Finally someone is doing the K20A2 swap Part 2
2k1civic.com O. G.
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,165
Likes: 0
From: PhILLy, Pennsylvania, US
Rep Power: 334 
they are documenting everything they do rite? i hope they do, and do it well.. cuz once this swap is complete and working, im sure dozens of ppl will be lining up for this to be done,
Good to finally have some pics.. mAdd Props to RAYY!!! [IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG]
Good to finally have some pics.. mAdd Props to RAYY!!! [IMG]i/expressions/beer_yum.gif[/IMG]
Registered!!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Rep Power: 0 From all of my conversations (in person and over the phone) and e-mails with Jeff, he has assured me that they have most of the difficulties under control and have a handle on everything. I don't think he ever mentioned anything to the effect that he thought this swap was 'impossible', because they definitely are focused on getting it to work.
Whether he's been just falsely reassuring me the entire time, or now he's trying to do a CYA job now to account for the rather lengthy delays, I don't know. And I don't really care as long as the job gets done. I guess we'll find out pretty soon when they get the motor in the car and start trying to fire it up.
Once again, thanks for the updates Ray. It is usually pretty difficult for me to get a hold of Jeff over the phone (as he's in and out of the shop and talking to customers all day long). And there is a limit to how much you can communicate through email.
Whether he's been just falsely reassuring me the entire time, or now he's trying to do a CYA job now to account for the rather lengthy delays, I don't know. And I don't really care as long as the job gets done. I guess we'll find out pretty soon when they get the motor in the car and start trying to fire it up.
Once again, thanks for the updates Ray. It is usually pretty difficult for me to get a hold of Jeff over the phone (as he's in and out of the shop and talking to customers all day long). And there is a limit to how much you can communicate through email.
Super Member
Registered!!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Rep Power: 0 I just spoke to Jeff, and it looks like we are on track. To sum it up, everything is falling into place, the wiring should be pretty much plug-n-play, and I am looking to pick up the car either the weekend immediate following July 4th or the weekend after. I've gotta run now, but there are lots of interesting tidbits and details I learned from talking with Jeff that I will post when I get back late tonight.
Registered!!
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,034
Likes: 0
From: Plano, Texas, US
Rep Power: 0 I'm sorry dont get me wrong, I think this is great, putting a K20 in the civ is awesome I wish I could do it, but I dont want you to set yourself up for this awesome dilusion of a speed demon of a car when you get it back, the car will be moderately fast when you get it, just dont expect much man, now when we put a 20 PSI turbo on that puppy then we'll be talking some speed. ANd now you hvae a heads up on getting a nice turbo because theres gonna be alot more performance parts for the K20 then there will ever be for the d17 block.
Registered!!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Rep Power: 0 Ok, just to recap my conversation with Jeff this afternoon:
Right now IB has been doing more welding work to modify the RSX crossmember to fit properly onto my car. Yes you heard correctly - not only does my stock crossmember not fit, but they also need to make modifications to the RSX crossmember to get that to fit. A big reason why everything has been taking so darn long is that it took almost a month for IB to fully determine what kinds of subframe modifications need to be made so that the motor and tranny will hook up correctly with the rest of the car.
Jeff says that they've had to do approximately 6 hrs of welding a day for 3 days straight to properly modify the subframe and install the new mounts. I mentioned to him that HASport is planning to unveil a motor mount kit + brackets designed for the K20A2 swap into an EM Civic, and Jeff replied that he has a hard time believing that anybody could use a motor mount kit to do this swap. Because in his opinion the entire subframe basically has to be replaced.
In short, Jeff says that the swap has been a MAJOR BEOTCH and he pretty much guarantees that no one else will be doing this swap anytime soon. Why? Well first of all there is the issue of purchasing the additional subframe parts (including the crossmember). IB is able to acquire parts at wholesale cost (lucky for me and my wallet), but Jeff says that any other shop would have to pay up to $1000 for these parts.
