redmenace2002

2002 Si owner with 92K. Stock except appearance. This is my third Civic, but first time on a forum. Civics pre-date the internet! Never had a problem before; that's why I'm on my 3rd Civic. Car has been barely driven for 6 months. Went to start and move it after one month of park- warm up idle, then it transitions to jumping idle. Goes from 1k rpm to 2500 rpm over and over. CEL eventually came on.
Thought it was just a sensor or something minor, so I dropped it off at the dealership. They came back with 1100 USD!! I've never had more than a 300 dollar repair in 20 years of Civics! (CVboots in 1995 or so) I ask for details and he tells me he has engine codes for the Idle Air Control valve, Ox2 sensor, and Electronic Load Detector. I tell him to hold his horses, need to check my bank balance. What I really do is check the internet for part prices and some forums for my problem. I find parts for 1/2 price so I'm gonna do it myself. I also find on the internet that the coolant level can upset the IAC. So on the way home from picking up the car, I get some 50/50, park on a sharp incline, and fill the reservoir (overfill). Some bubbles come out of the rad cap. The next day at home, I do the same thing. Some more bubbles come out but smaller. (and a couple of cups of coolant overflow). Reset ECU, but the jumping idle comes back. I'll try the air purge one more time, to see if I'm getting it right. My question is, before I order and replace all three parts (IAC, O2,ELD) Does anyone know which is most likely and therefore first? Are the engine codes just cascading off of each other because of one part failure? O2 is easiest, but most expensive. Should I buy a manual, or can I get enough guidance through this forum? I'm an amateur, I work on carbeurated machines, but I own a lot of manuals and ask help a lot. K engine has intake on front but IAC seems buried at the bottom of throttle body and how many systems need to be removed to get down there and get it out? Is my plan sound, or am I headed in the wrong direction? Thanks fellas.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

iac can simply be cleaned. thats the part bolted to the throttle body with the two coolant hoses going to it. take it off, spray inside with carb cleaner, and put it back. that should fix the idle. then 02 sensor is $50 at the auto store for a bosch oem type, you can change that yourself too with a wrench or a special socket. eld, well if they said its a problem then you need a new fuse box. eld is inside and part of it. usually you can find a used one pretty cheap.

redmenace2002

Solid advice. I can start there. The IAC and O2 are not related are they? One failure does not lead to the other, as far as I understand what they do. So they just happen to both end their lives at about 7 years/90k miles? Stealership report is probably as reliable as they are. I could start with cleaning and then try to get OBD code again.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

no, iac is responsible for idle speed when you are not pressing the gas. o2 sensor might affect the way car drives, but usually you wont notice except getting few less mpg. o2 sensors are rated to last 100k miles, but i had mine go bad at 80k. iac lasts almost forever, it just needs cleaning to keep it working properly. you prolly should clean the pcv valve too, im not sure where it is on your car tho.

redmenace2002

So that contributes to Stealership's outragous bill. They don't want to bother cleaning the IAC and re-installing. On the possibility that it is "bad" anyway. Just charge for part, charge for install, print bill, done. I'll start with that, and get to the O2 next. It is coming up on 100k so I guess replacing a sensor is expected (that was my original expectation). What about manual? I found two places to download manual. One looks a little suspicious at 6.99.
(http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.p...ic-car-service)
The other is "on-line access" for 11.99. No download as far as I can tell.
(http://www.eautorepair.net/Marketing...Fchn5QodJ2l0pg)
Paper/Print version is 90 rocks! Do you have a recommendation on getting access to a manual. The car is 7 years old and 90k, and I barely drive it. Will probably sell it within next year.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

you dont really need a manual if youre just doing those simple things. it just bolt off and bolt on type of stuff. i would say get the honda paper manual but i doubt youd use it more than a few times. check ebay sometimes they sell used ones or cd version for cheap.

redmenace2002

Throttle body is off. Yes, just lines, connectors and bolts. BUT, two phillips head screws on the bottom were corroded in. Stripped, broke extractor, ground off heads. Still working on it. Since I'm saving 1100 bucks, I'm going to go buy some kick-*** cobalt drill bits, some left handed drill bits, and a better extractor set. If I screw up this IAC then that is another 170 on the tab. It sucks, but I'm looking on the bright side. Those #3 phillips head screws are also found on Honda cycles, and I've always had trouble getting them out. How do the techs do it? (I got an impact driver just for them. Didn't work in this case)

