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wouldnt this be a 14 sec car still - even with all those mods

 
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Wicked pics! Let us know how the 9700rpm redline is!

 
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According to my hp calculator (which isn't always accurate, but very close) It would be low 13's with my car's current weight WITHOUT the 100 shot. Just so I know I'm figuring this right... what does the 2001 ex weigh exactly? I have a carbon fiber front end.. only the hood is on now, the rest will be installed in a few weeks.

 
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plus, it ALWAYS depends on the driver.. I saw a post on here about a dude that did a high 15 in his stock civic. I'll also have a higher redline than most cars I run into at the stoplight.. it makes a difference when you're still pulling on someone in second and they're already in third, I do it in my GSR all the time against sohc civics.

 
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Ok, as much as I want to believe that this D17A2 set-up will put about 230 to the wheels, I just can't believe it.

I mean, the many-times over-rated B16 has a hard time putting out those numbers, how can our motor with the only advantage being the extra .1 liter, put out that much horsepower? Especially when you consider what the B16 has over us, the extra OHC, being a LEV car...it just dosen't add up.

Has the car been dynoed yet? OR are there what they expect?

BTW, if we were to have a 230 wheelhorsepower car, that would easily be good for 13 second runs, probaly high 12's on a good day with a good driver. An average driver with the nitrous should be able to pull mid 12's, and a good driver on a good day should be able to do high 11's, low 12's.

 
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"As much as you want to believe it, I just can't believe it." hwoody77.

Thats the same thing I said about you running 15.8 bone @ss stock. Hahahahaha

Some people these days!

 
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kms still hasn't dyno'd it and boost said he'll post the graphs when they do

to the guy that said 14's, if the car does get 230 to the wheels, then it would definitely be in 13's, and with drag radials at the strip it would be on

 
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BTW, when asked why go this way it's pretty simple.

A turbo setup will cost about 3k(For argument's sake), but then there's all the hidden costs. Turbo timer, boost controller, boost gauge, ETC.

Turbo cars almost always require more maintenance(Sp?) then a high strung NA car. Even with a stand alone ECU like Hondata, which you only NEED to really program once for optimal results.

JoeB16, would you mind telling me what extra maintenance comes along with independent throttle bodies? I cna see where you would say a stand alone ECU would require more maintenance, BUT once you set the ECU, it will not require more maintenance. A stand alone ECU adds complexity, but it also lets you tune to a very fine degree. It gives you a lot more attention to detail then just throwing on a turbo...

Plus, there is much more respect for an fast all motor 4 cylinder, even though there is more cost.

Also, the sound of 9700 RPMs must be intoxicating.

 
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Well there's a difference between these two things.

First, I provided a timeslip and videos. I see a few pictures of a fully done motor, but that really dosen't prove anything. I also backed it up with a 16.0, 16.1, and a 16.2 timeslip.

Second, other people have came extremely close to my times on stock or near stock set-ups.

Third, do you remember what happened with Gude? Where they expected the 45 wheel horsepower gain? And what ended up happening?

Now, the biggest point. Seeing people run low 16's and a few running high 15's it is quite possibly to see how I achieved my time. BUT, I've seen dyno's of a fully worked B16's that have trouble competing with this setup. Are you to tell me that a D17 has more potential then a B16? I've seen dyno's of D17's that show pathetic gains...now maybe they solved the problem and it is achieveable. I've never seen a dyno of a SOHC VTEC D-series motor run anything close to this through all motor means.

I WANT to believe this, of course. Maybe I should change what I wrote to...As much as you want to believe it, I highly doubt it.