Also, Jeff kind of doesn't want people to take pics of the work-in-progress. His main concern is that his shop has had to spend countless hours of custom work on the subframe, and as such, he considers a lot of the work they do for this swap 'proprietary material'. I think the shots that Ray did were ok; Jeff's main concern is that if pics of the new RSX/Civic subframe get out, then basically anybody with an Internet connection can just steal IB's work and make money off of it. He made it clear that plenty of pics will be taken and made available once the swap is complete, however.
The good news is that once they finish attaching the last few mounts (which should happen by the end of the week), the motor should drop in and wire up with little problem. The new 7th gen Civic is actually very good for wiring up different engines, because the wiring harness is not located right next to the dash (as is the case with previous gen Civics). There was some additional stuff he told me that I can't remember at the moment. But basically according to Jeff, ANY other engine that can fit in the engine bay will wire up and work correctly. Call it Honda's version of plug-n-play.
I am expecting to pick up the car either the 4th of July weekend or the weekend after. Whew, that is a lot of information to digest. This msg is just the recap. I will do my analysis + comments in the following msg.
Right now IB has been doing more welding work to modify the RSX crossmember to fit properly onto my car. Yes you heard correctly - not only does my stock crossmember not fit, but they also need to make modifications to the RSX crossmember to get that to fit. A big reason why everything has been taking so darn long is that it took almost a month for IB to fully determine what kinds of subframe modifications need to be made so that the motor and tranny will hook up correctly with the rest of the car.
Jeff says that they've had to do approximately 6 hrs of welding a day for 3 days straight to properly modify the subframe and install the new mounts. I mentioned to him that HASport is planning to unveil a motor mount kit + brackets designed for the K20A2 swap into an EM Civic, and Jeff replied that he has a hard time believing that anybody could use a motor mount kit to do this swap. Because in his opinion the entire subframe basically has to be replaced.
In short, Jeff says that the swap has been a MAJOR BEOTCH and he pretty much guarantees that no one else will be doing this swap anytime soon. Why? Well first of all there is the issue of purchasing the additional subframe parts (including the crossmember). IB is able to acquire parts at wholesale cost (lucky for me and my wallet), but Jeff says that any other shop would have to pay up to $1000 for these parts.
Also, Jeff kind of doesn't want people to take pics of the work-in-progress. His main concern is that his shop has had to spend countless hours of custom work on the subframe, and as such, he considers a lot of the work they do for this swap 'proprietary material'. I think the shots that Ray did were ok; Jeff's main concern is that if pics of the new RSX/Civic subframe get out, then basically anybody with an Internet connection can just steal IB's work and make money off of it. He made it clear that plenty of pics will be taken and made available once the swap is complete, however.
The good news is that once they finish attaching the last few mounts (which should happen by the end of the week), the motor should drop in and wire up with little problem. The new 7th gen Civic is actually very good for wiring up different engines, because the wiring harness is not located right next to the dash (as is the case with previous gen Civics). There was some additional stuff he told me that I can't remember at the moment. But basically according to Jeff, ANY other engine that can fit in the engine bay will wire up and work correctly. Call it Honda's version of plug-n-play.
I am expecting to pick up the car either the 4th of July weekend or the weekend after. Whew, that is a lot of information to digest. This msg is just the recap. I will do my analysis + comments in the following msg.
Registered!!
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
From: Seattle, Washington, US
Rep Power: 0 I admire you for doing the swap man, but in the end, it has cost you a lot of time, and a lot of money. I personally would have taken the cash and put it down on a faster car.
I look forward to seeing your ride on the front cover of a mag.....
L8tr
I look forward to seeing your ride on the front cover of a mag.....
L8tr
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
From: Southern Cali Cerritos, California, US
Rep Power: 0 Glad to hear the explanation they gave you.
It was basically the same information I heard while they were explaining it to other customers (who were getting a H22). Like I said, they said its been a real BlTCH but they seem determined to make it work. I give them credit.
