5 mile drive around my block using a lot or rev changing and letting the engine slow the car down with revs as recommended as well, to seat the rings better. besides the CEL light, battery light, fact it wont go over 4k rpm (maybe forgot to plug in vtec idk) and jumpy idle id say its running pretty dam good! happy that it is too, for awhile i really though i f*cked everything up with the timing being off lol.

going to order a new alternator and get back to it on Monday, off to long island now to get drunk this weekend for my aunts wedding! thanks again for all the help, in a little while im going to post up some progress pictures i have to contribute to the thread its been a long bumpy ride going from "what the hell is wrong with my car" to breaking in new piston rings, and im still not done!

 
Rep Power: 518

ok thanks for the tip. pulled the balancer off, took the lower cover off and at the timing belt tensioner there is actually a steel tab on the opposite side of the spring that you can push up on that will release tension without having to release the spring and mess with that.

There is a hole for an Allen wrench, you can just turn it to get the belt off. I don't like to do that, it can overstretch the spring. That's why I take the spring off.



Got it timed up and the car started right up.

Bet you jumped for joy too.



besides the CEL light, battery light, fact it wont go over 4k rpm (maybe forgot to plug in vtec idk)

Look into the CEL to be sure of what it is.
VTEC missing would limit RPM.


and jumpy idle

It very well could be doing this because of the lack of load from the missing alternator.


off to long island now to get drunk this weekend for my aunts wedding!

Drink an 18 pack for me, since I don't drink anymore.



Good to hear it runs now!

 
Rep Power: 253

Hah I am not far from LI. Good to hear it all worked out for you. Your braver then I am.

 
Rep Power: 174

update and new problem... almost there

So i bought a junkyard alternator for $30 and installed. installed everything else on the engine too.

started the car and did the 3k rpm until warm idle procedure and shut it off. Have no CEL lights or anything besides the battery light. turned the car back on and took it for a 20 minute drive. car runs and drives mint. im breaking the car in hard to ensure a proper seal for the piston rings.

the entire drive the car drove great. wipers had good power and the headlights did not dim. all this while the battery light never turned off, and its still on

what should i do to fix this? i dont trust the car at this time to start using it to take to work etc i cant afford to get stranded. I have heard of a few things that could cause this besides the battery and alternator, and im pretty sure i shorted *something* out when i getto rigged the positive wire to the broken terminal post on the old alternator. like i said up a few posts, the second i went to attach the battery it arced so bad it melted to the battery post a little. so is there a good place to start looking for this mystery gremlin?

 
Rep Power: 518

Is the alt correct for the car?
Has the alt been tested and verified good?


You sparked the bigass wire on the alt: Did it blow the 80amp fuse?


In the 4 wire connector on the alt: Blk/yel should have 12vB+ from fuse #4....Does it?

Unplug the 4 wire connector, turn the key on. Is the idiot light on or off? (I'm asking, I don't remember what this is supposed to do, since the light is controlled by the PCM instead of the alt/Vreg.)

 
Rep Power: 174

They assured me it was tested previous to me picking up and installing. there is always that chance though.

Story goes i had everything plugged in with the old alternator, and put the positive on the battery and when going for the negative it arched and melted/stuck to the post for a split second before i reacted and yanked it off. im pretty sure no wires are affected.

If i blew a big fuse, wouldn't that make the car not run/drive? its acting like the alternator is dead, verified by my radar detector (shows voltage at the 12v socket) and stayed at battery level the whole drive. this could be as easy as a bad alternator they gave me. ill probably just **** it out and bring it to auto zone to be tested separately from the car and its possible problems

 
Rep Power: 518

So do the blk/yel and the big wire still have B+?

Sorry, I keep thinking that 30 seconds with a test light would be time well spent.

 
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i agree, im just such a retard when it comes to electronic testing, lol. probably because im always shying away from it! what do you mean by B+? im guessing battery plus, meaning over 12v when running? or am i completely off?

 
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If you have a test light and it lights up when you test those two wires they have B+.

 
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B+ is always battery (system) voltage, whatever that may be....as opposed to a ground or an open circuit.

Those 2 wires should have B+ with the key on / engine not running.

 
Rep Power: 518

While the other end of the test light is clipped to the battery ground.






To use the light to check for grounds, you would clip the wire end to the battery positive terminal (B+).


Make sense?

 
Rep Power: 174

It does, thanks. Should i do this test with the car running, or the car off?