 
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Alright, I was wondering when a reply like this one would finally show up. The car has not been dynoed.. KMS will let me know numbers as soon as it's done, IT'S STILL IN THE TUNING STAGES. they are EXPECTING 250 at the crank.. I'm hoping for this as well.. not depending on it. There's only one way to find out, and that's to get the work done, and dyno the car. There are always guinea pigs. Again, to the guy that said 14 seconds, a WRX as 227 at the crank.. pulls very low 14's stock.. i've heard of guys doing 13.9's. A b-16 that has new internals 'n such does have a hard time pulling those numbers, but I've seen with my own eyes a naturally aspirated civic si built by a machine shop that only deals with racing engines (similar to KMS) and the car is doing low 12's. It's all about tuning, and know how when it comes to building a motor... you can't just throw some pisons, port and polish, had some cams, and throw a header on and get maximum output. It takes some knowledge. I'd bet my car that a b-16 re-worked just like the d-17 in the pics would put out higher numbers than that. I won't bet that the d-17 will get 250 at the crank, but John (who's done this for a while, and put a nsx drivetrain on a crx) says the car feels like it's putting out numbers close to that before tuning. All I know is that this project will either make it or break it for NA enthusiasts... because anything you can do to the D17 has been done, I will get more details on fuel upgrades, and compression ratio.

 
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I don't doubt your times one bit, I didn't doubt it before you posted proof.. I've grown up around drag racing... I've seen bigger miracles. There's still doubt in my mind too... the D17 will never have more potential than any b-series motor... that fact was established a long time ago. It's not often you'll see a sohc motor pull high numbers on a dyno, or low numbers on the track.. but this motor is built for racing, not street rodding... it's ok for the street, but I only have 12,000 miles on my car and it's over a year old. I won't drive it long distances, or try to stomp it at every light. The only time there would be more maintenence in a na motor over a turbo motor is when something goes out internally, a lot of time there's a domino effect. A guy at work broke a valve spring.. next thing you know there's a hole in his piston and metal shavings in his intake manifold. His motor is history. Then again, turbos are known to blow motors when misused. Let's just face the facts, anytime you change things about your car, expect something to not go right.

 
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I just got off of the phone with John at KMS. The compression ratio is 15 to 1. He also informed me that he was aware of the problem with Gude, and that he researched the head before re-working it... told me a lot of things they did wrong on their head package (I get lost in technical terms, sorry) One thing I do remember is that he said Gude only regrinds their cams, KMS does weld-ons. The motor really isn't street friendly as far as commuting long distances, I just want to remind ya'll of that again. The pistons in the car are the ones you see in the "rotation" box on his website. He does have more "streetable" pistons for the D17 though. He said that this was one of his most complicated, hardest projects because the head sucks, and so does the manifold. I inquired about stroker kits, he said it could get expensive because of going through prototype phases.. but if there were like 20 people interested he could do it. He wanted me to ask if anyone on this board would be interested in doing a group buy on anything: Cams, pistons, rods, valve sleeves, anything. He did it for an acura forum a while back and manufactured strut bars for the legend. So, if anyone here has a different package they are interested in, or wants to do a group buy on something... Let me know on this thread, or through Pm. This could be an opportunity for some of you to try out the cam, or anything else to see how you like it.

 
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holy ****! that is obviously not a daily driver because my *** will have to constantly fill up on race gas

dammit dammit dammit

i would love to go NA, but obviously this just took a turn for the worst. and as far as friendlier pistons go, if i were to do that i'd wouldn't be surprised if it would be under 200 at the wheels

 
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It's not really as un-streatable as you think. You can run it on 93 octane.

 
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that CR is way too high for 93octane ( detonation...engine life )

230hp@wheel not probable...more like 200-210 which would still be very good for our cars
--->not probable due to our single cam (very hard to get the 230 without the nitrous)

if it reached 230 by any miracle, the low end torque would be terrible because of the cam...which would make it perfect for racing but terrible for street driving, like let's say the stage 3 cams from skunk2 that are available for my friend's itr