One of the workers seemed really frustrated stating " That damn engine was not ever meant to be in there" and said its going to take ALOT of work but we will try our best.
About the pics, I didn't ask anyone for permission and I just started snapping away. The other workers were busy, and they were aware of me taking it but nobody said anything. But I doubt that will change once they really start doing the actual swap.
Oh well, I will still probaly head down there every weekend.
BTW for those wondering, I asked how much it would cost for the swap and one of the workers told me it was running at least $2000.00.
Also htown, once it is ready and everything and you head down here, hit me up. Would sure love to be one of the first people in the fastest 7thGen ride on here.
Ray
It was basically the same information I heard while they were explaining it to other customers (who were getting a H22). Like I said, they said its been a real BlTCH but they seem determined to make it work. I give them credit.
One of the workers seemed really frustrated stating " That damn engine was not ever meant to be in there" and said its going to take ALOT of work but we will try our best.
About the pics, I didn't ask anyone for permission and I just started snapping away. The other workers were busy, and they were aware of me taking it but nobody said anything. But I doubt that will change once they really start doing the actual swap.
Oh well, I will still probaly head down there every weekend.
BTW for those wondering, I asked how much it would cost for the swap and one of the workers told me it was running at least $2000.00.
Also htown, once it is ready and everything and you head down here, hit me up. Would sure love to be one of the first people in the fastest 7thGen ride on here.
Ray
Registered!!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Rep Power: 0 Color commentary:
There is usually more than one way to skin a cat. I'm not saying that IB is wrong or that the way they've chosen to do it is incorrect, but I'd like to at least leave the possibility open that perhaps HASport has figured out a way to accomplish this swap using the stock 7th gen Civic subframe. Jeff did mention that several shops have tried this swap and have failed. I then asked him about specific examples (such as Area 51 Fabrications trying to fit a JDM Type R motor into a 7th gen). His responses led me to infer that using the stock 7thgen subframe leads to fitment problems involving the header not being able to match up correctly with the rest of the exhaust system. The way that IB is doing it, everything will fit fine; however, they will have to make a 'slight' modification to my exhaust system (cutting it in half and rewelding it back again). I will be able to keep the stock catalytic converter as well as my GReddy EVO exhaust.
One thing is clear, though. Despite the fact that the RSX and 7th gen Civic both share the same chassis, their subframes differ dramatically and body work is needed to get the motor and tranny to mount correctly. Again - this is just the experience that IB has had to undergo over the past month and a half or so. If HASport comes out with their motor mount kit that does not require subframe modification, we will know that there is a different (and hopefully easier) way to go about this.
I certainly understand Jeff's concern and I do respect his right to keep his proprietary trade secrets proprietary. IB has spent a lot of time and effort to make this thing work (and to be the first shop to successfully finish this swap). They should have every right to reap the benefits and to make money by doing this swap for other individuals. Put yourself in Jeff's shoes and I'm sure you would feel the exact same way. Jeff is a pretty cool guy, and he did not object to Ray coming in to take pics (I guess he just didn't want to be a **** and say no and shoo someone off). But he made it clear to me that he prefers that people not take any pics of any of IB's projects in progress.
Jeff actually asked me with an incredulous tone in his voice, "Are you telling me that when you had a shop in Houston (Carboy) look at it they said the motor would drop right in but the wiring would be a problem???" This sounds pretty funny now, because IB's experience has been the exact opposite. Total pain to get the motor to mount correctly, but the wiring should be a piece of cake. He even reitereated that a B-series motor would fit in and wire up correctly. But an H-series or F-series motor is probably too large to fit in our engine bays. Again, any engine B-series or H-series engine swap would still require subframe modifications to fit correctly, according to IB.
On the bright side, Jeff says any bolt-ons (including the upcoming RSX superchargers and turbochargers) will fit exactly the same on my car as they would on an RSX. In fact, my car will essentially be the same as an RSX (same chassis, same engine, and same suspension).