I thought you were referring to using a Multimeter to check. I have used the test light many times to check for power for various things around the car, but never the Multimeter. Ill check all that stuff tomorrow and see what comes up.

 
Rep Power: 518

Ummm....


I use a DVOM when I need precise measurements. A meter is more time consuming to use, for me.
I use a test light just to verify there is a power or ground of some sort. A light is fast and easy, but it is not a voltmeter. I don't always NEED a voltmeter.


If the light is as bright as it is right on the battery terminals, then I assume it is close enough to battery voltage to work. If the light is dimmer, then the light isn't getting full power or full ground. Then I can break out the meter and see why the light was dimmer, if necessary.

In my world, time is money. I pick whatever is fastest and accurate enough to give me whatever info I need at that time.

I also know that a light bulb is a load, and should not be used on computer circuits without serious knowledge of what you are doing. You can roast expensive stuff in a hurry.

 
Rep Power: 193

Still a good idea to learn how to use a multimeter, the big dial with all the different settings looks complicated but it's really not.

 
Rep Power: 174

thanks guys. looks like i have some learning to do on this subject, it will be beneficial on future projects

anyway, awhile back i got one of these meters for free from harbor freight. i know its not "the best" or probably close to it. but for this it workes fine



power wire was 12.7 as was the battery when checked neg to pos via terminals

it was the damn black/yellow wire, lol. pulled right out of the clip. i fixed that and took the car for a small drive and there are no lights and everything runs drives and works as it should. Thanks again for all the help, to be honest it made this project from semi impossible, to completely doable!!! ill update this when i get a few miles on the car to see how things are

 
Rep Power: 518

NOW do you understand why I said 30 seconds would be time well spent?

 
Rep Power: 193

I'm glad you got it going, I know you were about to sh** a brick when the timing got messed up. You saved yourself a nice bundle of cash.

I'm curious to see how it lasts and how much oil it burns.

 
Rep Power: 174

Thanks i did save alot of money, about $400 on getting a junkyard motor with who knows what problems, and even more from having someone do a head job etc. The timing problem scared me good, all i could think about that night was all the hours spent in the garage and on the computer for nothing lol. thank god its running good.

I do have some issues though. First off its using oil, almost as much as it did before. I think over a quart in 200 miles. i did change it after about 200 miles (first oil change was after about 30 minutes of running) and the oil was dark and had a metallic shimmer in the sun. I ran a magnetic drain plug and it was covered in metal particles. don't know if it was the rings seating, and some filings left from honing with the crank in etc but it was there. i changed the oil and its running so much smoother at idle etc, but i am getting some smoking at WOT high rpm shifts. I have been breaking it in hard and soft, constantly changing my driving as recommended. Could the smoking go away with time, or is it possible i screwed up the honing or maybe even god forbid the spacing on the rings or valve seals etc? it does not smoke at all unless im in the throttle, but im in it alot because these cars are slow as ****, lol

Besides that the car starts and runs super smooth and im getting near identical mpg i was getting before

 
Rep Power: 518

I have no idea what could have happened, but I know a lot could.....
Most oil smoke is ID'd by the conditions it smokes under, so....
General ideas for you, do with it whatever you want:

High RPM smoke is typical of rings. WOT is a low vacuum situation. High piston speeds allow the rings to "skate" over the oil film on the cylinder walls, the upper rings move too fast to "scrape" the film off the walls on the downward stroke so too much of the film ends up on the combustion side of the piston rings.

Valve stem seals typically smoke the most during high manifold vacuum. The deceleration and shift are high vacuum situations. So is an extended period of idling---blip the gas pedal and a puff of smoke comes out.
An engine should pull a good 25" of vacuum or more under a closed throttle deceleration. (used to be true with carb'd engines before computer controls. Should still be true as long as the IAC doesn't open under decel.)


I can't separate these differences based on what you typed, but maybe you can discern some difference by watching what happens under what conditions while you are driving.

Also possible: You got one or more rings on upside down. Upper rings may have some amount of taper on the edge that rides against the cylinder wall, it scrapes oil down. There would have been markings on the rings, and instructions on the wrappers about it.

More randoms


Any of the plugs showing signs of ash deposits yet? One or all? Narrow it to certain cylinders with this?

How much blowby is there in the crankcase? More than the PCV is able to handle at idle RPM? You should be able to cork the VC vent hose with your thumb and have a vacuum slowly build in the crankcase, not pressure at idle. How is the PCV valve?