 
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The numbers John gave (15:1, 250 at the crank) are estimates given on the full race version of the first motor he built which took him 3 months. That car is meant to run on race gas, and meant for the track. The more streetable version which can run on pump gas has a 12:5 compression ratio, and very, very similar hp/torque numbers. He was very sure that the streetable version of that motor would have no problem eating an rsx-s alive. Even saying 250 at the crank is a loose estimate, and he refuses to advertise what he truley thinks it might be due to the bullsh** it will stir up, because it could very well be lower than he expects.. but not impossible for it to be higher than expected. To those that have been brainwashed by the negativity on this bored, having a sohc vtec motor is not a bad thing. The only difference in a dohc and a sohc is you can change and adjust the overlap in a dohc, and you have larger ports. With our STOCK cams we basically have NO overlap at all, he fixed that problem with the cam they made by changing the lob centers. If you do some research (since all of you are web surfers) you can find that a lot of the worlds fastest civics are sohc. There was one in superstreet a while back that was doing low 11's, even ran a 10.9 on a couple passes. He read what was being said on the board, and saw the doubt.. he said if there's anyone in georgia near him, he'll meet you at the track with his NA civic. It's an older generation civic, with a sohc accord motor under the hood. He's running 12's all day long, he blew a gasket last week while in third gear, coasted to the end and still ran a 13.7. Don't flame me for this post, call KMS, talk to John.. he's much more knowledgeable than me obviously on the subject.. and has been racing for a while longer than me as well. After my recent conversation, I realize that being without my car for a month, and spending 5 grand is going to well worth it. By the way, for who ever it was asking fuel questions, the first thing they do is replace the injectors with larger ones.

 
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Okay, the RSX-S get's 200 at the crank correct? Slightly larger displacement, and it's DOHC. Not nearly as tricked out as the D17 we've been discussing. So how is it not possible for the motor we're discussing can't out run the rsx-s all day long? It's the crappy a** cam we're given that is the major culprit to the ULEV, so with a more aggressive cam, and ITB's.. I don't see how it's still a weak ULEV civic. I'm not forcing you guys to believe something when all you have is a few pictures to look at, just don't knock something until you do your homework. The KMS civic isn't another Gude. A motor is a motor, there's not some gypsy curse on the D17 to where it's doomed to be slow forever, it just needed a smarter technician to tune it.

 
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There is alot of good info going on right here. But i think I still want to go the turbo route. You said we could get sort of a group buy going on for different things. Do they offer parts for our bottem ends for turbo applications . If they will Id be interested.

 
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He said he'll do group buys on anything besides turbo kits themselves because there's five other companies working on that right now and it's not his thing. He said they will build motors for turbo applications though. So, the answer to your question is YES.

 
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15:1 and you are running a 100 shot nitrous system?

BOOM! [IMG]i/expressions/demon.gif[/IMG]

 
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Actually, yeah.. the KMS civic is running a stage two nitrous system. Apparently it's worked out okay for them. Just remember that they aren't running on stock internals. You've never seen an old chevelle or nova run a 100 shot? hmm.

 
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The motor is very strong, b u i l t f o r r a c i n g. The version going under my hood as a 12:5 CR.. not sure If i'll ever run a 100 shot.

 
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with a 15:1 compression ratio? No.

 
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"ok dude"

 
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One tends to LOWER compression ratios when they intend to run large ammounts of N20 and or have forced induction.

 
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ever heard of timing curves? Well, it's programmed into the ecu 50shot, then 50 shot. As much air goes in, fuel goes out.

 
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"ONE" tends to know what he's doing when he takes three months of his life to build a motor like that one.
and "ONE" tends to not blow the entire project by just hookin' up a 100 shot without knowing what he's doing. If some kid off the street had his motor rebuilt, then just had a 100 shot installed later on, yeah.. that would be a stupid move. Leave it to the pro's kids!

 
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the point is reliability and praticality. You can go ahead and map fuel and timing curves down to the Nth degree. Fact of the matter is that its more trouble then its worth. My only point is that for that application, running nitrous oxide is redicilous for anything buy a drag only car.

 
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I totally and completely agree, I'd never recommend one of my customers to even buy a 50 shot if I knew they had a compression ratio that high. That's why a truley NA motor is better off staying NA. For me, I'm not sure I'll EVER apply n20.. I'm happy with the motor on it's own even though my compression ratio is slightly lower.

 
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well i just hope everyone reading this thread understands that.