On one hand, I'm thrilled that things are going to be finished soon and I'll be getting my car back. On the other hand, I'm a bit concerned that, with all the additional work that IB has had to do, whether this swap will become feasible and easy enough to be the common swap that I'd envisioned it to be. I surely hope that when this swap is finished, this won't be the final chapter in the RSX -> 7thgen Civic book. I'm still holding out hope that HASport and other performance companies will find ways to improve and refine this process.
Stay tuned...
Quote
[hr]
Jeff says that they've had to do approximately 6 hrs of welding a day for 3 days straight to properly modify the subframe and install the new mounts. I mentioned to him that HASport is planning to unveil a motor mount kit + brackets designed for the K20A2 swap into an EM Civic, and Jeff replied that he has a hard time believing that anybody could use a motor mount kit to do this swap. Because in his opinion the entire subframe basically has to be replaced.
[hr]
[hr]
Jeff says that they've had to do approximately 6 hrs of welding a day for 3 days straight to properly modify the subframe and install the new mounts. I mentioned to him that HASport is planning to unveil a motor mount kit + brackets designed for the K20A2 swap into an EM Civic, and Jeff replied that he has a hard time believing that anybody could use a motor mount kit to do this swap. Because in his opinion the entire subframe basically has to be replaced.
[hr]
One thing is clear, though. Despite the fact that the RSX and 7th gen Civic both share the same chassis, their subframes differ dramatically and body work is needed to get the motor and tranny to mount correctly. Again - this is just the experience that IB has had to undergo over the past month and a half or so. If HASport comes out with their motor mount kit that does not require subframe modification, we will know that there is a different (and hopefully easier) way to go about this.
Quote
[hr]
Also, Jeff kind of doesn't want people to take pics of the work-in-progress. His main concern is that his shop has had to spend countless hours of custom work on the subframe, and as such, he considers a lot of the work they do for this swap 'proprietary material'. I think the shots that Ray did were ok; Jeff's main concern is that if pics of the new RSX/Civic subframe get out, then basically anybody with an Internet connection can just steal IB's work and make money off of it. He made it clear that plenty of pics will be taken and made available once the swap is complete, however.
[hr]
[hr]
Also, Jeff kind of doesn't want people to take pics of the work-in-progress. His main concern is that his shop has had to spend countless hours of custom work on the subframe, and as such, he considers a lot of the work they do for this swap 'proprietary material'. I think the shots that Ray did were ok; Jeff's main concern is that if pics of the new RSX/Civic subframe get out, then basically anybody with an Internet connection can just steal IB's work and make money off of it. He made it clear that plenty of pics will be taken and made available once the swap is complete, however.
[hr]
Quote
[hr]
The good news is that once they finish attaching the last few mounts (which should happen by the end of the week), the motor should drop in and wire up with little problem. The new 7th gen Civic is actually very good for wiring up different engines, because the wiring harness is not located right next to the dash (as is the case with previous gen Civics). There was some additional stuff he told me that I can't remember at the moment. But basically according to Jeff, ANY other engine that can fit in the engine bay will wire up and work correctly. Call it Honda's version of plug-n-play.
[hr]
[hr]
The good news is that once they finish attaching the last few mounts (which should happen by the end of the week), the motor should drop in and wire up with little problem. The new 7th gen Civic is actually very good for wiring up different engines, because the wiring harness is not located right next to the dash (as is the case with previous gen Civics). There was some additional stuff he told me that I can't remember at the moment. But basically according to Jeff, ANY other engine that can fit in the engine bay will wire up and work correctly. Call it Honda's version of plug-n-play.
[hr]
On the bright side, Jeff says any bolt-ons (including the upcoming RSX superchargers and turbochargers) will fit exactly the same on my car as they would on an RSX. In fact, my car will essentially be the same as an RSX (same chassis, same engine, and same suspension).