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

yeah the philips screws suck. dont worry, usually you can get a whole throttle body on ebay used for around $50. worst case you may need to dremel off the screws, get the iac off, then carefully drill out the screw bits from throttle body. and retap if necessary.

redmenace2002

Thanks for the encouragement, GearBox. I keep hearing about these, "50 dollar T/B on Ebay". (I searched forums quite a bit over the last 3 days while contemplating this repair) Are you just talking about the machined throttle body piece itself? or the whole assembly? My engine is a K-2litre. I didn't see it by searching my model. Should I type in my engine type? The whole thing(with IAC, and other sensors), new is 500 rocks. If I popped that sucker in, I would still be way ahead of the dealership price.

seoul4korea

Everything Gear box said is what I would have said as well. I just got done doing alot of work and with alot of work and such I FINALLY figured out what was wrong with mine. O2 sensor are an easy change. As for snapping those screwes it sounds like your on the right track. What year/make/model do you have? you said you have a K20? What you want to look for on Ebay is people that are selling their old TB. Most of the people that are selling their TB have it as extra because the swapped their's out OR its a junk yard that sells parts. when you do your search I would type it something like this "Year**** k20 throttle body"

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

hmm yeah those SI are harder to find parts for. i didnt come across any used tb on ebay. i did see this one, not sure how well it works or not. you need to use your old sensors and everything. but shouldnt be an issue if you can chop off the iac.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OBX-7...Q5fAccessories

redmenace2002

If anyone is interested in an update:
Never got screws out! They were absolutely WELDED into the threads. Not coolant corrosion, by the way, just bi-metal action. Seal/gasket was tight. Screws are cheap metal and body is aluminum. Screwed up the throttle body. If I was more careful (I know I made two
mistakes in bad lighting, with high frustration) I could have saved the TB but just got tired of the machine work. Whole new assembly is on the way! (HondaPartsNow=400 bucks) I still haven't got it bolted up, and engine turned over. This friday I will see if O2 code is still there.

redmenace2002

Update for My Main Man, Gearbox. (Do you run this site?)
New TB just popped in. (part arrived the day before I left the state on a month long trip) Two of the sensors have the same plug. Had them switched initially, but saw that the wire loom was tight.
Turned over just fine, after reset with neg. off.
Will take it for test ride. See if warning light goes on. Will not bother with ELD and O2 sensor if it runs well. I believe the upstream O2 sensor (the expensive one) is involved with Air/Fuel mixture. I'll calculate my mpg for a couple of tanks and see if there is any variation. Was getting 27, non-highway. Which sucks, but that is another forum topic.
Thanks for your help, Civicforums!

RonJ

Whenever you have CEL codes, the first step is to reset the ECU, drive the car, and then see if any of the codes repeat. Did you do this? Otherwise, you could be repairing something unnecessarily. Or did all three codes repeat? Currently, what specific CEL codes are being thrown?

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

try the idle learn procedure whenever you swap the throttle body or remove/install it. also i hope you got the right part for your transmission type auto or manual otherwise the wrong one is gonna cause problems.

redmenace2002

Gearbox... RonJ.... You still out there?
CEL is still on. Reset it with fuse and with neg. off. It would turn off, if I remember correctly, but now it won't shut off even with the fuse/neg. reset. If I go through more driving cycles, will the codes shut off? Now since the work I've gone to Autozone to get the codes (before, I just had the report of the stealership). Here they are:
P0500-speed sensor. Speedo died!(I'll get to that)
P1298- ELD- same as before
P1166 &1167- O2- same as before
P0340-Camshaft Position Sensor- !!!???
Car is running ok, replaced the battery (sitting a long time), but now what?
OK, so I noticed that most of the little descriptions on the Autozone printouts said, "open or short circuit" so I took a close look at my fuse panels, looking for a speedo fuse. Found an Alternator fuse. Took it out, and it was burned! Replaced the fuse. The speedo was routed through the alternator cct so that you notice when it goes out? Should I go through ALL my fuses to see if an open condition is sending these codes?
In my search and research on this forum, I found a reference to the ELD malfunction being related to O2 sensor code. Replacing the o2 sensors is still the last thing I am going to do. (Don't give a fat frog's fanny about emissions)
Today is snowing, so I won't do anything today. My next step is to remove/inspect the ELD. Any advice on what to look for? What I really want to do is get those CEL's cleared, so I can see what is currently wrong after my two repairs- the TB with all sensors (incl. IAC), and the discovered fuse. May go to a local mechanic and give him 20 bucks to clear the codes. Any better ideas?
This post is loaded with questions. If you can answer any of them, I'll mark it down and try it.
Thanks, Boys!