Plenty of other factors that go for the cylinder walls, and the rings. End gaps, end gap alignment, tension, bore variations, hone angles and depth (RA), scratches, taper.... did you crack any of them during the install? Your machinist should be able to rattle off a list of possible causes too. Maybe even different ideas.

Ring type different from stock? Different ring types may need different cylinder wall finishes and break in.

Remember, the cat can hide a lot of the smoke. (Did it survive?)

What is the compression now? Compare to previous? Keep cranking until the gauge stops climbing, probably 10 hits or more.




HTH

 
Rep Power: 174

ok, will do the compression test, both dry and then do a few drops of oil to see if it rises.

I know i put all the rings in correctly, as far as up and down, i was certain to put all markings facing up as instructions indicated.

Could a clogged cat cause high rpm smoking because there is not enough vacuum to suck the rings in? sounds to me like that is not even plausible, but from what ur saying if the cats clogged its not allowing vacuum because its plugged. I dont notice a loss of power as RPM's rise, but from about 4k to 7k the power is consistent, as in the car does not go faster as the rpm rises, its the same power through out which makes me think clogged cat. I have not gotten around to cutting it out

The smoke only happens when your in the throttle, high rpm 4k+. if im just cruising and i floor it at 2,3k rpm no smoke, its when it starts revving high is when the smoke builds up.

ill get more info once i can run a few tests, but i am curious if the cat was indeed clogged if it could keep the rings from seating because there is too much back pressure to allow proper vacuum

 
Rep Power: 518

Could a clogged cat cause high rpm smoking because there is

Ummm

A cat that is intact and working normally can hide a lot of smoke.

A HOLLOW cat (or empty, whatever) will ALLOW you to SEE ALL the smoke, there is no substrate to burn it off and therefore "hide" the smoke.
not enough vacuum to suck the rings in?

WTF kinda theory is this? No. Just no.




but from about 4k to 7k the power is consistent, as in the car does not go faster as the rpm rises, its the same power through out which makes me think clogged cat.

A CLOGGED cat limits the amount of FLOW.
High RPM and large amounts of throttle are high flow conditions.

(Think of it like YOU trying to breathe through a coffee stir-straw.
Now go for a jog around the block.)

Once it is clogged enough, the manifold vacuum will be lower AS THE engine works against the clogged cat, because of the reduction in available power and the need to open the throttle farther than normal. Vacuum is a function of throttle closing. If the engine is not working hard, vacuum will be normal.

You can measure cat clog with a backpressure gauge, or any pressure gauge that can be screwed into the front O2 hole.
You can determine cat clog by watching manifold vacuum also.


The smoke only happens when your in the throttle, high rpm 4k+. if im just cruising and i floor it at 2,3k rpm no smoke, its when it starts revving high is when the smoke builds up.

Rings.


HTH

 
Rep Power: 174

dammit. knew i should have left the bottom end alone :/

 
Rep Power: 518

I think I said i wouldn't touch the cylinders, but just put fresh rings in. I think you said the bores had scratches in them.


Did you bother to look for wear on the old rings before putting the new ones in?
It sure sounded like they should have had noticeable wear on them, and/or been stuck in the grooves with carbon.


Unless it wasn't rings at all, and the problem is still in there. I don't really see that though. You did check the PCV?

 
Rep Power: 174

i cleaned the pcv valve and it was dirty that was before the build, before the valve was bad (before my trip). I didnt have any smoking issues before the build that i knew of. the old rings were carboned up good in the pistons, and they were very brittle. when i removed the old ones, the top compression ring snapped super easy. i honed the cyl but i mean very little, it was just 3 passes each with alot of atf on the walls and stones and after i was done, you could barely tell i did it besides a few faint cross hatches in the walls.

I did say there were lines in the walls at one point, but after i cleaned the walls i looked again and they were actually smooth, yellowish color, with vertical lines on the front and back of the walls from the piston material coming off on them.

One thing i did was break in the engine for the first 20 minutes with the 30w non detergent but i switched to normal 5w-30 right after that. ran that till about 150 miles and now im on my 3rd oil change with castrol gtx 5w-30, with about 250 or so miles on it to this day. now im reading alot of **** online that is saying i should have used the 30w ND oil for the first 500 miles, which im still in. could this be part of my problem?

i know u know this, but excuse my retarded questions and theories, this is the first time im doing any of this, and its all based of this thread, and things ive read online. My dads friend told me the smoking is normal in the beginning till they seat, but i just drove behind my civic for the first time, and its smoking bad at wot, and you can see faint gray smoke coming out as light throttle, no smoke at idle or start up