On one hand, I'm thrilled that things are going to be finished soon and I'll be getting my car back. On the other hand, I'm a bit concerned that, with all the additional work that IB has had to do, whether this swap will become feasible and easy enough to be the common swap that I'd envisioned it to be. I surely hope that when this swap is finished, this won't be the final chapter in the RSX -> 7thgen Civic book. I'm still holding out hope that HASport and other performance companies will find ways to improve and refine this process.
Stay tuned...
Registered!!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Rep Power: 0
Quote
[hr]Originally posted by: WhiteRiceBoi
I'm sorry dont get me wrong, I think this is great, putting a K20 in the civ is awesome I wish I could do it, but I dont want you to set yourself up for this awesome dilusion of a speed demon of a car when you get it back, the car will be moderately fast when you get it, just dont expect much man, now when we put a 20 PSI turbo on that puppy then we'll be talking some speed. ANd now you hvae a heads up on getting a nice turbo because theres gonna be alot more performance parts for the K20 then there will ever be for the d17 block.[hr]
[hr]Originally posted by: WhiteRiceBoi
I'm sorry dont get me wrong, I think this is great, putting a K20 in the civ is awesome I wish I could do it, but I dont want you to set yourself up for this awesome dilusion of a speed demon of a car when you get it back, the car will be moderately fast when you get it, just dont expect much man, now when we put a 20 PSI turbo on that puppy then we'll be talking some speed. ANd now you hvae a heads up on getting a nice turbo because theres gonna be alot more performance parts for the K20 then there will ever be for the d17 block.[hr]
TODA and JUN should also have a whole suite of all-motor performance parts available soon. The power potential of the K series motor can't be denied and there will be lots of things to choose from by the middle of next year.
Registered!!
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,034
Likes: 0
From: Plano, Texas, US
Rep Power: 0 hehe ok htown im glad youre realistic alot of people are all like oh man after this my car is gonna run low 12s....and im jus tlike 
no dude its not, this guy got a JDM H22 in his EG hatchback, now thats a badass motor in a small *** car, and it barely ran high 13s..., my estimate after the transplant youll be running high to mid 14s in the quarter, which is admirable for our civics, make us proud bro.
no dude its not, this guy got a JDM H22 in his EG hatchback, now thats a badass motor in a small *** car, and it barely ran high 13s..., my estimate after the transplant youll be running high to mid 14s in the quarter, which is admirable for our civics, make us proud bro. Registered!!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Rep Power: 0
Quote
[hr]Originally posted by: SugarRay
Glad to hear the explanation they gave you.
It was basically the same information I heard while they were explaining it to other customers (who were getting a H22). Like I said, they said its been a real BlTCH but they seem determined to make it work. I give them credit.
[hr]
[hr]Originally posted by: SugarRay
Glad to hear the explanation they gave you.
It was basically the same information I heard while they were explaining it to other customers (who were getting a H22). Like I said, they said its been a real BlTCH but they seem determined to make it work. I give them credit.
[hr]
Quote
[hr]
One of the workers seemed really frustrated stating " That damn engine was not ever meant to be in there" and said its going to take ALOT of work but we will try our best.
[hr]
[hr]
One of the workers seemed really frustrated stating " That damn engine was not ever meant to be in there" and said its going to take ALOT of work but we will try our best.
[hr]
Quote
[hr]
BTW for those wondering, I asked how much it would cost for the swap and one of the workers told me it was running at least $2000.00.
[hr]
[hr]
BTW for those wondering, I asked how much it would cost for the swap and one of the workers told me it was running at least $2000.00.
[hr]
Quote
[hr]
Also htown, once it is ready and everything and you head down here, hit me up. Would sure love to be one of the first people in the fastest 7thGen ride on here.
Ray[hr]
[hr]
Also htown, once it is ready and everything and you head down here, hit me up. Would sure love to be one of the first people in the fastest 7thGen ride on here.