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

yeah it seems like there are wiring issues to deal with. go around and check all the fuses, and also inspect the wiring connections at the alternator and battery. camshaft sensor is more serious and i think that should be the first one you fix.

redmenace2002

Well, hold on a dang ol' minute. The camshaft sensor is the least of my worries. I think it is a false reading. Mainly because it just popped up without driving it or messing with it. I'm starting to think that there is nothing wrong with any of the sensors- it is the wiring or the fuses. How can 5 different sensors crap the bed all at once? The wheel speed sensor thing was resolved with a fuse.

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

when did this whole fiasco start? you say you let it sit for a month, and then problems start happening? it almost sounds like a mouse chewed some wires up. cause i cant imagine all these problems out of nowhere just letting the car sit. have you done some looking to see that everything is normal under the hood, and did you find out why the alternator fuse was burnt? fuses dont blow unless there is a problem like short circuit or too much current (possibly from bad alternator). have you done a charging system check recently?

redmenace2002

Fiasco!?!? That's uncalled for. If you re-read the intro, it started with a legitimate problem- the idle was surging. It was undriveable. Is it possible the sensor was ok, but the wire to it was broke? Well, I guess so. I had my hands all over the wire loom and didn't notice any breaks or pinches.

The mouse angle is interesting. Again, if you re-read I mentioned that the car has been barely moved in 6-8 months. I found evidence of mice in the cabin. I've inspected the engine compartment pretty well. Could always do better if I had it on a lift. I'll inspect the lines from and to the alternator more thoroughly. BUT, what about the so-called Camshaft Position Sensor? It was not out 3 months ago, but suddenly came back as a code.

When I get the ELD out and inspected, I will take a closer look at the main loom on the backside of the fuse box and on the driver's side engine compartment. Here in Connecticut it has been raining and snowing for 2 days straight. I don't have a garage bay or a lift. Next week I will also get under it and trace back those leads to the 2 Oxy sensors and see if they lead to one spot that might be damaged.

A question about Scan tools. The Autozone used a little handheld. If I get a shop with a better one (say, Snap-on) will it give more details about exactly what's wrong? "open cct", "short cct", "hi voltage", "lo voltage", etc....
Keep your head up, Gearbox, it's not a lost cause!

gearbox

iTrader: (95)

lol sorry, by fiasco i meant all the things going wrong at the same time. you may want to try and trace the cam sensor wiring, it may be broken or torn somewhere. if you think mice were in the cabin, its a sure bet they went other places too. and it could be a nightmare to figure out what he chewed up. this is the time when a service manual comes in handy, because it has troubleshooting tips you can use to see if a sensor is really bad, or if theres a problem with wiring. as for scan tools, a cheap $40 one will get the job done. most of those expensive ones do not even have the right description, you have to cross check the code below, because hondas have different set of codes.

https://www.civicforums.com/forums/3...-ii-codes.html

redmenace2002

Hey, hey, hey!
Sorry I never posted a resolution. I must have gotten hella busy afterward. So, I'm inspecting the hell out of the accessible electrical system. I'm inside the cabin, looking at the intererior fuse box. Ready to order an ELD, but am still on the track of what caused the problem. (couldn't be Honda part failure!). I notice that the alternator has its own fuse so I pull it to inspect it. It's blown! Replace immediately, start car 3 seconds after that, runs fine. Drive for a coupla days, get it scanned at AutoZone, no more ELD code (nor O2 code, nor CPS code, yada yada yada) So the blown fuse showed up as a ELD failure code?!?! I had a feeling all those codes were baloney. How can so many things go wrong at once? The dealership would have happily replaced all those parts, even though they weren't the problems. Food for thought. Final-final resolution is that I sold the car. I'm moving overseas and have no need of a car, nor a storage headache.When I return to the US, I'm hoping to have the scratch for a new Honda CR-Z Reminds me of all my favorite Civics! Thanks for the help, couldn't have done it without you.