Ray[hr]
DIY King
iTrader: (61)
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 11,469
Likes: 0
From: Shrewsbury, Massachusetts, US
Rep Power: 419 Everything sounds great. One thing came to mind. If they cut the stock exhaust close to the header, then have them use a flexible piece of exhaust tubing. This will eliminate some rattle. You can get this stuff from www.jcwhitney.com for cheap. Something I'de do anyway. I really hope that an RSX-S swap becomes commonplace for 7th gen civics. I would love to be able to buy everything I need myself and do the swap myself. That's quite a dream. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG] Of course, as long as I don't spend so much so as to just buy a new RSX. Then it's all good. [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]
Registered!!
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
From: Orange, California, US
Rep Power: 0
Quote
[hr]Sure, I'll let people know when and where I'll be down there. Maybe we can schedule a 7thgencivic mini-meet or something. I'll also be heading to the Bay Area sometime after picking up my car. I left a bag of 30 of my favorite CD's + a raincoat over at my friend's apartment in San Francisco about 6 months ago, and I really need to retrieve them. Ideally if the car is ready by 4th of July weekend I'll be able to spend Friday of that weekend in LA and be in SF on Saturday. That will give me enough time to return to Houston by mid-day Monday.[hr]
[hr]Sure, I'll let people know when and where I'll be down there. Maybe we can schedule a 7thgencivic mini-meet or something. I'll also be heading to the Bay Area sometime after picking up my car. I left a bag of 30 of my favorite CD's + a raincoat over at my friend's apartment in San Francisco about 6 months ago, and I really need to retrieve them. Ideally if the car is ready by 4th of July weekend I'll be able to spend Friday of that weekend in LA and be in SF on Saturday. That will give me enough time to return to Houston by mid-day Monday.[hr]
I kind of dont want to ride in it because it will just remind me of how slow my car is
Registered!!
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,346
Likes: 0
From: Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
Rep Power: 0 They told you that you could put a B16/B18 in our cars? But not an H22? I cant see eather of them going into our cars? If you can find some more info on getting a b16/b18 to fit in our cars let me know. i would be very willing to drop 2 grand into getting a b18 in my car.
Registered!!
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,609
Likes: 0
From: Houston, Texas, US
Rep Power: 0 Man I haven't been reading your posts about this for awhile Aaron! Sounds good, here's hopping its ready and your back in town in time for the meet (and of crouse 1/4 mile runs at Baytown if your up to it)! [IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/IMG]
Registered!!
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,512
Likes: 0
From: Portland,OR / Vancouver,WA, Washington, US
Rep Power: 0 Nice H-town, I always love reading the new info.......
And like someone said, you are a patient *****, this whole process has to be nerve-wrecking.....
I hope for the best on this whole ordeal.
[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]
And like someone said, you are a patient *****, this whole process has to be nerve-wrecking.....
I hope for the best on this whole ordeal.
[IMG]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/IMG]
Escaped Convict
iTrader: (30)
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 6,450
Likes: 0
From: Westminster, California, US
Rep Power: 368 hey if you guys do plan out a meet or etc. then thats cool...
I'd drive my *** there to check it out... (its in CA right? cuz I'm in socal too...)
anyhow htown, props again to you for spending the time and money... you have been waiting forever, I hope the results are great!
I'd drive my *** there to check it out... (its in CA right? cuz I'm in socal too...)
anyhow htown, props again to you for spending the time and money... you have been waiting forever, I hope the results are great!
Registered!!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,324
Likes: 0
From: , Other, ZEBRA
Rep Power: 0
Quote
[hr]Originally posted by: 01Ex
They told you that you could put a B16/B18 in our cars? But not an H22? I cant see eather of them going into our cars? If you can find some more info on getting a b16/b18 to fit in our cars let me know. i would be very willing to drop 2 grand into getting a b18 in my car.[hr]
[hr]Originally posted by: 01Ex
They told you that you could put a B16/B18 in our cars? But not an H22? I cant see eather of them going into our cars? If you can find some more info on getting a b16/b18 to fit in our cars let me know. i would be very willing to drop 2 grand into getting a b18 in my car.[hr]
